What do you think, in which directions do the arrows have to go?
Put it in a box.
Take it out of a box.
Account for gravity.
Done.
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fwiw, I primarily see this where I'm downloading podcasts. I've never really seen an up arrow, but down arrow means download to me and is a convention I've seen more than one podcasting interface use..
For references, examples of down arrows on various podcast interfaces include:
https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/martina-navratilova-tyler-cowen-tennis-czechoslovakia-lgbt-73ee82582ad
https://www.theinvestorspodcast.com/podcast/
http://wakingup.libsyn.com/podcast/120-what-is-and-what-matters
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Down is pointing to me, up away. So importing is down and exporting up
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I'm amazed at the answers in this thread.
The only conclusion I can draw currently is that most people have no idea what 'import' or 'export' actually means with programs/scripts.
Well, I guess it shouldn't surprise me after so many years in IT. But it still does.
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I recently heard that there are a lot of people using computers who, when clicking on a text field, try to click on a spot where the flashing cursor appears (left side of the text field) :D
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Yeah... and IT guys knowing is why so many UIs are completely messed up - because programmers don't care too much about what's intuitive for non IT people to use... you know, those guys who eventually are going to use the software.
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Neither do I work in the tech sector nor am I a particularly tech-savvy person when it comes to programming or building a computer and I was still completely flabbergasted by your interpretation.
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Exactly how I felt when I heard the opposing arguments - but interestingly the large majority is with me on this topic. I'm wondering how much bigger my lead would be if you'd ask random people on the streets who don't spend half their day on PCs in their spare time but only the occasional half hour for emails and social media.
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I noticed. But to be honest the way you phrased the OP and the poll I'm not sure the majority of the people who voted but didn't comment knew what they were voting for.
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Actually that's all there is to know to answer. Remember, it's about intuitively using a tool - not about technical details average Joe doesn't care about. You don't want to have to send people to do a course on IT lingo just for them to be able to use a software in a way how most of them think it should work in the first place.
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That wasn't what I was talking about. Maybe the poll is actually representative since you don't mix up upload and download there but I don't think anybody needs a fancy IT course to know that a Download is something that uses the Download speed of you Internet service provider and vice versa.
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I see. But that was actually me citing him
"Import -> Send the data -> Upload it"
"Export -> Get the data -> Download it"
I only added the arrow up and down since that was what he used in the script accordingly. So I was straight going with what I was given.
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Yeah, that part is correct I was referring to:
"Import -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
"Export -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
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C'mon, you're reaching, it's not like the user has to guess which one is which. There are very clear "Import data" and "Export data" tooltips when you hover over the buttons, and when you click on the buttons a popup appears with a huge "Import" and "Export" text. So the worst case scenario is that someone doesn't read the tooltip and clicks on the import button thinking that it's the export button and they have to close the popup and click on the other button. That's not rocket science, there's no need to do a course on "IT lingo" to get that, and as you can see, a lot of people believe that the way the script does it is intuitive from their perspective, and they're users just like you.
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This argument wasn't about what is technically correct wording and for that, yes, people would need proper education to understand the difference. So, sure, there's tooltips and so on - but this also was never about the tooltips and the following menu, it simply was about the arrows.
As is the arrow's directions are "right" only to little over 1/4th of the people so I wouldn't consider that "a lot" (in comparison) - the large majority of people disagrees following their intuition. And that's the whole point: It doesn't matter what's technically correct(er). For UI developement it's most important that people do understand it without reading a manual or tooltips (or for other cases maybe an IT course). And even in this case, where arrows are mixed up for most of the users and they could learn it by simply clicking on them, it's still very tough to break old habits (following what's known to them) and so it would be mich simpler to have them "right" for their view in the first place. That's basic UI design - make it right for the majority of people.
But, as we both have realized yesterday already, the arrows are wrong anyways and I think we both agreed that replacing them with proper icons would be the way to go.
