☐ Not REKT
☑ REKT
GG their future games. i dont think so tho
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Judging by how shit their current game is, it shouldnt make a difference.
And the positive reviews of it smell a lot like they are paid reviews.
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This dev is a trainwreck in progress. Check out the second most upvoted recommendation on the store page.
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I believe they're referring to Tincup_the_Middleman's negative review.
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I can't say I'm surprised, unfortunately there are a lot of people who discriminate against LGBT people. In this case it's not even clear are you gay or not, you just had rainbow colors over your avatar and that alone was enough for them to tell you to fuck off.
That's not just horrible but highly unprofessional.
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Dream Games = Digital Homicide 2.0
Kinda of hoping for more free steam keys so I can write a negative review.
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To be honest I like DH more.
They treat everybody equally. Like Cards Farming machines, but still - equally xD
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serious, are there still people in this world that are homophobic? Its 2016
I got the game in my library want to remove it
Ofc going to mark it as useful
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For as long as there is religion there will be intolerance and hate. Just for clarification I'm not saying all religious people are hateful and intolerant, but those things are at core of most religions and are found in their holy books.
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I'm religious and I consider myself pretty tolerant and unhateful.
Religion and intelligence are not always mutually exclusive
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Of course, a lot of religious people are reasonable enough not to hate on people who do nothing wrong. I edited my comment to clarify that.
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Religion and intelligence are not always mutually exclusive
I agree, they most certainly are not mutually exclusive. Of course when a person adheres to the former, but lacks the latter I suppose that is where trouble brews... my mother-in-law is a prime example.
:D
Ha! Me thinks my joke about my mother-in-law landed me on a blacklist... note to self: just don't comment on threads tied to religion as the religious tend not to be very forgiving. Edit: make that 2 blacklist additions increasing my count of blacklist placements by 75%.
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^^^2+infinite
Not the religion itself but the "man" who represent it
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I don't think that's the problem. I think that the problem is how gay people are portrait by the media and also, "you're either tolerant or a monster" tactic doesn't work.
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Majority of people who hate on gays are religious fundamentalists. Aside from certain religions being against homosexuality there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be opposed to such relationships. So religious fundamentalism is definitely the problem and the main reason why there is so much hate towards LGBT people.
I don't know how media portraits gay people in your country but here medias are on their side and show them as perfectly normal people.
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How often do you see things about homosexuals at TV? When you see that content, what is the message?
Here, I only see them on TV close to gay parades and what they show is: gross 80% naked persons, people fighting, gendarmerie breaking the fights and traffic jams. Maybe I am wrong, but I truly believe that instead of portraiting them as normal people, this adds to a general association of them with the things mentioned above ("gross people who cause troubles"). Most of the people in my country are against gay marriage and I doubt that most of them are religious fundamentalists, as they always complain about how we have more churches than schools or hospitals. I have a "gift" for not expressing myself well, but I hope you got the point. Also, until I realised that a coworker and friend of mine was gay, I had the same issue with them. After he "revealed" himself to me, I realised that they are just a normal person who wants peace and stability, just like any of us, and not the image I had about them. It seems stupid, but I truly believe that a lot of people are in my former situation.
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There are several reasons for this.
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Depending on your country and what news you watch, the news media isn't necessarily neutral. (Well, nobody is perfectly neutral, but in some places it's worse than others.) Some news sources specifically highlight stuff that makes homosexuals look bad because they want homosexuals to look bad. They'll go to a parade of thousands of people and report on the worst person there, even if it isn't representative.
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Even when a news channel doesn't care (or even if they support gay rights), their job is to report news. Stuff is news if it's unusual, interesting, exciting, eye-catching and so on. "Here are some gay people acting just like everyone else" is not news. "Here are some gay people acting strange and outlandish" is news. Hence, you get the most extreme and unusual stuff. Imagine if you judged all men in Florida by the news results you get for Florida Man. If you see "Florida Man" at the start of a news headline, do you think the rest of the headline is more likely to read "...acts normal and ordinary, just like men everywhere else", or "caught speeding with no clothes while hurling empty beer bottles and racial epithets at the police?"
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In order to advance gay rights, one of the main things gay-rights-activists have to confront is the intense social pressure on gays to stay out of the public eye, which makes it easier to deny them their rights. Eg. you can have Iran's president saying there are no gays at all in Iran. Additionally, one of the most effective ways to advance gay rights is to get gays to come out of the closet; even very homophobic people often reconsider their positions when their children, siblings, and close friends come out to them. Therefore, many of the gay-rights events are not aimed at convincing straight people directly; they're aimed at forcing the news media to cover them so closeted gays can see that there are other people like them, giving them the courage to come out. It also forces both the news media and the public to confront the injustice of how gays are treated. Sure, some people will say "well, now I really don't support gays because they hold those ugly annoying parades!" But the gamble is that (once the coverage forces people to confront the realities of gay life and how discrimination is affecting them), most people will still ultimately realize that ugly annoying parades aren't a reason to deny someone their basic human rights.
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I've been to one parade (as in "I was there"). Never again. It's full of deviants, attention whores and perverts. I thought I'll throw up.
Turns out real homosexuals live their lives like the rest of us, and don't attend such events.
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while i agree with you that religion is a big problem in our society and definitely a source of certain kinds of immoral behaviour, and i wish it just went away - i have to disagree with you on this. or at least question your reasoning here:
Majority of people who hate on gays are religious fundamentalists.
this is a claim you have to back up with numbers. i don't believe you're right about this. my personal experience is definitely different. i see hate against gay people from religious, but also from many non-religious people. so unless you have any further proof, i would take this more as a personal opinion rather than a fact.
this is certainly no proof of what you said:
Aside from certain religions being against homosexuality there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be opposed to such relationships. So religious fundamentalism is definitely the problem and the main reason why there is so much hate towards LGBT people.
this is just a fallacy. you don't see any other reason aside from religion, so religion is the only reason for it? following that logic, there could not be any non-religious people at all who hate gays. well, i met enough of those people to tell you this is not the case. :)
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It has nothing to do with religion, religion is just an excuse. Religious people always pick and choose things they like from their religion.
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How many homophobic atheists do you know? I'm not saying they don't exist but I have never met one nor heard about one.
While I agree that a lot of religious people pick and choose which parts of their religions they'll follow and which they will not when it comes to intolerance towards LGBT people the main reason are the religious ideologies that are against it.
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I've met quite a few, actually (unfortunately). Not as common as the religious sorts in my subjective experience, but they're out there. Most are just of the "ew, it's gross to me, therefore it's bad and I hate it," but some try to drag in weird, tortured pseudo-scientific justifications, which is where it REALLY gets both more funny and more depressing. For example, some honestly think the existence of homosexuality is somehow going to lead to human reproduction somehow plummeting to the point we go extinct. (They can never really explain how/why that hasn't happened with the OTHER various animal species in which homosexuality occurs.)
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If entire human race became gay then I can see it happen I guess, but that's definitely not going to happen. And people who think everyone would become gay if such relationships were widely accepted by everyone are probably gay themselves.
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I know zero religious people who are homophobic but a fair few non religious people who are homophobic. It's all anecdotal though and depends on your interactions with others.
End of the day the religion doesn't matter it's the stupidity of the people that does. Stupid people will be homophobic whether they are religious or not.
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Religious ideologies do matter, they influence people. Not all of them, but still a huge amount. And like I said, while not all religious people are homophobes, majority of homophobes are religious.
Thank you for the blacklist.
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You are spitting into the wind and claiming it is raining. Just because you can say something doesn't make it a fact. Just because you believe something doesn't make it a fact. It's high time you bring some evidence into the conversation.
The blacklist has been there for quite some months also just in case you were thinking it's because of this post. While I think you are completely wrong, I wouldn't blacklist someone for just a difference of opinion.
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it does matter. religion is a source for ideas like that. it may not be the only one, but it certainly is one. all over the world christian theologians and philosophers publicly say that gay acts are against the will of god. that doesn't mean all christians believe that, of course. and that doesn't mean all christians who hate gay people have their idea from religion. but a fair amount of them probably has.
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You're not seeing the context of what I wrote. By religion doesn't matter but the stupidity of people does I mean that with or without religion stupid people will think what they want to think. With that religion in place those who are capable of thinking for themselves and understanding that religion doesn't hold all the answers will often not be homophobic.
Does it cover everyone and every thought they may have? No of course not. I'm sure a fair amount of religious people do in fact take their bigotry from that but I would dispute that most do not. Ultimately without hard facts and numbers (which are impossible) we will never really know.
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yes, i know what said. and i was trying to say this: stupid people have to get their ideas from somewhere, right? they don't just hate gays without being told to do so. and religion delivers those ideas on a silver plate. i think we pretty much agree on this. just not on how influencial religion exactly is. but you're right, we will never get an exact answer.
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Yeah we are in agreement there, just differ on the scope of influence. A couple of things I would add though is that I've seen people dislike anything that is different which can also be a direct cause for homophobia/racism/sexism/etc. I would also expect parental influence to play a greater role for most people.
Thanks for the discussion though, it was a good debate.
(Edited for shitty grammar /sigh)
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Wat. Roman Catholic Christians do not demonize homosexuality anymore, for example. Considering that the Pope's doctrine is gospel and he say that he's cool with them.
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Nah. It's not enought to have one "cool" Pope to change people minds.
Right winged catholic media says here, that he shouldn't say anything about homosexuality, as it's not his role. That catholic doctrine is solid and he can't change it at his whim.
Priests doesn't stand agains xenophobia / homophobia and so on, and even quietly allowing it, as our bishops still stand on position "it's adam and eve, not tom and jerry". They want to write in our constitution, that marriage is sacred act in the name of god between womam and man and in no other way around etc.
There is no such a thing as "uniform catholicsm", there are differences in lots of areas. Latin America catholics is slightly different than Poland's, western europe and so on.
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one of many, many examples. this is a well known christian philosopher, and many people believe in what he says (unfortunately)
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You do know even non religious can be homophobic, some see it as unnatural and against nature.
Ppl will hate what they want, just ignore them.
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Yeah that "it's unnatural" argument is really stupid considering it happens in nature among animals. But I have only heard religious people say it, probably because bible says it's unnatural.
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I am kinda religious for some aspects [althou I do not believe in any 'church']. Personally I do not care who does what as long as one does not try to push their way of thinking/living/acting on me [no matter what it is, religion, diet or new vaccum cleaner]. And I do not mean to offend you, but it seems you are pretty either intolerant or hypocritical - as you want others to tolerate other ways of living, you cannot accept theirs [even if they are not beeing 'tolerant', that should be their right, right?]. And you always mention bible, yeah, that book is no good, cause you can find there justification for any action, especially old testament is full of umm interesting stories, but other 'holly books' are no better, in some aspects are even worse, but I guess nowdays it is not politicaly correct to mention that
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You are right, I am intolerant of intolerant bigots who discriminate against certain types of people for no good reason.
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not every people that does not support lgbt are bigots [I know selfproclaimed atheist how is strony against lgbt, and many other stuff..],
therefore calling them bigots are kinda insult, for both sides I guess. And still you are generalising, as many of them have 'no good reason' in your opinion, for them religion might be kinda big one, that's just your point of view, and basing on that, you are throwing insults, deminishing one religion over others, or all of them. No point in critcising other for doing same. [don't mind on throwing rocks at those who do really bad stuff to them]
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Look, while I don't mind people believing in whatever they want to believe, hate against people who do nothing wrong cannot be justified. Hate, intolerance and discrimination should be condemned, especially when they lead to certain types of people not having the same rights as others or in them being attacked physically.
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agree to hate haters! that is justified by me. intolerance, if just verbal and classy [meaning stating their beliefs or sometimes even jokes] are everyones right, and let's not fool ourselves, everyone is intolerant, for this or another reason. Discrimination, well, depends :D If it is public sell offering, nah, you cannot do that, but if you orgnize party, yeah, you can say peps with brown eyes are not welcomed,
and it is in your right to do so.
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This.
It is the most relevant thing in this whole thread.
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Thanks god I'm atheist... But have to say that statement above is not true.
I have friends that are non believers and still are hatefull towards many things. Including homophobic persons (because it doesn't support survival of the human race and so on).
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Thanks god I'm atheist
I don't even....
I have friends that are non believers and still are hatefull towards many things. Including homophobic persons (because it doesn't support survival of the human race and so on).
I am really surprised by the amount of people telling me they know atheists who are homophobes as I've yet to meet one either in real life or on the internet. But I'm not going to argue about it.
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- knock, knock.
- who's there?
- atheists
- I don't believe you.
- For the love of god - it's true.
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Not going to comment on that. I added another comment in my previous post btw.
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I think that is problem with human nature in general. Most people are in fear of things they don't understand. So religion/god created by them is just a mirror of whats inside people minds.
Atheists don't follow religions but are still human beings.
I was raised in catholic familly. Loosing my faith and searching for my "own way" was a process. As ending result (not really ending) I created my own moral code which I follow.
Those "filled with hate" atheists I'm talking about are from aheist famillies. They were never interested in any kind of philosphy or morals. They somehow have the same bad attitude towards everything just like other people from our small old town :)
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You think people just became more tolerant over the past years? it's actually getting worse, even in a country such as the netherlands.
A lesbian girl who was just going out, walking on the streets and got called names by a bunch of guys and eventually beaten by them.
And another girl that got beaten because she was walking with her boyfriend, who was black.
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Because people started to talk about it, started to defend it.
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Must be me then, but really cant understand why someone would be against love of any kind
Actually where I live in the Netherlands its very normal and accepted we have a huge gay community here (Twente)
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I live in the netherlands and i just gave you two examples why it's not really accepted by others, it's commonly thought we as a country accept it, maybe in some parts still (the east, north and south) or 20 years ago, but alot has changed.
Those two cases were just from the last 2 months, and just a small portion of cases that keep happening time after time, if you follow the news, just like a young gay guy also got beaten around 3 months ago, just on his way going home.
If i were gay or with a man i would think twice of holding hands, let alone kiss here in some parts, especially big cities like Amsterdam.
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ok what a crazy story even in het Nederlands, lijkt wel of de homohaat zich vooral concentreert rondom Utrecht, paar jaar geleden al met lesbische stel wat werd weggetreiterd. Hier gebeurt echt nooit wat qua homohaat. We hebben hier de op 1 na grootste homodisco en zie zo vaak mannen op straat hand in hand lopen. Mag toch hopen dat mensen een keer hun verstand gaan gebruiken!
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Het zal ook wel met de randstad te maken hebben en de diversiteit aan inwoners die daar toch wat meer vertegenwoordigt zijn en bepaalde groepen die ook wat tegen homoseksualiteit hebben.
Ik denk ook met hoe het steeds maar weer alles kapot word bezuinigd en we sinterklazen voor vluchtelingen wij als bevolking ook gewoon minder tolerant worden en dus vaker dat uiten tegen onbekenden.
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ja dat zou kunnen, maar ik schrik wel van jouw voorbeelden. Snap niet dat mensen uberhaupt tegen homo's kunnen zijn. Snap die hele gedachtengang niet. Trouwens door mijn opm heb ik er al weer een bl bij en deze keer ben ik er trots op ik zou nl niet iets van iemand willen winnen die pro homohaat is
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Dit zijn de artikelen trouwens (lees net dat het om Groningen en Zwolle gaat). http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/25546985/__Lesbisch_stel_doet_aangifte__.html
http://www.metronieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/2016/05/mishandelde-vrouw-20-zoekt-racistische-belagers
Ja maar er is ook veel geweld tegen mensen die niet homoseksueel zijn, of een kleur hebben.
Ik google net naar dat artikel en kom dit al weer tegen. http://www.metronieuws.nl/nieuws/amsterdam/2016/05/vrouw-zwaar-mishandeld-in-trein-in-amsterdam
En dan zoveel verhalen in het nieuws van kinderen vooral, en mensen die door groepen tegen het hoofd worden geschopt dat is ook lang een hele enge "rage" geweest.
Ik denk dat ik er ook 1 bij kreeg door die andere topic waaruit dit begonnen was, denk niet zozeer dat het pro homohaat is maar meer dan sommigen gewoon tegen zijn homoseksualiteit, dat kan ook zonder haat, en ach hier gebeurd het soms om de gekste dingen.
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Ik zou hier erg graag dieper op in willen gaan maar om politiek correct te blijven (wat van je verwacht word hier in NL) doe ik het maar niet aangezien je tegenwoordig voor een poep en een scheet al voor racist word uitgemaakt.
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Hier in het noorden merk ik ook wel dat mensen minder tolerant worden. Niet perse tegen homo's (die zie je hier niet veel), maar ik zie steeds meer mensen die tegen asielzoekers zijn. En dat kan ik op zich ook nog wel begrijpen. Op een gegeven moment zijn er gewoon teveel (ik weet niet hoe het in andere delen van het land is, maar hier zie je er best wel veel) en sommigen lijken geeneens moeite te doen zich aan te passen.
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Het is overal, in editie nl hebben ze weleens kaarten laten zien ook, heel die kaart was vol, en ik woon vlakbij straten met een heleboel buitenlanders met hoofddoeken en die geen nederlands spreken, dan woon ik nog niet eens in een grote stad.
Zoveel mis in dit land qua zorg, werkgelegenheid etc terwijl vluchtelingen even 10000 euro krijgen voor het inrichten van hun huisje, dat soort dingen steekt een boel mensen, en er zijn zat geweldsincidenten in asielzoekerscentra, dat hele oud en nieuw gedoe in berlijn. Denk ook dat princeofjerusalem dat bedoelt.
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Dat ze 10000 euro krijgen vind ik nog niet eens zo'n groot probleem. Het probleem vind ik dat ze zich niet proberen aan te passen (vooral als ze zoveel krijgen moeten ze zich gewoon aanpassen). Ik reis dagelijks met de bus, maar soms dan hoor je amper nederlands en alleen maar vreemde talen.
Ik ken wel een aantal mensen die naar nederland gevlucht zijn (jaren geleden dan wel) en die perfect ingeburgerd zijn en zich ook gewoon nederlands voelen. Dit soort mensen moeten we juist verwelkomen (degenen die graag moeite doen om zich aan te passen en erbij te horen), maar als mensen zelf geen moeite willen doen, hoeven wij dat ook niet naar hun (vind ik).
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I don't really want to elaborate on this here, but I have done that same thing in a few cities of the Netherlands and I haven't had a single problem. Having visited your country a significant number of times, my impression is that it's fairly tolerant and open-minded. Of course, there are exceptions, but so happens everywhere.
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It could really depend on which parts you visited.
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It could, of course. But I have been to both small and big cities (as big as they can get there :P) and I've had zero problems. Actually, you said that you'd avoid it in big cities, but I am under the impression that they tend to be more tolerant -not in the NL, everywhere- on average than small places.
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I posted three links (in dutch) 1 was about a lesbian couple in Groningen (a very big city actually in the north), the racism thing was in Zwolle (not small either(, and just a random woman beaten up in a train in Amsterdam that actually happened today (and noone that helped her).
We also have alot of incidents that don't involve homosexuality or racism, there was this thing where it happened alot, in which people, but especially even (young) children got beaten up (by groups) and kicked in the head, what i told yosih in dutch is i think alot of people are becoming unsatisfied by alot of our goverment decisions and take out that anger on the streets and to strangers, there seem to be a whole increase of violence in general.
Not saying at all, that in every town and city something could happen, and like in Amsterdam you have millions of people coming and going, offcourse something won't happen to every gay couple that would walk by there, but even 1 is too much.
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Thanks for the clarification. I had not seen that post before (sometimes I get a bit confused with the comments system here), but what's in these links is very sad... and scary. Especially the part of nobody moving one finger to help that poor girl.
As you pointed out, perhaps it's not just violence directed at homosexuals, but violence for the sake of it. I don't know what's worse...
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it could be indeed where I live (in the Eastern part of Holland) its fairly normal for two men holding hands. We got a lot of gay bars here, I think even more then straight bars. Lugum lives more to the West
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Well, if you visit a country, you get a whole different image then when you actually live there. Most parts of the netherlands are indeed pretty tolerant, but lately people are getting less tolerant, especially towards refugees (and I can understand that somewhat).
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Ohne Holland, fahr'n wir zur EM!
Sorry, we Germans are supposed to celebrate that, in such cases. :)
PS: Props for OP, you have my support
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this. Is getting worse or, maybe, the shit is going more public
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Homophobia used to be an official policy in the USSR, and I strongly doubt that the situation in Azerbaijan has changed more than here in Russia (absolute majority of people are still homophobic here, not to mention one really ugly law). So yeah, the problem still exists, and it's widespread.
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thats so sad really. Why so much hatred in the world
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Godsdienst, politiek, geld en/of macht of een combinatie ervan...
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inderdaad dat zal er wel mee te maken hebben
Ik kan het niet begrijpen dat mensen elkaar veroordelen om huidskleur, seksualiteit etc
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En gender want in sommige landen mag je niet stemmen, mag je niet werken, mag je niet naar school gaan enz. omdat je een meisje of vrouw bent...
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precies handicap en noem maar op
Ik word echt verdrietig van discriminatie op welke gronden dan ook
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The worst part is probably that many Russians even manage to hate those who don't mind that gays are granted the same rights & freedoms, as everyone else. Very strange to consider yourself morally superior, for suppressing others.
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"As long as they blame <INSERT NAME HERE>, they will not blame government".
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We've come a long way but there is still a long way to go. There still quite some sad people out there.
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doesn't surprise me that the game is bad, just judging from this incident.
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The prejudiced normally are some degree of stupid, though. \:3/
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How stupid do people have to be ? Look at the actions they have done right after release of a game. This is not how you promote something. Natural selection of game industry. I hope they sink to the deep prematurely.
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Thumbed up. Devs must be either closet teenagers or closet manchilds
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so, you are not recommending the game because they hate gay people?
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I really try to play, so my opinion is not only based in the developer character, BUT, I try twice, and the game crashed twice in the start screen, so I not recommend the game too
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cause it game doesnot work and crashes - 1, 2 - developer is bullshit.
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They're free to not give away the game because they don't support LGBT. The only inadequate part is the last line.
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but that's prejudice, it would be the same as a black person asking a key and they say they do not give keys to black people, and this kind of attitude should be retaliated against
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Still wouldn't be anything special. Yes, its bad for business but its their choice who gets or doesnt get the key. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, trying to call fellow Steamgifters to arms to defend your honor or something? You didn't get the key, you should leave it be.
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He's being discriminated on basis of sexual orientation. Which is a no-no by moder-world standars. He's entitled to feel outraged.
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Well, as MrCastiglia said, they seem to be discriminating, which is something that should not be supported. Yes, they're free to give the keys to whoever they like, but to say 'fuck you' because of something they assume (which probably isn't even true), is not something I would like to support.
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Claiming the "moral high ground" while simultaneously being rude, judgemental, and vulgar.... Yet another example of people missing "the big picture."
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I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're tring to say here (I'm not english).
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In other words, the developer refused to give a game key for "moral reasons," and yet he was behaving badly (which those morals don't allow). His actions contradict his words.
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Yeah, exactly. Unless he has some really weird morals...
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You're not entitled to a key. It's their game and they should be able to exclude whoever they want from their giveaway without retaliation.
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It's illegal to discriminate on basis of religion/sexual orientation/race and so on and so forth. That dev is a huge dick and he deserves to be called out.
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is it? [I'm not supporting devs or discrimination]
but can you tell me which law they broke?