(And what can be learned from the poll is simply that the arrows - as they are - are misleading. Which was my whole point when we started talking about this.)
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The people who voted in this poll are not necessarily the people who use ESGST, and it's impossible to get everyone who uses the script to vote, so you cannot conclude that the large majority of ESGST users disagree. And this poll does not represent ESGST, so concluding that is also a bit far-fetched. I think every single ESGST user who posted in this thread (except for you, of course) stated that the icons in the script are intuitive for them, that's what I'm basing "a lot" on.
But, as we both have realized yesterday already, the arrows are wrong anyways and I think we both agreed that replacing them with proper icons would be the way to go.
We did agree on that, I was just responding to your IT course comment, because I felt it was way out of place with all of this.
And I don't know why you keep bringing up technicalities, there is no technicality about this. When people click on an arrow going up, they usually expect that they will have to select a file from their computer and upload it, and when people click on an arrow going down, they usually expect that a file will be downloaded to their computer, which is exactly what the import/export buttons do. I don't see what's technical about that, it's very intuitive considering what each button does.
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Therefore you can conclude that "a lot" of people agree with you?
So your supporters are ESGST users (of which I'm - of course - the only exception as you say) because they mention ESGST, but all the others are not ESGST users? Uhm, that's not far fetched?
But ok, let's go with it, lets completely disregard my poll for a moment and lets take a look at your own poll - since that's definitely ESGST users, right?! So lets look at the three commenters you had on it first: One is supporting the current way, one is supporting mine and one is suggesting new icons. And as for your poll itself, even though it only gives two options that are straight forward to the point, still only one quarter of the people voting (27%) agrees with how it's currently done while all the others don't. That's pretty much the same result as my poll (where it's 26%). Still you argue that mine doesn't represent the ESGST users?
So yes, I can conclude that the large majority (and I originally didn't say "of ESGST users", I generally said "of people") disagrees with what you said.
As for bringing up the term technicalities: It's because that's what this is, it's a technical detail and technically you could argue (and that's what you do) that importing data into the script is uploading the data from the storage into the script and therefore an upwards pointing arrow.
But, as both polls have shown, the majority of people doesn't care about these technicalities, they view things from their personal point of view, from them controlling the script. Which is that they tell the script to import the data which as a result downloads the data from the storage. And they tell the script to make an backup which results in data being uploaded onto the storage.
Well, actually that's not what the majority says, the mayority says something much simpler (to cite your poll): "Import - Arrow Down, Export - Arrow Up".
So as many have said, it's about the point of view, who's the target. And - as both polls have proven - the users look at it from the opposite of how it's currently done.
Anyways, looking forward to the new icons, I'm curious what you're going to pick!
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Where did you get "therefore" from? Like I said, I based "a lot" on the users who posted in this thread and on my thread stating that they use ESGST and that they believe the current icons are intuitive. Sorry, but you're not understanding what I'm saying at all. Where did I ever say you were the only exception? I said, in this thread, I didn't see anyone in this thread talking particularly about ESGST saying that they disagree with me. And just by looking at your poll, wouldn't you say that 67 people is "a lot"?
15 people voted in my poll. The ESGST group alone on Steam has 339 members and there are a lot more people who use ESGST and are not on the Steam group. If you really think that small number of people are a representation of ESGST users, then I give up. And yes, your poll does not represent ESGST users, you cannot assure that everyone who voted in your poll are ESGST users, period.
It's not a technical detail, when you import data you literally get a window prompting you to select a file from your computer to be uploaded to the script, when you export data you literally get a window asking you where to save the downloaded file on your computer. It's just a fact and that's why the arrows are intuitive. Period.
My poll has 15 votes and yours is not a representation of ESGST users, so you cannot claim that the large majority agrees with you, the data is not big enough for you to claim that. 160-67 is not that big of a difference. And like I keep saying over and over again, those numbers do not reflect ESGST. The people who voted on your poll could be thinking from a completely different perspective of how ESGST works.