Steam have it in EULA? Facebook? their country?
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In the UK it is illegal to discriminate against anyone based on sexuality or to treat you less favourably because of your sexual orientation than someone of a different sexual orientation would be treated in the same circumstances.
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my point was, it is generlising, OP is not in UK, dev is not in EU.
But even so, for the sake of discussion and my gain of daily knowlegde - does it apply to facebook giveaway [if made by UK citizen for UK ppl] and the spoken person might not even be lgbt, just support them [so it is not part of the minority]? just curious
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The developer is from Turkey, a country currently tying to gain entry to the EU. It applies to everything, In the UK it's illegal to even make a comment that a LGBT person would find offensive...
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/03/23/law-against-homophobic-hatred-comes-into-effect/
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country trying to do something, does not make them applly anything. Especially considering UKexit :) And that it was made of FB
and that according to your article
It is unlikely the new law will be used frequently. Similar laws against inciting racial hatred have only been used around 20 times in the 30 years since they came into force.
The legislation will not make it a crime to criticise or tell jokes about homosexuality.
So I dont believe it is crime.
But anywho, I do not like any condemn or more so [hysical voilence against anyone.
Just pointing that if in your [insert readers country] country it is illegal, does not make it illegal everywhere
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Yep I completely agree with you, my point was merely to convey that in some countries (and I doubt mine is the only one), this developer's behaviour would be seen as unacceptable and possibly illegal.
Regardless of if the developer is giving away his own product, he's still offering a service and should not discriminate against anyone, for any reason.
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Indeed, prejudice is not cool but you are missing the point that he is making. The game belongs to the developer and he is not in any way obliged to be sensitive to your feelings and orientations. This is not some public right that you are being denied, just his personal work, so he is free to do his business however he wants, even if it is a very bad business decision.
What you are trying to do here, is generate a mob mentality to go after a person and upvote your review which has no bearing on the game but on his beliefs, just to assuage your hurt pride and feelings.
From my viewpoint, the developer is an idiot, from business and social stand. And I think you are taking this far too seriously (unfortunately with the community here too, It seems). If you feel offended, I would suggest you boycott the game in your own way but for the love of god, don't try to create a lynch mob over it.
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+1. Developer is wrong, but it is his right. Trying to stir up a mob and encourage negative reviews is petty.
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No, it would not be the same thing because being black is not a choice, nor is against any sane persons beliefs. It's the devs giveaway, not yours. You have zero say in how they distribute keys. You are not owed anything here.
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Scientific evidence...
But feel free to disagree. There are people who still believe the earth is flat (seriously).
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Scientific evidence? There is just as much "scientific evidence" that says it is a choice. And many documented cases of Trans patients who went under the knife regretting their choice. But feel free to disagree, there are still people who believe that Hillary Clinton would make a good president.
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There is just as much "scientific evidence" that says it is a choice.
No, there isn't. All that said that where published and/or funded by religious institutions and where proved to have flawed methodology. (not following scientific method).
And many documented cases of Trans patients who went under the knife regretting their choice.
Don't doubt it. The surgery probably is a traumatic experience.
there are still people who believe that Hillary Clinton would make a good president.
I'm not from the US, but I would vote for Bernie. I don't like Hillary, but between her and Trump I would choose her.
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So, you agree it is a choice. Good, glad you had that breakthrough.
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No, I said that about doing the surgery... Not about being trans. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
And not all trans choose to do the surgery btw.
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When did you graduate from Bigotry University? You got all A's I assume, right mate?
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Yep, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a bigot.
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Anyone who goes agains stablishes science to push their discriminating and shaming agenda is a fucking bigot.
Man, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and cuacks like a duck....
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I shamed no one, but now that we're on the subject I can't understand your typing. Shouldn't you be a little better at this English thing?
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I wasn't insulting now was I? Is bigot an insult? hmmm, treadin' on eggshels I gotta be. hahahaha
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you were not insulting, but you made intolerant assumptions, so you are in tje super hypocrysy state. even if he is a bigot, it is his right to be, not you to judge, right?
oh, and 'f.king bigot' is an insult. It is same, as you would scream probably if someone would say about gay person 'he is f.king gay'.
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I made intolerant assumptions? Wait, let me laugh.
Fucking bigot is not an insult, is a descriptor.
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eot for me. no point in making conversation with close minded person [whatever the boundires are about]. just pointless
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I am very interested in this statement. If it's scientifically proven, I'd like to see credible sources.
I'm not knowledgeable in medical, so I could be very well wrong.
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https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/668167?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X06001462
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302211000252
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01541847
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224498809551449
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031938401005649
Usually the full articles are paid. Only the abstract is public.
http://www.viewzone.com/homosexual.html
This have a resume of some articles, but you might not like it.
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Fuck you. No they're not free to not give away the game based on someone's race, religion, sexe or even opinion. By law.
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Is there such a law in Azerbaijan and even if there is, do you really think something will be done about it? He's just giving games to people of his choosing. I don't see anything wrong with it, but the gaming community likes to create drama out of anything.
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I agree. The people here are taking it entirely out of proportion.
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It's not because we're not all white racist scums with a total ignorance of laws and politics that it is taking out of proportion. Is that we shouldn't have to stumble on this kind of scum and have to do ourself the work of justice, which if it was efficient would have condemned him.
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Now for someone who claims to do work of justice, you seem to be jumping to conclusions here in labeling me as white and racist (which is amusing because I'm not either)
But coming back to my point earlier, I was saying the community is blowing the issue out of proportion in the way they are tackling the problem. I never condoned the prejudice, I personally see it as a very stupid move that will hurt his business for some silly beliefs. But forming a lynch mob and posting a negative review on Steam is not going to help either. Tell me this, what self-respecting person will believe a review which has nothing to do with the game? They will probably think it is a troll and ignore it. I'd rather have people offended by this to just boycott the game and not use the community here as a soapbox.
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I don't disagree, bad reviews should be related to the game itself. When it comes to illegal discrimination however, in a perfect world (of justice) this person would be automatically spotted and condemned with the appropriate fine (which would in fact ruin his profit, fuck him), then period he can move on try to sell his game or do another and continue to think what he wants, until he makes another illegal discriminative act.
But we're not in such a world, and it's not reviews that should be the reaction but contacting Steam to remove this publisher for the store, not because he made an homophobic tweet which would be another problem to be dealt differently, but he directly verbally assaulted a customer. Whether it's racist, misogynistic (not talking about sexist joke but straight-up verbal assault or insult) or homophobic, he should pay the consequences of this specific act in this specific context.
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Indeed and the point I've been making since the beginning is to boycott the game instead of posting false reviews. Contacting Steam and getting a response would be troublesome considering that in the grand scheme of things, this is a minor infraction and I've never seen Steam interfere in these. But let us see how this unfolds. it is already reaching drama stage.
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Maybe you dont read my review, I said I tried to play the game, however crashed in my two attempts, making it impossible for me to go beyond the start screen, then the review is negative for the game also
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I did read your review but I was talking about creating this post and what you are asking people to do here, which is judging the game based on your experience with the developer. You just need to read the comments to your review to see it unfold into a drama. It actually ends up making your review look biased.
Do you understand what I mean? I'm not criticising your game review but the fact that you are using the review as a platform to air your grievances with the developer. I mean, the actual review amounts to barely 4 lines of badly constructed sentences. The rest of it is you trying to show everyone how much of a victim you are.
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Ok, I try one more, the game is a shit because crashes before you can play it, the rest is a warning to anyone dont waste money with this publisher (who agree, people like you who think that fight for LGBT rights is drama, can keep the opition of sustaining them)
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I keep going back to read my posts and I cannot fathom how you managed to interpret them to take me as someone who thinks you shouldn't fight for your rights. Go back and read it again and then try to understand what I am saying here. You seem to be totally missing the entire point of my argument.
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They're basically saying "would you have reviewed the game positively if you liked it, despite how you were treated?" The problem with combining dev/publisher reviews into a game review is that it looks more like a rant than an unbiased game review. I don't really see any other solution to the problem though since devs can delete discussion posts in the forums.
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Because a dumb white homophobe cunt. It's actually forbidden by discrimination and commercial laws EVERYWHERE to refuse to sell or apply the same prices and prizes to everyone indiscriminately. You don't have a right to sell to white people and not sell to black people or homosexuals because you're a racist homophobe for example.
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People like yo scare me. Not sure if you are a troll or serious about what you are writing.
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Being gay is punishable by death in several countries, so that "EVERYWHERE" is clearly false.
And your example makes no sense, the game is available on Steam for everyone (and guess what, the price is not the same for everyone, just like what happens with any other game on Steam)
I'm not even sure if you're serious though...
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Well of course, everywhere in the civilised world, not in Saudi Arabia.
You didn't understand my point. Steam prices have to be the same for everyone in a same market, except for preferential deals bases on customer and business reasons, not discrimination of person.
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and people are free to boycott the developers for their ridiculously close-minded and prejudicial attitudes and to share information of those attitudes to others so they can decide for themselves whether they want to take that information into account or not as well
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How about to report game on steam store page? Reporting have option wich needed.
I'm sent already
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Probably won't help. I don't think steam can do anything as long as the game and dev follow the ToS. And since this didn't happen on steam, it's kind of pointless to report it there.
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Absolutely shocking behaviour, but given the review I saw I don't think LGBT folks are missing out much if they don't get a free key...
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wtf? this is nonsense what they did..... I don't know what to say :/ (I will never understand homophobia and the other stuff ... )
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Wait, wait, let me guess: developer is from CIS region. Correct?
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Even if they are, your assumption is just as insulting as their reply to OP.
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My assumption would be just realistic and showing the efectiveness of propaganda. Second guess would have been SEA.
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Your assumption is a simple discriminative prejudice towards people from certain region which has nothing in common with reality.
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So… the Russian government is totally not doing a constant anti-gay/lesbian/whatever propaganda? Because, you know, it kinda has its own wikipedia article…
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Oh, it gets better, how about a (proposed?) law that puts someone in jail for being gay?
But, you know, I'm prejudiced.
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Nope. Every idiot can write every stupid thing in wikipedia really. Yes there is a law that prohibits distribution of LGBT-related materials to minors, but that's it. Basically the only restriction it has is that movies, books etc containing scenes of same-sex relationship receive 18+ rating. Nothing more.
There's a bunch of crazy people like Vitaly Milonov that want to harshen the laws, but they're the minority and tell you what, Milonov is gay himself (an inside info from a gay friend of mine).
In general, homosexual people have it pretty easy in Russia. There's a bunch of well-known and respected open gay artist and entertainers, a lot of gay clubs in most major cities (the best night club in Sochi, the city which hosted Winter Olympics, is in fact a gay club visited by famous people, gay and straight alike).
So yeah, don't believe everything that anti-russian propaganda tells you. There's a grain of truth but that's a very small grain. Nobody's oppressing homosexual people over here. And you definitely won't get thrown in jail or even fined for kissing your same sex partner in a public place or whatever scary stories tell.
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Well, honestly, it is a bit difficult for me to even hear anti-Russian propaganda. My country has turned into a de facto spokesperson of your country. We actually get Russian propaganda as state news here. ^_^ (Then again, the generation above me is used to it as they lived in it their whole lives, the one below me wasn't born yet when the Soviet troops unoccupied the country in '89.)
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Oh Hungary... I have a very good friend from Hungary in fact. From Hódmezővásárhely (had to copy it because no way I could type it). :)
As for propaganda... well, as I said in some other thread here, the media only tells you half the truth. If you want to know the other half, do your homework. That stays true for both Russian and anti-Russian propaganda. Both are equally bad.
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Hah! Good thing he wasn't from Kiskunfélegyháza. It's always funny to hear a foreigner even trying to say that too.