Anyway, we better get off this, this discussion is getting nowhere. We already agreed on selecting new icons, so let's just drop this, we're never going to agree on this, so it's pointless to keep arguing and arguing...
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This is tiring and I won't waste too much more time into this discussion since the point is already made - by those voting.
Seriously, do I have to explain to you how language works? I got it from the last sentence of your first paragraph, by shortening your reasoning with 'therefore'. Why the "only exception"? Because "except for you" specified me as the exception, not others. And no, I don't consider 67 people "a lot" when compared to the other 193. I also mentioned that quite some times by now.
Well, I used the results of my poll that has 260 votes - you weren't happy with it. Now you're not happy with your own poll... Yes, this "small" number (which isn't too far from your 339 group members) is a representation of all users - that's how statistics work. You look at a small sample group to conclude to a bigger one.
The people have backed my point twice no matter the sample size and you don't want to accept that nor that it's not about what's technically correct but rather that it's about arrows in a user interface. So it's only about what's right to the people, the users. And like it or not, most of them said that they don't associate an up arrow with import, so it doesn't matter at all if it's ESGST or another script running on their PCs. "Period".
Anyways, since you accept nothing against your point - that's fine, but in this case I choose not to argue over it anymore.
I understand you wanting to be right with things (from "show me an example" to "no, not just one" to "no, not google images" to "I want to see it in a google app") and respect that this great script is yours - so do with it whatever you want. Just keep in mind that you're a student who has still a lot to learn: Even most of those supporting you with rather detailed comments argued that it's also depending on the point of view and therefore opposite signs or other signs would be correct (or even more correct) as well. So maybe consider that someone more experienced has valid points even if you dislike them or (insinuating as you did) "you're not understanding" that (for a last time) it's about arrows in a UI - not about what's technically happening.
And actually this was a great example, showing that even though - technically - you might be right you're wrong when it comes to how people understand things and to what they would associate with 'import' when seeing it in a UI. And they more likely than not would even more so when three of the four options to import from/export to are cloud storages, where data is actually up- and downloaded. (I know you said this shouldn't be considered but the options are there, so you can't ignore them).
Having read all of your response now I'm glad to see you finally came to realize that this leads to nothing since you will never agree anyways ("period").
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It's hard to stop this discussion when you keep coming back with ridiculous arguments.
I think every single ESGST user who posted in this thread (except for you, of course) stated that the icons in the script are intuitive for them, that's what I'm basing "a lot" on.
I specifically said "in this thread" and specifically told you what I was basing "a lot" on.
67 people IS a lot, exactly compared to 160 (don't know where you got 193 from). The difference is just 93. That's 42%.
It's not about being happy or not with the poll:
- Your poll does not represent ESGST users, so 260 votes is irrelevant.
- My poll only has 15 votes out of a very large number of users, so it cannot be used to represent them.
If that's how statistics work the world is fucked up. If we interview 100 people out of 100000 and 95% of those 100 people say they don't like chocolate, then we can conclude that the vast majority of the 100000 people don't like chocolate? Lol, fuck off.
It's not about experience, it's about straight up bullshit.
Sorry for the language, but you're really stressing me out. You cannot honestly be serious with these arguments.
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So I should not defy my point just to shut you up? Sorry, but you're the one who's getting this wrong, you're bad at taking valid criticism and you keep coming back with new arguments that are ridiculous - just like this new chocolate comparison of yours: Would you ask 100 or even 100000 hand picked regular chocolate eaters instead and distort the poll until it's to your liking?
If you have 80 million people in the country and make a poll for upcoming elections, you don't go and only ask people supporting your party, you're not asking 10% or even 1%. You're asking maybe 1000 or rarely up to 2000 random people of each state. And in the end you get representative results from these very small sample groups although have only asked maybe 16-32000 people (at best 0.04%) out of the 80.000.000. But since you won't believe what I say, just go and ask your statistics professor how things are done.