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Oh, so all Russians must be against gay people? Great logic. xD
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Well, based on what was said below, you are right, apparently it is all Slavs now, not just Russians. :)
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I don't understand how some people can be that bigoted. Is it the lack of education? The lack of love from their parents? What is it? XD
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No it's not if accurate. In fact if accurate this means that is a very deeply rooted reality.
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They're from Azerbaidjan, but I fail to see what difference does it make. Idiots are idiots no matter where they live. If you differentiate people by the place they live, then you're no better than them.
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Hm I see.. I swear I saw their steam group was tagged "from Brazil" or something.
But sure, no need to be prejudiced against certain countries. There are good and bad in every country or continent. So you can't put everyone into the same pot so to say. One just hears more about the bad the bigger the country is (plus our lovely leaker group makes us be a bit wary). That said I have plenty of good good friends from both Brazil and Russia. Heck even a russian friend of mine is the only one (except my bf and some irl friends) who knows my address. :) He sent me a postcard last year when he was on vacation^^
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Stupid people. Respect others, even if you don't need to agree with this or that. A little bit of human decency is what they need.
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people should start posting on their FB page- "Please, just f**k you." with a link to that image
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A little bit of me dies inside every time I read something like this. I can't believe that people can be so intolerant. Thanks for sharing this.
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How are you still alive? You must not read much since the entire world is a cesspool of intolerance born from religion.
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The world as a whole depresses me a lot. As for why I'm still alive , that is a question I ask myself daily.
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I didn't want to add that piece of trash to my steam account but now I'm gonna try to get a copy for sure.
Edit : for a negative review ! Jeez people, don't think everyone is a monster
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Give the guy the benefit of the doubt... maybe he wants it because he wants to leave a devastating review.
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If that was sarcastic it wasn't clear enough for me to get it... I think Chibi means small but other than that I don't know most of those Anime or Japan related words. If it wasn't nevermind ;)
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Wait, of course for a negative review !
I won 2 BL for being unclear :(
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That's one of the big downsides of text-only-communication. It's very easy for something to get Lost in Translation.
But don't worry most people here are obsessed with SG (just like me) and will probably check this thread every now and then and hopefully take you off again. By the way Blacklist graph won't show that because it apparently only counts the Blacklists you're added to and does not account for the ones you're removed from.
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That's just my fault, I didn't see it was ambiguous. Thanks anyway for giving me the benefit of the doubt, you're in my WL now.
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And me 6 times by saying its 2016 I already found one so I keep looking
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I see that, some people have sand in their vagina but I don't think we are losing that much.
I've even been blacklisted more times since I've clarified my position.
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indeed I wouldnt want to win a game from this people if I cant say my opinion about this subject anyway
I keep saying what could be wrong with loving someone?
But I truly dont want those ones to win anything from me either, so if they have any respect for their opinion they would let me know that they disagree with me before using the sneaky bl attack
I find this a sign of being a coward not to engage in a discussion.................
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Yeah, there are some adolescents in this community :)
I wonder how many BL I will get ^^
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Raaaaage how dare people not accept everyone like I do.
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Telling you to go fuck yourself is a liiiittle bit different than "not accepting", don't you think?
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Probably not judging by the people insulting other users here for not agreeing.
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Look, a CRW, a Conservative Racist Warrior who use SJW cunts as an excuse to be a coward racist and homophobe. Racist fag.
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Look a SJW so mad, that he is using homophobic (sic!) slur towards people who disagree with him. Nice going.
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Look a dumb CRW cunt who uses SJW tactics with everyone who's just not a racist homophobic fag (in the Louis CK sense of course).
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Lol I don't think I have ever been called a homophobe and a fag in the same breath. Thanks for emphasizing my point though bro.
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what you expect they only can resort of name calling. You must conform to their little trendy cult or you will be labeled as whatever flavor of the month insulting buzzword they heard on tv. :)
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You don't have to be homophobic to be anti-LGBT. LGBT is very much political now, it's not about sexuality anymore.
Also, we don't have the technology to make Trans people anything other than cheap knock-offs. Not yet. Hopefully we will. But we don't. If a trannie tells you he's a "woman", he's lying straight to your face, and to himself, too.
Also, these people's "life deck" is nothing but victim cards.
Other than that, they're as cool as anyone else. Often times better than other people. Often times worse.
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Also you don't have to be homophobic to use the term "fag" in good faith like Louis C.K. explained well. In fact if for you "fag" is an insult, then you are the homophobic one.
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Well, TBH, while originally "fag" wasn't an insult, now it's almost exclusively one. Languages constantly evolve, change, and words change meaning. For example, "gay" simply meant "happy", but now it means "homosexual man". "Fag" turned into an insult over time.
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What an ass developer, i report them to steam for a hate speach.
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Aaaaand this is why people become anti-LGBT. "You were mean, I repot u to unrelated service over a non-crime!"
-Edit- Let's take a gander at Wikipedia's opening explanation of hate speech.
Hate speech, outside the law, is speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation.
In the law of some countries, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it incites violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group.
So I can see functionally three different uses for the term. Being a bigoted asshole. A form of conspiracy/nuisance. And a form of harassment/assault. The latter two are crimes in their own right, though it escapes me why it needs to be tied to the concept of 'speech' in particular and the quagmire that entails. But Dream Games' (the dev) FB post obviously constitutes neither legal definition. For sure they're bigoted assholes, but that's not illegal. While bigotry is irrational, ugly, and to some extent destructive, I contend Free Speech and Free Belief are values too important to give up any ground on. Ergo being a bigotted asshole shouldn't be grounds for either legal action or extralegal mobbing. But counter-discrimination, sure.
It has come to light that Operation Caucasus is no longer available to purchase on Steam. So Valve had shut it down.This is more likely to do with the devs offering keys in exchange for positive publicity, which is known to be against Valve's policies, than with a dev being a raging bellend. To my recollection, only Paranautical Activity has been removed from Steam for something a developer said. But in that case it involved a death threat against Valve staff.
As the laughinman explained below, people are free to report as an exercise of their own rights. I still contend that appealing to higher powers to smite someone for their unappealing character traits or behavior rather than genuine misconduct is a juvenile thing to do. And juvenile antics have a habit of fostering counter-sentiment.
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Actually depending on where you live, hate speech is a crime. So I have no idea what you're on about. Also, because this really does need to be said, people don't become anti-LGBT because of that reason they're already anti-LGBT and now have an "excuse".
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In Facebook and Valve's jurisdiction (the US) it isn't, yet. And elsewhere, it shouldn't.
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Yes it is because not everybody is a racist scum like you, so there's no problem for the rest of the world.
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"Thank you for proving my point" aka SJW favorite unrethorical argument to actually prove no point
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He explained that being mean to someone is not a crime (freedom of speech includes being free to be an asshole), and in turn you insult him.
You're the problem here.
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True! However, not giving something to someone you don't like for stupid reasons is not harassement. It would be, if OP was entitled to that key. He wasn't.
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Harassment is harassment. Bigotry is not harassment.
Free speech isn't 'limited' in harassment cases. The speech in those instances is just the vehicle for the actual tort.
A single FB comment isn't harassment, unless the commenter knew the recipient was genuinely psychologically vulnerable and would be distressed.
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You have zero understand of the law. Being mean is okay unless it becomes either verbal assault (here under the form of homophobic discrimination) or harassment.
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Yeah, no. I get called worse very often, for as much as losing a game or disagreeing with someone on a very subjective subject, but I don't get to yell "harassement! verbal assault!" because I am a young white heterosexual man.
What LGBT community calls "harassement", to the rest of us, is "just another day among assholes". If I had a penny for every time I was on a receiving end of such "scandal", I'd be able to buy a really nice car. People can be colossal dicks. Having a spine is very useful these days.
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It doesn't really work that way, both Valve and Facebook are privately owned companies. Free speech in the US only means that the government can't arrest you and put you in jail. Facebook and Valve are free to deal with the situation as they see fit. Which is why if you report it they can do something about it. What people don't seem to understand is that free speech doesn't mean no consequences. So all the people who get angry because they went on a racist rant on facebook, or valve and it got published and they lost their job, again consequences for being stupid. You're allowed to say what you want, just don't bitch and whine when you get fired or punished by your company for saying it.
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Because only the law is important, not the value the law was written to protect and enshrine. But, yes, you are correct. Facebook and Valve have power over thier platforms and has legal power to shape discourse on it.
Doesn't mean they ought to bend over to the demands of manchildren crying about hurt feelings when no actual tort has been committed.
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The value of the law is being upheld, the whole point of the law was to protect people who criticized the government, it prevents the government from retaliating. Saying that there should be no consequences for speech is stupid. If I called my lover a hare-brained idiot, and they proceeded to dump me. I don't then whine about freedom of speech. Or call them a crybaby. People are allowed to be offended, do I personally think that people these day get offended to easily? Yes. Do I think that the answer to that is shutting down speech? Or worse cleaning up history? God no.
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+1 Yes, people are allowed to say whatever they want, but other people are also allowed to feel offended and say something about that.
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I never said there can't be consequence. What I am saying is that appealing to higher powers (state or private) to forcefully shut down the opposition based on hurt feelings is a sign neither of strength nor virtue.
I won't protect what Dream Games' representative said or did. And note I never said that this whole thread in general was whining. It isn't. This dev was an asshole, and we're all better off knowing that they are.
But wanting to punish someone who has committed no tort, is not commendable. It's infantile.
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I don't like people shutting down speech. I do think some people shouldn't speak because they're idiots, but that's a personal preference. One that clearly isn't working no matter how hard I wish (Also I realize that may seem like a jab towards you, but it really is just commentary on the world at large).
At the same time this is just a continuation of freedom of speech, you're allowed to complain to the higher ups. You're allowed to inform people to the point where it changes consumer opinion. All anyone is doing is battling Dream games free speech with opposing speech and tying it with free market principles. If that "shuts down" Dream Game's free speech by negatively impacting their business, this is what we call a consequence. They can no longer do business but they are free to continue to hold their beliefs. They are free to continue to say it. I don't really care, but this isn't a tort case. No one is being sued, no one is trying to prove damages, this doesn't have to rise to the level of tort, because in the end Valve or Facebook can do whatever the hell they want based on their TOS. If they determine that Dream Game's broke their TOS and want to remove the game they are within their legal right to do so. Also what we call a consequence.
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A well written retort. I stand corrected.
Well, except for the TOS part. I'm pretty sure being a homophobic asshole is not prohibited in any part of Dream Game's contracts with Valve. Unless it's directed at Valve themselves. Though in that case it involved an actual potential death threat and not vanilla bigotry.
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And as I read somewhere, if citing free speech is your only defense, it basically means that what you're saying it's not technically illegal. Which is pretty much outing yourself on how much of a fucking bigot you are.
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Or it could be that free speech is a sufficient justification, being, y'know, a fundamental right in a free society.
Your statement reminds me of "If you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to hide."
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Well, if your only defense to your argument is that its not technically illegal to say it out loud, I'd kind of reconsider what I was going to say.
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Argument 1. Please do demonstrate how mean words constitute a tort and thus should be prohibited.
Argument 2: Free speech advocates don't argue that hate speech isn't illegal, they argue that shutting down hate speech opens the door to all manners of other abuse.
Argument 3: Just because something is illegal elsewhere doesn't mean it should be illegal everywhere. Or anywhere for that matter.
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I mean, if you're just gonna make whatever arguments up and argue against them...
Discriminating is prohibited, full stop. Advocate free speech all you want, but if you're being a jerk and a bigot, and your last defense is pleading "Freedom of Speech" I'll reconsider my ideologies in life.
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Yes, reaching for those arguments was bad form on my part. I really should have just reiterated my previous statement: free speech is a sufficient defense. What right do you have to shut the bigot up? Should bigots be encouraged? No. Should bigots be listened to? No. Should bigots be laughed at? Sure. Should bigots be caged for wrongthink? Should bigots have their mouths sewn shut? The solution to undesirable discourse is not to shut it down, it's to counter it with higher discourse.
And my argument 1 was a legitimate query. How does 'hate speech' inflict harm on individuals? Conspiracy to harm and harassment already have their own terms and are legitimate crimes by any sane standard. But if I was to say, I dunno "Moon Man Moon Man can't you see, niggers and spics gotta hang from trees." How is that anything more than just poor taste?
Shit, banning weed seems to make more sense because at least someone's life is detrimentally affected when it's smoked. That of the toker. But I imagine you're in favor of this form of destructive behavior, right? But ungood-words gotta be shut down?
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And feminists, LGBT, BLM, and all the other left-wing identitarianists aren't as hateful as the bigoted right?
I'm anti LGBT, but I'm not homophobic. I'm such not because I hate gay people. What goes on in other people's bedrooms is not my business as long as I don't then catch hitchhikers. But because I see LGBT'ers trying to push disgenic, socially maladaptive norms that do intrude upon my own existence, I take an opposing stance. I'm not anti-gay. I'm anti-pride walk/affirmative action/cis-shaming.
-Edit- I guess explicitly separating my opinion of a demographic from that of the movement that claims to represent it still brands me as a Stupid Omni-Bigoted Fascist in the eyes of a good proportion of SG's forum user base. Judging by the particular responses of certain other users I doubt this was a problem of bad wording. But perhaps I'll give it another go for shits and giggles.
As I had stated multiple times, the demographic is not the movement. The flag is not the nation. And people's opinions of one do not reflect on their opinions of the other. I've stated my position regarding gay/bisexual/trans people: I bear no ill-will to them, and I wish them all the best in their struggles against political and social stigma. The LGBT movement, however, is, shall we say... problematic?
Minority or majority doesn't really matter when its a certain set of people that are making headlines, hitting the streets, having media banned, degrading the integrity of academia and journalism, having lies parroted by state leaders, and managing mental gymnastics of Olympic achievement by supporting the import of actual rape culture. All this while demonizing those who don't cow tow to them and bullshitting that their unethical behavior isn't unethical because 'they don't have power'. Quite.
The sources I cite do not, strictly speaking, relate to the LGBT movement. But it should be plainly obvious to anyone with an eye and two brain cells that the LGBT movement heavily overlaps feminist, anti-racist, and other progressive movements that fly the banner of social justice. They employ similar tactics, hold similar beliefs, and hold a common ideological stand against the values and systems of the civilization that built the socioeconomic environment that allowed them to exist in the first place. Follow the threads and you may come to conclusion, as I have, that social justice does not aim to create social capital ("it's about equality!"), but instead seeks to liquidate it ("we're more equal than you!"). It's a movement so cannibalistic, they'll even go after their own. For these reasons and more, I called the LGBT agenda (and by extension, social justice) disgenic and socially maladaptive.
But here I'll re-emphasize that this does not mean I believe being gay/bi/trans is disgenic or socially maladaptive, or that rights should not be extended to gay/bi/trans persons.
As for anti-pride walk? Well...
Anti-affirmative action? Well it's obviously non-meritocratic. But it also promotes discrimination in the form of low expectations towards 'affirmed' groups. It's harder to take your female/black/gay/trans coworker seriously if you're wondering if they got the job because of diversity quotas.
And finally, anti-cis-shaming? I think you can figure that out for yourself. Cowlikesapricot claims I just have a victim complex, which is fucking rich considering the subject matter. But note I never claimed oppression. I claimed that social justice norms intrude upon my existence in ways I don't favor, not oppress. I've already linked and described examples of how. I'm no more 'oppressed' by LGBT or social justice than I am from vanilla political parties. In fact demonstrably less so since the Laws Of Tumblr And Yale are not the Laws Of The Land. God help us all if they make the transition.
I'm not here to appeal to social justice warriors, the politically correct, or my blacklisters. Your knee-jerk, shallow, and/or petulant reactions have been noted. I am here to appeal to those who have not hypocritically shut their minds yet claim they're wide open. I make distinction between the movement and the demographic. The claim and the practice. The narrative and the reality. To many that makes me pariah. They see what they were taught to see, what they want to see. They'd spit upon me as I'm sure they imagine I spit upon others. They somehow manage to care enough to pass judgement, but not enough to analyze the subjects of their attention in good faith. Real wisdom and tolerance requires far more character than that.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as has shown to be the case with Dream Games, the developer of Operation Caucasus. Information has come to light since I originally posted here that this developer is indeed dishonest, bigoted, and vile. But sometimes, sometimes it pays off to give the benefit of the doubt. Truth is rarely simple, and may appear wicked at first glance. Sometimes a person with a controversial opinion, is just a guy with a controversial opinion. They could be right, they could be wrong. But don't assume malice where none has been demonstrated (and I mean in both senses of the word 'assume').
And finally, a PSA: If you value not getting blacklisted, never post anything remotely controversial at the bottom of the first page. That's where all the people invested in the topic congregate in their search for the Next Page.
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Holy shit, just a couple more cliches in this thread and I'll get bingo.
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Okay what two people do in there bedroom, is what two people do in their bedroom. The fact that they have rights that everyone else has has no bearing on you. So again, if you don't want people from the LGBT community bothering you don't sleep with members of the same sex. It's really that simple. This is a non-issue. But the moment you start passing judgement on another person's life you become the problem. Not a solution.
Is there a problem when it comes to people on either side of the issue going to far? Yes. But that's an SJW problem and I pointed out that there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting the same rights for everyone, so long as it doesn't take away others. Treating people equally is a lofty goal, but I do think it can be done. What doesn't work is if you start making people into the other. I think it's stupid to blame white men for everything, or dismiss a comment because it's made from a white straight man, they have perspectives as well and it goes against the core of what SJWs should stand for.
I think some of the arguments are stupid. But you're not looking at the ideas or doing any research onto why they're going out and complaining. LGBT people want the same rights as everyone else. They are not asking for anything different, they are not asking for more rights, they want the same protections as other people. In the US the law does protect minorities for very good reason, because the history is littered with examples of governments treating them terribly. The Japanese, Black people, LGBT people. So yes, the LGBT had walks just like black people had walks so they could vote, so that they could get rid of Jim Crow laws, and there is nothing inherently wrong with a peaceful movement. If you're against that, then you are a bigot, even if you think you aren't.
How does someone asking the police not to shoot them effect you in anyway shape or form? By the way despite what you might think BLM helps you as well, because the police need to be held accountable. Right now we basically have the Stanford Prison experiment run amok in the police departments throughout America and even if they are caught doing something wrong it's swept under the rug. How does someone living their life and being happy, affect you at all? Anti-LGBT is really just coded language for I don't want those people to be protected. I don't care if they get kicked out of their apartments or get fired for just living their lives. I don't care if they get harassed or correctively raped because they are different. I don't care if they get tortured, or they have high rates of suicide because they're different. What it says to everyone who is paying attention is that you are either inherently selfish, or you're cruel, or you're one of those people who wouldn't stand up for rights for others.Either way not a good place to be.
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Okay what two people do in there bedroom, is what two people do in their bedroom. The fact that they have rights that everyone else has has no bearing on you. So again, if you don't want people from the LGBT community bothering you don't sleep with members of the same sex. It's really that simple. This is a non-issue. But the moment you start passing judgement on another person's life you become the problem. Not a solution.
You started conflating the movement with the demographic. There's a reason why I explicitly separated the two. To make a less controversial comparison, hating, say, the Chinese government and its policies is not the same as hating the Chinese people. As I thought I made clear, I'm don't have any strong feelings about LGBT people one way or the other. I do have problems with their self-appointed representatives and the bullshit they spin.
Is there a problem when it comes to people on either side of the issue going to far? Yes. But that's an SJW problem and I pointed out that there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting the same rights for everyone, so long as it doesn't take away others. Treating people equally is a lofty goal, but I do think it can be done.
LGBT is not an egalitarian movement, neither is feminism or BLM for that matter. They're political movements carried out to promote the agenda of their constituent members, in the name of their demographics. LGBT isn't pro-equality, it's pro LGBT. Note: There is nothing inherently wrong about this. It's how politics has and always will work and is natural. Things make much more sense when you don't fall for the egalitarianism spiel.
What doesn't work is if you start making people into the other. I think it's stupid to blame white men for everything, or dismiss a comment because it's made from a white straight man, they have perspectives as well and it goes against the core of what SJWs should stand for.
I'm glad we agree on that. But I hope you realize SJWs not standing for the things they ought to isn't a minor problem.
I think some of the arguments are stupid. But you're not looking at the ideas or doing any research onto why they're going out and complaining. LGBT people want the same rights as everyone else. They are not asking for anything different, they are not asking for more rights, they want the same protections as other people. In the US the law does protect minorities for very good reason, because the history is littered with examples of governments treating them terribly. The Japanese, Black people, LGBT people. So yes, the LGBT had walks just like black people had walks so they could vote, so that they could get rid of Jim Crow laws, and there is nothing inherently wrong with a peaceful movement. If you're against that, then you are a bigot, even if you think you aren't.
What rights do they lack, exactly? For the most part their objectives are being achieved, and then some. Gay marriage is now legal in the US. Gays are celebrated in media and academia. Gays are more likely to get a job because of diversity quotas.
Also, funny thing about Jim Crow. They protested segregation, but now they want it back in the form of safe spaces. Tell me, the fuck is up with that?
How does someone asking the police not to shoot them effect you in anyway shape or form?
By the way despite what you might think BLM helps you as well, because the police need to be held accountable. Right now we basically have the Stanford Prison experiment run amok in the police departments throughout America and even if they are caught doing something wrong it's swept under the rug.
This is less a problem with racist cops than with cops in general. The job requirements select for low empathy and limited intelligence. They're mercenaries to enforce state law, not defenders of the people. People historically had more to fear from the police than from foreign powers.
How does someone living their life and being happy, affect you at all? Anti-LGBT is really just coded language for I don't want those people to be protected. I don't care if they get kicked out of their apartments or get fired for just living their lives. I don't care if they get harassed or correctively raped because they are different. I don't care if they get tortured, or they have high rates of suicide because they're different. What it says to everyone who is paying attention is that you are either inherently selfish, or you're cruel, or you're one of those people who wouldn't stand up for rights for others.Either way not a good place to be.
Once more, the map is not the territory. The party is not the nation. The movement is not the demographic. Being not pro-LGBT-movement doesn't mean anti-gay, any more than not being pro pineapple is being anti-fruit. I would take up arms to defend your right to say your mind, to (dis)associate with whoever you want, and to protest unjustice. What I won't do is clap my hands when you put on assless chaps, then dance in the streets singing about the imagined injustices you suffer from Mighty Whitey and demand I supplicate myself.
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I understand where you're coming from and as I said, I don't agree with many of the arguments or the behaviors on both sides. I can understand both sides of the argument to some degree which is why I generally fall somewhere in the middle of these things.
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Again, you're not going to find someone who dislikes the idea of safe spaces and trigger warnings more than me. It's stupid. We can both agree on that. As for what rights do they lack? Whether you like it or not people in power are still playing with people's lives. Look whether you like it or not until a point in the future when people are more evolved on this issue, the LGBT as in the members of the demographic do still need to be protected. When you can lose your job, or housing or whatever stupid laws are on the books that target members of the demographic, then there is an issue. People are still arguing over sodomy laws. They aren't protected, also you're conflating privileges with rights and I'm not going to get into an affirmative action argument with you.
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I believe in social justice on a principle because I do believe that it's an egalitarian principle. I'm not going to get into 3rd wave feminism vs the first wave. I do hope you at least understand why we needed them back then right? Again, I have no problem with people wanting to asking for rights that were denied. The right to vote, the right to inherit property, the right to equal wage (back then). I do think that the self-proclaimed SJW crowd has become rather extremist.