Anyways, keep sugarcoating it for yourself as much as you want - that doesn't change anything about what the people said: They do not associate an up arrow with import! And that's what all of this was ever about and all there is to say about this. Keep coming back if you like, I'm out of here.
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I'm bad at taking stupidity, it has nothing to do with criticism. Did I or did I not agree to replacing the icons completely? If I was bad at taking criticism I would have kept the icons however I wanted, since the script is mine and I do whatever the fuck I want with it. It's your stupidity that I'm bad at taking.
Yeah, I remember quite well how the polls for the 2016 US elections showed that Hilary Clinton was going to win in a landslide, look how well that represented the country.
They do not associate an up arrow with import! And that's what all of this was ever about and all there is to say about this.
It was never about that, it was about "import > upload" and "export > download", don't even start. You said multiple times that you believe the import function is actually downloading and the export function is actually uploading. If we're only looking at the terms, then yes, an up arrow should never be associated with "import". But from the perspective of ESGST, when you import something you are uploading a file from your computer to the script. You said that this is actually a download. That's what this was about. If it wasn't about that you would have never mentioned "upload" or "download".
Keep coming back if you like, I'm out of here.
Good, just fuck off.
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Nah, let me get back once more... See, I prove you wrong regarding statistics and again you just find excuses by coming up with the one example where statistics was wrong.
To clarify what you just said: That may have been what it was to you - but it wasn't what I talked about when I approached you about it... Which was 'Hey, I get always confused by the up- and down-arrow buttons when having to import the settings, did you do this on purpose or accidentally mix up the icons?'. It's what is mentioned in this poll (using your words) and even your poll is specifically talking about the arrows. So you know damn well that to me this was about the arrows.
Now, keep on being as butt-hurt as much as you'd like and keep on slurring as much as you want - that all already says way more about you and your ability to have a civilized conversation than what it says about me. Way to go 👍
Happy Easter!
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Where exactly did you prove anything wrong regarding statistics? What if the other 300 people who didn't vote in the poll all agree with me? What would that tell you? Would those 15 people who voted still represent the majority? Or are you going to tell me that is not possible? If at least 150 people voted, that would be a different conversation, because that number would be closer to the actual number (it would be at least half the people), but 15? Are you fucking kidding me?
You stated many times that you believe the arrow for import should be down because the import is not an upload, but a download. That's what this was all about for me, and why I told you that sounded like crazy talk for me from the beginning. Don't try to spin it around now, I can quote many comments from you and I in this thread discussing "import > upload" vs "import > download", not "import > up" vs "import > down". My poll reflects the ESGST perspective, so it's not about the "import" and "export" terms per se, but about the functionality of "import" and "export" in the script. And am I crazy or do you not state in the OP up there:
In short his reply was:
"Import -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
"Export -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
which is completely mind bending to me.For me it always was:
"Import -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow dow
"Export -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
You even said in another comment that the issue is that we don't even agree on what an upload/download is.
I don't have civilized conversations with fucking idiots. So here are some more slurs for your snowflake ass: can you fuck off now?
Happy Easter!
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Wow, that escalated really slowly.
I'm impressed by your patience ;)
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Isn't it impressive? What would be even more impressive is me getting suspended now for calling that fucking idiot a fucking idiot. Any moment now, watch. I'll be glad if I get suspended permanently from this piece of shit that is SteamGifts, that way I don't have to focus on this script anymore and deal with idiots everywhere.
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Yaaay, just got my old username back. Ok, now I can get suspended happily. \o/
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The word I was looking for was actually admire but I couldn't find it earlier. I highly doubt that you'll be suspended for this.
If you don't wanna be called a fucking idiot how about not annoying the fuck out of people who are trying to do something nice for the community ?
And if you don't want to continue spending your time on the script and deal with stuff like THIS anymore you should probably do that or at least take a break. I mean the daily updates are nice but it's not like you owe us anything and I'm sure we'll make do until the next Volvo update breaks stuff and even afterwards. Maybe that will teach people to treat creators with more respect.