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I agree, on the cop issue. I believe that they need to be trained better. But let's not deny that there is some racism involved, but that the racism is conflated with a socioeconomic issue, in what becomes a vicious cycle. Do I agree in BLM's name? No. Do I get why they did it? Yes. Is it the most offensive thing about the movement? Hardly, if you're getting caught up in a name instead of looking at why they're fighting then I think you're missing the point. There is a problem with the culture in the police department across America, not all of them are bad, but some of them are. Wanting to hold them accountable is not the worst thing in the world. Power is corrupting and we give them the power to kill citizens. Something needs to be done.
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I have a strong—distaste for gay pride parades. And not because I'm a prude. I have an issue because I feel it does more harm to the movement than good. This is not a prudish thing on my part, it's the same problem I have with SJW's who go after white-males and dismiss them. You can't make the argument that it doesn't matter who I sleep with, that I'm a normal human being who is just like you. That I'm more than just who I sleep with and slap on the overtly sexual element in it. If a gay pride parade was simply gay people marching without the overt sexuality then attitudes might have changed quicker. But if I want to go see guys in assless chaps, there are places for that. I don't want to see it being paraded down main street. Do I understand why it started? Yes and No, I just think that it's stupid to put the two of them together.
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I believe in social justice on a principle because I do believe that it's an egalitarian principle. I'm not going to get into 3rd wave feminism vs the first wave. I do hope you at least understand why we needed them back then right? Again, I have no problem with people wanting to asking for rights that were denied. The right to vote, the right to inherit property, the right to equal wage (back then). I do think that the self-proclaimed SJW crowd has become rather extremist.
Whenever I hear the word 'equality' I reach for my revolver. [/fash] Full disclosure time, I'm a card carrying pseudo-reactionary anarcho-capitalist. So I'm in the camp that equality is the death of excellence, and that democracy has proven to be an auto-cannibalistic, anti-meritocratic race to the cultural bottom. As for feminism... There were things to Not Like about 1st wave feminism (Warning: Shitlord channel). Such is democracy: demographic blocs vying to extract as much capital (social as well as fiscal) from the public treasury for their own ends. A couple of centuries and society becomes fiscally and culturally bankrupt. You'll understand that I'm therefore skeptical about social justice when a distinction is made between it and vanilla justice.
Equal pay and equal right to inheritance are baller tho. But let's be honest, wage pay and individualized property ownership only became widespread during the Industrial Revolution. Agricultural economy had completely different social and property setups that would make demands for equal pay/inheritance rather pointless. Female economic equality is not an ancient problem only just being rectified, but a new problem brought about by a new socioeconomic order that was thankfully sorted out rather quickish all things considered. (inb4 "77c" fallacy)
I agree, on the cop issue. I believe that they need to be trained better.
Training can't change a jackass into a racehorse. You hand badges to thugs to enforce the rules, you get brutality. The best you can do is put them on leashes. That means body cams and sousveillance. Beyond that you need to draw upon other systems or develop a new law enforcement model entirely.
Do I agree in BLM's name? No. Do I get why they did it? Yes. Is it the most offensive thing about the movement? Hardly, if you're getting caught up in a name instead of looking at why they're fighting then I think you're missing the point. There is a problem with the culture in the police department across America, not all of them are bad, but some of them are.
There are alternatives interpretations to BLM. (Warning, Übershitlord Channel)
*I don't necessarily share all the opinions of the YouTubers I linked.
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You're just like all the other PC morons, you like to get people to argue with you so you can start name calling and acting like you're any different than the people you don't agree with. Everyone has a right to their opinion, no matter how right or wrong, who are you to judge anyone? You're no better than the rest of us and if you think you are that makes you just like the people you seem to hate. Get a fucking life.
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"I will not let people say whatever the fuck they want...." Who are you to judge what can be said? And also good luck with trying to stop them, I'm sure that's going to turn out well.
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Exactly, if they want to have their own shitty, bigoted, discriminating , neo-fascist opinons, so be it. But the moment they publicate them on a public forum, they are exposed to critizism and to being called out on their own stupidity.
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I woke up this morning and I am sure I was already branded a racist homophobic and whatever buzzword insult by your trendster cult. It has gotten so stale that you guys are just going to plug your ears and throw a temper tantrum like some spoiled brat because we don't agree with everything pop culture shoves down our throats. Please keep calling us nasty names, they lose meaning the more you use them :)
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well when every middle school-college age low info trendster jumps on this bandwagon, I sure as heck will call it trendy. Just because some tv show(s) repeat it over and over, doesn't make it normal or right, and this applies to many things.
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>Says that people name call.
>Opens his paragraph by telling them they're morons
>mfw
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I don't see the point of this comment. Both sides have extremists? Yeah, no shit. Are you saying that the anti feminist, blm, lgtb, ect extremists aren't worse than the extremists they're against? Because I kinda think that's wrong. The extremist leaders support atrocious policies and horrible action, depending on what you side with, but extremists members of left-wing identitarianists don't beat up and murder conservatives because they hate them, it's the other way around.
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The point of the comment was that "They hate because they are hateful people." is a tautalogical non-argument, and that the Narrative of LGBT's as innocent angels/brave freedom fighters being persecuted is bunk.
but extremists members of left-wing identitarianists don't beat up and murder conservatives because they hate them, it's the other way around.
Holy shit are you wrong. These are not all anti-right-wing actions, nor did all of them get physical. But leftists are as aggressive as anyone. Those ideologies are rooted in justifying the forcible extraction of what they want from those who have. That necessitates zeal and aggression.
I'm sure I can find even better examples if you're disinclined to actually look them up yourself. I'd recommend it, if only to see for yourself just how left-biased the mainstream media really is.
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Don't try to Motte 'n' Bailey me. You know damn well the focus of discussion here is about western LGBT. Are the Middle East, Africa, and Eastern Europe hotbeds of LGBT persecution? Yes. Are pride walks, cis shaming and propaganda for their sake? Uh, no? Yes, I keep coming back to those subjects because those (and precisely those) are what I have the problem with, as I thought I made abundantly clear the first time round. I'm not applying observations of a vocal minority to a whole population. I'm not condemning that population's existence, or their rights, or their right to fight for their rights.
The Movement. Is Not. The Demographic. And the western movement is not the eastern movement is not the world movement. And the western movement has plenty of problems that make it impossible for me to sympathize with it. Namely, a great deal of its vocal members go out of their way to offend me by portraying my own demographic as an evil needing to be crushed.
But my reaction when I heard the US Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal? "About fucking time."
If I used Twitter? I'd follow Milo Yiannopoulos.
"There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation."? A rare occurrence of a Head of State not talking utter bullshit.
"They hate because they are hateful people."
This is a tautological non-argument of no substance. Why do people hate? It's not a simple answer. Human emotion and behavior are not usually rational, but they are purposeful. It bears analysis. If you can know the why, you can get to how-to-fix. Name calling the 'hateful' as ignorant solves nothing. Closing your ears is your prerogative, but it does not lower net ignorance. So may I put forward a theory for you?
East Europe, Middle East, and Africa are all predominantly homophobic because in a socioeconomic sense they're not modern. Culturally they're still attached to an age when people had to reproduce, for the benefit of family, clan, king and church. Child mortality was horrific, disease was endemic, meager inheritances had to be secured by a following generation. Not having grandkids was not an option. Agricultural economies can't sustain LGBT. And the cultural mechanisms, religion, law, etc. adapted to fit that environmental condition, turning practical considerations into (negatively) emotional ones. And historically the most sexually liberal areas (and they were sexually liberal) were the urban centers. Rome and Athens are the obvious ones. Cities were the only places that could afford people not engaging in reproduction. Now I'm pretty sure there was a massive divide between abrahamic and pagan cultural norms that bears analysis, but I'm disinclined to write since I expect you're disinclined to read.
Point being, social liberalization can only occur when economic expansion permits it. When the industrial revolution changed the world, it made LGBT acceptance possible. And so far, rampant war, communism, and Islam (as a cultural force) have all suffocated economic development in Africa, East Europe and Middle East respectively. As such cultural norms are still restrictive there.
If this theory bears out, that means that I shouldn't have any reason to hate gay people, being a middle class citizen in a wealthy country without strong ties to my ancestor's religion. And guess what, I don't. My antagonism, because it's still not hate, is directed at a different target for different reasons. If I called you a deluded cretin, you'd be insulted, yes? Well, when I'm made out to be a villain when I've done nothing actually wrong to merit the label, I don't take kindly to it. Especially when it's coming from this caliber of person. That's why I say anti-LGBT, but not anti-gay. Because the flag and the flag bearer are not the nation, and that guy's been a prick.
I don't hate gays, but I do dislike triggered SJWs and SJW politicking. The moment the LGBT movement stops shitting on me for being cis-white, I won't have qualms standing with them to fight whatever stupid bullshit limitations state power presses on them. As I mentioned elsewhere I'm an anarcho-capitalist. ie, a libertarian. More freedom for them works out to more freedom for me in the long run, for all of us. But it's tit-for-tat.
So please, step down from your high horse, take off the black'n'white shades and consider that contrary/offesnive analysis and opinion do not necessarily constitute hate, harm, ignorance, or stupidity.
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You don't like the LGBT community because you have a persecution complex.
That's fucking rich. And when did I claim persecution or minority status? I keep trying to make things clearer but all you want to see is a straw man. Have fun burning it, I guess.
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I didn't try to rationalize. I didn't even really comment on the morality of it. I offered a theory for why the discrimination started way back when, and only started being addressed recently. In an agricultural society marriage was an investment plan, and grand kids were the retirement plan. The abrahamic religions took that, pushed biased into full on persecution in order to create a convenient Other to rally against, and rationalized it as the Will of God. "Be fruitful and multiply" and all that. Centuries later the cultural inertia becomes difficult to overcome, at least until standards of living improve to the point that exploring alternatives to the Old Way becomes viable and individual liberation take place.
Or did hatred sprout into being Just Because? Even plain old xenophobia has roots in tribal instincts. Doesn't mean they're justified in our day and age. But saying "They hate because they are hateful" is a non sequitur. A cop-out claim.
What do you call this non-sense? The "whole" movement was mean to you so fuck them? Stop.
Don't tell me you don't realize that saying a politically incorrect joke at the office is grounds for career derailment these days. Don't tell me SJWs of all stripes don't have a nasty habit of ganging up on those who don't drink their kool-aid. Don't tell me I can't feel indignant when the history of my ancestors is being reduced to "White men oppressed", and then I'm told to pay back for it.
Let's try an comparison with a different, (perhaps) less controversial subject. The Chinese government. The Chinese government is not the Chinese people. And while not all members of this government are reprehensible people, many of them are, in positions high and low. And the institution as a whole is an ugly blight in desperate need of replacement with something better.
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I'm a white straight BEARDED male who, to put it under an umbrella, has supported anti-oppression causes for close to 20 years and have never personally felt attacked for being a cis-dude who loves banging cis-ladies(see, that's an example of levity). The times I felt like I was being used as an example of or forced into being an apologist for all white men I called people on their bullshit.Sure, there are hardliners from all movements and some of them feel they have to be that way due to the things they've been forced to endure in their lives.Most, however, are rational people who would rather try to unite than divide.
The people who you call "SJWS" are a new breed of internet-raised "tumblr-tivists" who often need to be educated by people who have actually done activist work/community organizing in the real world.
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Reports and virtue signalling are not as high as public tantrums on the totem pole, but they're still on the totem pole. My only potential fault when I made that original claim was to read too deep into Dzimke's statement with a personal bias and a chip on my shoulder. As have you and several other users have done with mine, as is evidenced by your last comment completely ignoring the point I made with my Chinese Gov comparison. For one thing, many ≠ most.
And good for you that you don't feel like you're walking around eggshells because you never dare to stray to the edge of the Overton Window. Or God forbid, outside it. Are cis whites oppressed by LGBT? Of course fucking not. Oppression is fundamentally about people having their dignity denied to them. It's 're-education' camps, kangaroo courts and forced sterilization. It's being made an outcast in one's own homeland. Does LGBT deny dignity to white people? Well, no. Talking shit about a demographic is insulting, not oppressive, whether it happens in one direction or the other.
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You really are seeing only what you want to see. I wrote "Are cis whites oppressed by LGBT? Of course fucking not." right fucking before an example list of how actual oppression manifests. 'Forced sterilization' was in respect to how LGBT (in particular trans) were oppressed.
This whole time I've tried to argue in good faith. But you don't even bother do you? You saw what you interpreted as bigotry, and nothing will stop you seeing red. And you said you were done two days ago, but you came back for another round.
As for news sources. So far I have linked: Wikipedia, the New Yorks Times, The Federalist, Fox News, the Washington Times, ABC News, the American Enterprise Institute, a direct video from a Sanders rally, and two pundit videos that link their own sources for independent verification. How do you propose I spread my sources even further, and where in any of them was a conspiracy theory to be found?
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I believe I addressed that when I added my (way too long) edit to my earlier post. To sum it up: when it's that minority that has made themselves the public face of the movement, is the one affecting public policies, and the rest of the movement appear either unable or unwilling to clamp down on its bullshit, is it really so unfair to focus on the active shrill majority than the idle silent majority?
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Funny thing is, LGBT reps don't work in the countries where people are executed for being gay. They avoid these countries from faaaar away and stick to safe echochambers like USA.
LGBT is not an equality movement, it's a political movement in first-world countries, mainly USA.
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It's not both. LGBT is not pro-equality. It's purely political.
And your logic is not sound - if they don't go there, what's the point? I mean, look at black people - they were slaves, they were discriminated for decades, they fought and died for their cause, and they got what they deserved - equality. They didn't do by operating solely in their own countries.
LGBT movement focuses on first-world problems, playing victim cards on stupid crap and being more of an attention-hoarder rather than helping people.
I mean COME ON! There are people being KILLED for being gay, and appereantly a random out-of-context offensive statement is a bigger deal! What the fuck?!
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If they don't go there and start fighting (not in a literal way, btw), things will never change. Good job, you've achieved nothing. With that mindset, blacks would still be slaves, we wouldn't have democracy, and women would forever be bound to serve in kitchens, without any rights. I hope you're proud of yourself.
I wasn't talking about this specific incident when talking about context.
Geez, some dude is a gigantic asshole. Big deal, grow a spine. Non-LGBT people get as much hate for any random thing, and you don't see "us" whining all life about it. He was extremely unprofessional, and it's good he was fired, but what you call "scandal", for most of us, is just another day.
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You're right, of course they shouldn't! I know that, you know that, great! But people who execute gays don't know that, they believe they're the devils or whatever! It's not US that needs convincing, it's THEM! And by addressing US, LGBT will NEVER fix the horrible things that are happening to gays and bi in those other countries.
"Don't be an asshole" doesn't work when the one pulling the trigger believes he's doing God's work.
Also, read my post again. "random out-of-context offensive statement" - I wasn't talking about this key thing in particular.
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Sorry, I meant "US" not as "united states" but "us" (the group of people we belong to, the Western part of the world). We're not the ones that need to be worked on by LGBT movements.
"People here are mean to us!" Well, tough shit, somewhere else people like you get killed for stupid reasons. Clearly the attention is needed here, and not there...
We have the Internet, they don't. Even those that do have it, it's heavly censored. And people who need to be convinced LGBT isn't actually bad aren't going to go out of their way to find out why. You have to reach THEM, not wait for them to reach you, which will never happen.
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Yup, they can do more than one at the same time. Except in this example, they aren't.
"People get around censors all the time in other countries " - those aren't the people who send gays to be executed.
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And yet stupid shit like "this person's statement offended me" takes so much more spotlight... 99% of LGT efforts are located where they're less needed.
No, I don't think these people are cave dwellers with no technology. That's not my point - my point is that for these people to change for better, YOU have to reach THEM, not the other way around, because they believe they're right.
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I am not sure if you're even reading what I write.
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That's very convenient for you, huh. Where am I not making sense? In the part where I say people getting killed are more important than some spineless person's hurt feelings?
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Nothing great ever came out of keyboard-warrior-ing is what I'm saying.
Why am I not there? Because I don't really care. Bad shit is happening all over the world, and East from where I live, everyone's screwed, not just gays. But people who claim they care, they focus their efforts where they are LEAST needed. I'm not saying they have to go there and take on an army, but I am saying they could do better than an occasional Tumblr post.
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Like I've said - you can't change a bad law in those countries by posting stuff on the Internet. It just doesn't happen. Especially East from where I live. Country-wide censorship is something that is very popular there.
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The United States got same-sex marriage about a year ago. There is a change (a small one, in my opinion) it could be overturned with Donald Trump winning the election. The Republicans would love to get rid of it. Things are still not okay here. States are trying to pass laws that protect discrimination in response to it.
The argument I heard about repealing nation-wide same-sex marriage is that it was a law laid down by the Supreme Court instead of the legislative branch. The job of the court they say is to interpret law rather than create it. This argument does have merit depending on your particular views on stare decisis, the separation of powers, the jurisdiction of federal vs state government, and common vs. statutory law. I've already commented on my own summary opinion on the matter.
While doubtless many of the politicians who opposed the legalization are doing so because of 'de gayz'/one-man-one-woman/religion/what have you (or at least their voters do), i.e. arguing from rationalization rather than principle, a legitimate argument shouldn't be ignored because of that.
As for laws that protect discrimination. Discrimination is a consequence of freedom of association. Both association and disassociation are healthy behaviors in a free society, providing it's not imposed. Since you blacklisted me I'm sure you can appreciate the truth of this. Forced integration can be just as damaging as forced segregation, as the massive spike in criminal behavior in Europe as a result of the migrant influx can attest.
On a more local level, would you really want to work at a place if the only reason you're there is because the boss was legally obligated to accept you? Would you really feel accepted, valued, or even safe? And as for refusing to bake cakes for gay couples, as mentioned elsewhere there are other bakeries. Capitalism selects out unhealthy discriminatory behaviors because it's simply less profitable than tolerance. But what if instead of a gay couple it was, say, a visible ISIS supporter? Discrimination wouldn't be so unsavory then, would it? And that's before considering that a person's private property is a person's private property. If a man's home is his castle, that he can keep anyone out of providing they don't have a warrant, why doesn't this apply to his business?
We have the internet. It's a lot safer, and it accomplishes the same thing.
If history has taught us anything, "the pen is mightier than the sword" is bullshit when the swordsman can cut off the scribe's hands.
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1 - We are in agreement.
2 - Doesn't change that you demonstrably recognize disassociation/discrimination as a valid tool in certain circumstances. And I'm not honestly concerned with the blacklist. If I was I'd have deleted my posts a long time ago.
3 - The migrant crisis is a whole other can of worms except the fact that there is a crisis that the political class is doing a terrible job of handling. I'd rather leave it at that for the moment.
4 - When it comes to ethical scenarios, they require at least three independent parties (either individuals or groups). Two parties with a dispute, and the bystander to the dispute. If Party A has a problem with Party B they can simply go to Party C for alternative service or to arbitrate the dispute. The 'other bakeries' constitute the bystander in the original scenario. But when there is no bystander, ethical considerations break down. The two parties can either cooperate, or don't. If it comes to something like access to safe drinking water, no ethical consideration matters when survival is at stake.
And, funny thing about monopolies, some form of cooperation is still in the monopoly holder's interest. Surely the only baker in a thousand miles should realize that they can make more money for themselves if they don't exclude 'de gayz' from their shop. If the bastard is stubborn and doesn't value extra profit, what's then stopping another person from getting into the cake business, even if only a much smaller scale? If the Bigot Baker then wishes to remain the sole provider of pastries, they're have to either buy out their competition (and thus enter a battle of attrition they're destined to lose, once people realize they can make money by setting up their own bakeries just to get bought out) or resort to force (typically by appealing to state power). In which case you have a new little tyranny that needs cutting down.
The right to discriminate is still there. But as was correctly argued by others, that doesn't mean protection from consequences.
What do you suggest they do then? They aren't a military, and violence begets violence, in my opinion.
I was mostly commenting on the claim that the internet 'does the same things' as fighting. I'd suggest by examining the adage "Si vis pacem, para bellum." and Thomas Jefferson's quote "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Freedom and rights are not inherent to human existence. They're extended to others with the expectation of reciprocation, and they're secured ultimately through a promise of violence towards those who do not respect those rights. This is the fundamental nature of the rule of law.
And until you have that rule of law in place, backed by real strength, it doesn't matter how many minds you change through internet activism.
As for what I suggest they do. I already suggested that economic development is needed before social liberalization. So if the US and her allies could stop fucking things up in the middle east by waging wars, undermining states, brokering deals with tyrants, and outright arming those groups who'll then go on to wage war, suppress freedom, and endlessly suffocate the growth of the region, that'd be a good start. That would require shutting down the glaziers who're the only ones profiting from all the window breaking going on there, so that actual social and fiscal capital accumulation can take place. That's what western social justice advocates should be focused on instead of first world problems.
Then it's a matter of local groups doing what they can to build the institutions needed to secure their own liberty, and to fight off attempts to smother them. The internet is a good tool to do the building. But not so much the securing. Words will inevitably need some sort of stick to back them. Or else the swordsman cuts off the scribe's hands and everything will be for naught. Many of history's most revered figures weren't just writers or just warriors, but men who carried a sword in one hand and a pen in the other. Even Ghandi was playing a grand game of Chicken with his civil disobedience movement. He was daring the British to throw the first stone.
As for 'violence begets violence'. It's true. It's ugly. But there's no solution. The predator will always pursue its prey until fought back with horn, tusk and hoof.
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I'm rather reminded of the Ku Klux Klan spokesman who chirped, "We're not anti-black. We're pro-white!"
Complete the quote: "A rose, by any other name..."
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Over at Castiglia's stated location, the UK, it sadly is.
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by that logic all the threats I get for not jumping the 12 year mental-age liberal band wagon is also hate speech. But oh well, it's not like I'm some delicate little flower that wilts over "trigger words" :P
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I'm very sorry that you consider people having the same rights as you 12 year mental-age
Bless your hearth.
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well of the many years of getting into the political game (actually learning about the issues on a personal level and not watch some show on comedy central and crown myself an expert) I yet seen any sign of this cult-like group acting above the mental age of 12. This coming from a guy who lives in a very liberal state, known many liberals and hipsters, and even work with actual kids around that age to compare it to.
Though it might be unfair to treat your kind as 12 year olds mentally. I actually know kids that age that act far more mature and even apply something none of you guys ever do and it's gasp critical thinking. Now I know you are mad and going to play off that you are not mad and give me the same copy/paste bs each one of you been pasting for at least a decade now. Even if you hate my guts and think of all sorts of nasty things about me, I would be fine as long you try thinking on your own and not some "path with least resistance" route of herd like thinking. Now I am not saying to turn on a different news show or some cartoon but just actually read up on the issues and maybe take everything with a grain of salt. It is ok to be wrong on things. We all been wrong on things, but once you start getting the ego like most of you guys do, is when you stop learning. We say "12- year old mentality" because that is the phase when kids/teens start getting their ego on "I know everything" and appear like annoying idiots. Sadly I know guys my age (34) who never grew out of this mentality and their lives went south really fast because of it.
I am not saying this out of anger but actually concern because this doesn't end well for any of you with this hive-like mentality. Please just start questioning things and people instead of just accepting everything on your favorite show as "Fact".