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Wanna bet? I've been suspended for far less. Mods love suspending me when I insult other users. And since I've been suspended like 3 times now for that, pretty sure I can get the permanent hammer. \o/
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Wanna bet?
I'd rather not. Let's just say that would be a shame.
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I love working on the script, it's the users that piss me off sometimes. And there are no more daily updates, it's now weekly or so. And it's not even about treating anyone with respect, I don't care about that, it's just about people being a pain in the ass for something that is virtually irrelevant. Before this there was a user complaining about the use of "popout" and "popup" in the script.
I mean, if you're being a pain in the ass reporting a bug or suggesting a new feature, please do that, I am here to fix bugs any time needed and add any new features I can. I don't get annoyed by that. But being a pain in the ass over terms and icons used in the script, when many people are ok with it, and when you can clearly understand it well? C'mon.
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Just to avoid wrong assumptions: I do work in IT, but trust me: I'm not the person to make messed up UI's. I'm generally the person telling people to fix the UI because I want users to actually understand what they're doing and feel empowered...not demotivated.
Now to be honest: someone not knowing what the word import or export means isn't a difference between IT and non IT people. Unless you assume these words are IT-exclusive. (economics uses the same words as well, with similar connotations).
The reality is that I notice literacy in the sense of actually understanding a large variety of words is decreasing. Which is why some terms/definitions are simply not understood. And that leads to assumptions (cause generally people don't like admitting they don't understand something). And that leads to misunderstandings.
What I'm curious about is how imagery such as an arrow pointing towards you wouldn't mean something coming towards you. Or how an arrow pointing away from you doesn't mean something going away from you.
This would be interesting for an actual psychological/social experiment (outside of IT-context and then inside IT-context) to see how this works and differs. From what I've gathered, people do change their interpretation of arrows as soon as IT gets involved, as if the mere mention of IT matters. (Similar to how some smart folks can follow complex steps with ease as long as there is no IT involved but involve IT and an innate fear of IT makes it a lot harder for them to concentrate or follow steps)
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Up for upload and import
Down for download and export
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Import is me downloading thus down arrow.
It's ambiguous because it might be from your perspective or the server's perspective.
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Nope, sorry, an import is not downloading. An import is taking external data (usually local) and sending it to a data source (usually something remote, and often a database). An export is taking data from a data source and sending it elsewhere (usually to local storage as a flat file, and thus is often [but not always] a download).
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So, import is almost always an upload, simple as that. It's been that way pretty much forever (and I'm pretty old, so I should know 😁). Export is usually a download, but not necessarily so.
BUT, I would argue that the biggest problem here is that these still aren't good icons at all. They're still be ambiguous. So, to make it clear, use icons that are something like a page with 1s and 0s on it (representing data), and an arrow that starts on the data page and points away from it (for export), and the opposite for import. Or, instead of a data page, make it a database icon (again, arrow away from it for export, and arrow pointing toward it for import). Also, make sure that there are tooltips for each, so that there is a clear description upon hover, which solves the issue 75% of the time. 😎 In any case, if it's confusing that there is debate on the icons (which I think we've established in this case), then the issue isn't which icon to use for which function, but that it's a bad set of icons all around.
Also, I'd like to take this time to suggest that more people enroll in a basic UI design class before publishing software. You'll thank me for it later (and so will all of your users). 😏👍🏻
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I'm having a discussion with a friend: He's got a script in which you need to click a 'up arrow' to import and a 'down arrow' to export - which is very confusing to me ever since I'm using his script.
So today I finally asked him if this was just an accidental mix-up of icons or what's going on since I only know it the other way around for the last 25 years since I'm using PCs.
In short his reply was:
"Import -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
"Export -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
which is completely mind bending to me.
For me it always was:
"Import -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
"Export -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
So, what do you think who's right? Try not to think about it too much and just vote intuitively what would come to mind if you would see one or the other arrow in a software that you've just opened up for the first time.
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