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I'm not wrong, I don't get my political values from a TV show, in fact there's none that caters to them on air, and I don't watch TV but for the odd sports game, I can think critically as it's part of my degree to be able to do so. Step down with the generalizations, also. You don't know me, you don't know which ideologies I support or why and I consider myself to be a pretty independent thinker.
I know when I'm wrong, and I'm not afraid to own up to my mistakes, we all make them. The thing is, I have not said anything wrong.
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I totally agree with your logic,
The first take on this probably was the "You're antisemite" speech.
I hate when these groups think everyone disrespect them, and end up disrespecting others under a magic umbrella of ideology.
The problem is that nowadays, the whole media and even governments support this kind of movements.
Discriminating is not prohibited, actually, if you really know what the word means. People will look at you, and will discriminate you, based on something: your height, your body, your eyes, your uglyness, your clothes, your ass, your sex, your gender, whatever they want. This is natural and expected.
What is wrong is allowing your discriminations to make you hate and attack others.
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Wow.... That... Was really surprising... It's really sad when developers are acting this way. It's shocking every time..
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^^ true! But sometimes one just expect more of a developer. To be more adult, responsible and reasonable.
And we've had our share of angry developers that behaved in one crazy way or the other. But yes, it's definitely sad when anyone is acting that way. That's life though I suppose.
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But sometimes one just expect more of a developer. To be more adult, responsible and reasonable.
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To be honest, I find it very immature to decide not to buy something because you don't like the creator. I don't say that what they did wasn't rude - it is low, but frankly your thread is not far away from that.
PS: Still, I realise that i'm the hypocryte by saying this, but since you already posted it.... we should start spamming their forum with lgbt stuff. :))
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wait isn't it the oppsite? Like for example i don't holiday in countries that don't support basic human rights as i dont want countries (or in this instance the game developers) to recieve funding from me.
i also dont watch michael bay movies for similar reasons:P
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do you buy products from nestle, adidas, puma, nike etc?
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Not from those guys , but i do understand your point.
I try to be ethical as much as i can be, near most clothes producers are slave labourers (or as they call it 'sweat shop idian division') but i won't go out of my way to buy a game from someone who is extremely rude and hateful for no reason when there are loads of other games to choose from or holiday in Afghanistan when i can go some where like america...which i am...soon.
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It's just a kid raised in an unfortunate country who doesn't know any better and wrote some stupid things on the internet thinking he's cool. It's not like he goes in the night and spits on gay people or whatever. He probably never met a gay person in real life. We should mock him, not say that he's work is worth zero.
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(to be fair from the reviews the game is also bad)
I still don't see why i would want to give this guy money , even games i like for example if paradox interactive pushed elderly people out of wheelchairs i'd probably stop supporting their games too.
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Well, I don't plan to buy it either for the same reason first, but that wasn't the point and I wasn't talking about this developer in particular, but about anyone who wants to sell something - book, videogame, painting - and turns out to be a jerk.
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if anyone who write a book , makes a video game or paints a painting turns out to be a jerk then i wouldn't read , play or (look at?:P) those (providing i knew about it before hand)
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We all do regrettable things of which we will be ashamed at some point in life. By avoiding those products you might be missing interesting things, but well, each to his / her own. Cheers! :)
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If you buy stuff from someone who has "outed" themselves as racist or homphobic or whatever you are basically telling them their views are acceptable. Would you go shopping in a store whose owner is an open KKK member?
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You buy a product, not the extension of that person... and, your question is complicated.
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It's not complicated at all. Do you want to financially support someone whose views on race, gender etc. (so, important stuff, not football teams for example) are unacceptable to you? It's a luxury product, not a basic necessity.
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It is;
people are complex and a statement is not enough to judge a person, especially when they come from a different society than yours and all you know about them is something they said on the internet about a thing they did not experience in real life (being from an ex-communist block country means that he most likely never met a gay person in reality) - you are very quick to judge;
being a luxury product means that you cannot buy it from something else, unlike necessity products. If you don't like a huge conglomerate, you can buy from a small local factory. What about people who buy Hitler's painting or books? Are they evil? Or is that alright because Hitler is not alive anymore? Would you buy a something manufactured by a factory that employs ex-convicts (rapists for example)? If you do, does that mean that you support them being rapists?
Buying something from someone does not mean that you are ok with what they believe in or whatever, but that their products are suitable for you.
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Buying something from someone does not mean that you are ok with what they believe in or whatever, but that their products are suitable for you.
Everyone values things differently.
Lets say a product has a value of (10).
For someone, poor conduct would be a -6, dropping that value to (4).
Thus the individual would prefer a product with a value of (6), since while inherently lower value, it has higher personal value to the individual. [and personal value is the ONLY consideration in regards to luxury goods].
To you, clearly conduct is completely ignorable in its effects toward product value. I can't agree with that, but the fact is, it means your valuation is entirely different than that of others.
It doesn't magically make your view the correct one- it just means you and others are looking at different things when making their purchasing decisions.
As noted, the easiest way to make a stand in the modern age is to appeal to the capitalistic mindset, and "fight with your wallet". In a world where similar products are widespread, it's easy to just jump to another product and snub someone who has snubbed you first.
Or rather- why are you viewing companies as these magical places separate from humanity?
If you were trading with an individual, wouldn't you consider the merits of trading with them?
How does them referring to themselves as a company make that element disappear?
Your mindset is deeply confusing to me.
And, with that said, it seems reasonable for you to appreciate that, yes, there are rather different mindsets on the matter. Yours has merit in making the best decisions for your personal welfare- you grab the product that is inherently best for you. Ours is best in affecting a positive change in our environment, and not supporting corrupt practices and mindsets.
I'd take considerate moral conduct over mild, passing self-satisfaction any day- and so long as enough people feel that way, you can't say that reviews that appeal to our mindset don't have value. :/
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Actually, as I recall, product typically refers to the entirety of the sale of the merchandise in question.
For example, if a good comes with a free bonus at StoreA, then it would be considered a superior product to what StoreB is selling.
Short version, typically people associate developer/publisher conduct as being part of the product itself [though of course not directly as part of the good or merchandise or service being offered].
Of course, it's not a question of word use, regardless- it's one of consumer expectation.
And so long as consumers view such considerations as having value in relation to making purchasing decisions, such considerations remain valid for presentation in forums where value is being discussed.
That's it, that's the only consideration of note that matters to this topic.
The rest of this thread just seems to be an excuse to engage in antagonism, self-centered mindsets, intolerance, and bigotry. -.-
In any case, I ( and most individuals I know ) at least consider developer/publisher conduct when making purchasing decisions. Not even entirely out of concern over their lack of morals, but because it usually reflects on their business practices [ie, if they're antagonistic toward minorities, they often tend to be antagonistic toward criticism/bug reports/etc] . If a developer lies about something unrelated, perhaps they'll lie about following up on their game-related promises.
Meanwhile, this particular publisher, who felt the need to engage the OP just to spew hate speech, when they could have easily just unfriended and left it at that- they've shown a complete lack of professionalism, propriety, and consideration toward their consumers and product. That bodes very poorly for them sticking with and reasonably polishing the game, and not causing more grief for consumers in the future.
So yeah, it's entirely relevant to making purchasing decisions, no matter how you look at it.
And at heart, reviews have nothing to do with the game itself, they have to do with helping people make an informed purchasing decision. Hence why reviews commenting on a game not working with a specific graphics card, or on Macs [assuming a Mac compatibility is listed], or so forth are all valid reviews. They may not inform the majority, but they're invaluable to people with the same considerations as the reviewers.
It's totally dickish for someone to assume their personal purchasing considerations are the only ones that matter. -.-
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To be honest, I find it very immature to decide not to buy something because you don't like the creator.
How's that? It's as valid a reason as any.
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No it's not in my opinion (not to mention that the game seems to be shit, but that's another point) but if someone is a bigot, or an idiot, or whatever, I won't support their products.
I don't know if it's the best analogy, but would you buy X company shoes if they were slavering children on the Antartica? I wouldn't, I like to think.
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Freddy Mercury was a very talented person who lost a lot because his behaviour was considered unacceptable back in the day. It is irrelevant who the person is, the important thing is that someone's work is not evaluated correctly because of his views and that sucks. Again, I am not talking about this developer (I don't like the game either), but about "jerk" content creators.
about the last part: I find it hard to believe that you don't buy anything from Puma, Adidas, Nike, Nestle and pretty much any big conglomerate.
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But people don't exist on a vacuum. Take, I don't know any of those NFL players who beat their wifes, should they be judged solely on their play? I don't think so. Or Terry who shagged his teammate's wife, he's a cunt, and people should treat them like that.
I know, I know. It's why I said it was a bad analogy. I try to avoid certain brands as much as I can, tho.
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Freddy Mercury also never attacked anyone or behaved in a manner that reflected poorly on him, personal viewpoints aside. Your comparison is nonsensical.
In fact, your entire argument is nonsensical, as it uses a false comparison of "Well, someone positive was hurt by boycotting, so boycotting itself is a terrible thing".
No, you're right, we should clearly just support any dick that comes along.
If someone punches us in the face, we shouldn't tell anyone or do anything about it.
If a company punches us in the face, ditto- it's not like companies affect our lives in notable ways or anything, so why bother?
../sarcasm, just in case that's necessary to add.
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Society is in perpetuum changes. What sometimes in the past seemed terrible, today might be normal. What today is normal, sometimes in the past, or sometimes in the future might be considered terrible. 30 years ago society was very different from today's society and in that society Freddy did things that reflected poorly on him (for those times!). I used him because I was listening to Queen and it popped in my head when I was looking for someone whose work was misjudged because of his persona. I am not comparing Freedy Mercury to this guy, I past talking about this guy in the first reply, I'm talking about the situations in which someone's work is evaluated by his actions - and it is wrong.
Also, you can't know that Mercury didn't insult people or didn't have strange / wrong considered viewpoints and even if he did, those should not be the deciding factor of how many records did he sell or how many awards he (should have) got(ten).
Also it seems that most of the people here are eager to judge and make horrible wishes based on that judgement.
... should I try to explain again how from my point of view buying a product is not about supporting something, but well, buying something you need / want? Should I explain how equality is about everyone having the same chances, no matter the race, sex, colour, ethnicity or whatever stupid opinions they have unless they do something illegal? ... and when they do that illegal thing, they should not be lynched by the mob, but judged by competent people trained for this. You have a different view? Excellent! Gladly, we live in a world in which it is ok to have different opinions and we don't have to kill each other - I disagree with you, but we can still enjoy a glass of wine or a play some boardgame together.
PS: If you bring up this specific developer again and don't talk about a generic person, I will ignore you.
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PPS: you seem like an intelligent person, but due to the fact that we live in very different societies and that I have poor skills in the language we are using for conversation, I might not always understand you entirely and I might misexpress myself, so, in case you sense any aggressive attitude from my part, I apologise, but that does not represent me.
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you're actually right. there is so much shit going on in the world, based from discrimination, etc. that you really shouldn't buy or consume anything anymore. as usual: something bad happens - people get upset - it sinks into oblivion (and soon it happens again)
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Hi everyone, I always participate in sweepstakes of games that the own developers offers, as many of you.
This week the publishing Dream Games distributes keys to the game Operation Caucasus pre-released on May 23 this year.
The scheme was to go to their facebook page and ask for a key, that's what I did ...
The answer was negative, because I use the colors of the rainbow on my profile picture and they said they did not support LGBT and "kindly" asked me to go f*ck myself. Then they blocked me, preventing me from posting the print on their facebook page.
Follows the print: http://imgur.com/tru0YgE
Anyone who wants to help, can mark as a useful analysis to stay on top.
Link the publishing page on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?developer=Dream%20Games
Link of the game on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/app/442180
I had already warned that in the post on the given keys https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/JMwgGKR but with a own topic, the message reaches more people
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