Did all the paintings or sculptures you've ever seen carried a message?
Also; "EDIT; The definition of "Art" I used was for art and craft, and not the "Art" as artistic quality."
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Most of them, yes. What I mean is there have to be criteria to differentiate games that are art and games that are not. Just like a doodle on a piece of paper isn't necessarily art. It really depends on the quality and the audience as well :).
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For that you can use "art" as a quality, but in this thread I used "art" as a definition.
"I say that even games like COD is art, maybe it isn't artist, original or anything special but just pile of generic stuff. But I'm not here telling what is art in terms of quality, but simply what can be define/d as art"
I won't argue that some games are art in quality while other games like COD are simply a craft but without the "art" quality.
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This is a common question among the normal art world.
Art for arts sake.
or conceptual art.
Over the years I have personally come to the realization that there is no art for arts sake because the simple act of creation requires some motive with inherent meaning beyond the literal.
EDIT
On topic, It definately is art. to add on to the things that you have already said, there have been many famous contemporary artists who work with collections of things that are pretty mundane but when placed together harmoniously by their hand, they become part of a greater whole and is something that people who like to label things as "art" or "not art" value. I would argue that any videogame is a unique vision brought together as a collection of images, text, and a plethora of other things.
They are even, as many things, a epitome of human ingenuity, creativity, collaboration, and progress.
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Of course they are, just like Lolcats and Memes are.
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Do you think generic painting and sculpture isn't art?
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Part of the confusion some people are having is because they don't understand what art actually is. This is neither surprising nor unusual. Your average person would have difficulty explaining what art is. So, let's start by doing just that.
Art is a manifestation of self-expression--a transmittal of ideas and/or human experiences (such as emotional states)--so anything which humans create may be a form of art. It only requires an artistic intention and an execution which succeeds sufficiently well in transmitting the artist's message. If something were to be created simply for functionality, however, then it would not be defined as art. A small child's painting may not be pretty, but it is an expression and therefore art. My driver's license, while photo-realistic, is not.
When talking about games as art, it's a good idea to specify which games we are talking about. There are games, and then there are computer or video games. Games, in general, may have artistic qualities to them, but a majority are simply functional. Even if the gameboard and pieces are fashioned in an artistic manner, the game of Checkers is not considered art. The Setllers of Catan, on the other hand, may be considered art.
Video and computer games also sometimes fall into the category of art. The vast majority of them have various artistic qualities: graphics, sound, music, etc. That, by itself, however, does not qualify the game as art. To be considered art, the game must convey a message or concept. "To the Moon" does this. "Pong" does not. When considering whether or not to qualify a video or computer game as art, ask yourself what the creator is trying to convey. If the answer is "nothing," the game is not art.
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You seem to know what you talking about. And while I agree with you completely. "art" is a word, and words can be interpreted differently based on individuals. So in this thread I took the liberty to use the word "art" for its mainstream interpretation, which is confused with craft.
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Some are "art" as aspect of quality, I was talking about "art" as aspect of definition.
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I had that talk with my philosophy's teacher, she tried a lot brain washing in many subjects but she agreed with me that games are arts, but just agreed with the nowadays games, not old school games(DOS, NES, etc.), she said there are not "beautiful enough", which I disagree with her. We must face how hard was to create a game like that in that time, no technology enough to create what we have today.
I agree that games are art, but most of the people think that games are thing with no value, it will take more time to people accept games as a art
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Well, most of games are without value, most of them are simply products to sell, but it doesn't lower it from the art definition of "art and craft" because many other things like sculptures and paintings are made to sell and are without actual "artistic" value and are still called art. If you go deeper into the real definition of art and craft, they are works of craft, and not the works of art, but nowadays for people craft and art are both just "art".
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I just love those occasional "yes"s, people post arguments and such and them after every few posts someone comes with just a "yes". XD
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It's naive to say that bad games aren't art. Art is subjected to our own personal opinions and as such, definition of good and bad varies from one person to another. Same goes for every type of art - from music to painting and movies - we all subject it through our own "filters" and decide if we like it or not. Regardless of whether we like it or not, Call Of Duty is, just like every other game - art!
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An interested thing I saw in this thread is that too many people had too many different interpretations of the meaning "art". What you described is simple preference, art isn't about how much a person likes it or not, a person can say "this is art" in order to show his favorable opinion about it, but it doesn't make it art. The only person here who actually got the right definition of art is this guy.
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Every word has it's on strict definition that isn't based on individual opinion and isn't "free-roam", of course a person can interpret whatever there is in his own way, but what you try to describe isn't wrong, "Art" is simply not exactly the right word for. Even the word "art" I used in this post isn't actually "art" but just a definition people associated with the word "art". When in actuality painting, sculpture games, movies are all just craft and aren't art, art is just an attribute and a motive for craft.
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I don't see why games need to be art. I mean as long as the game is fun to play I don't really see why they need to try to be art. There are to many bad games hiding behind "Look it's artsy!". Not saying games can't be art but I don't think they need to strive to be art.
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You talk about "art" quality, I talked about "art" definition which isn't something that special, it doesn't mean the games i better if there's a label "art" on it. It's just something I wanted to point out.
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Games aren't a tool, games are the resulting product of the collaboration of the different aspects that makes games.
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Well that escalated quickly, you said "Games are just tools to make art" you probably tried to explain something different than what I understood, but it still sounded wrong to me. Sorry if I offended you in any way.
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It could be yes or no. It's like movies, but in other perspective. There are some movies that are called masterpieces, other are just a bunch of thrash. In the gaming world is the same thing. There are games that can be called as art, others are just a commercial product made to make profit.
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"I'd say that even games like COD are art. Maybe it isn't artist, original or anything special, but just pile of generic stuff. But I'm not here to tell what is art in terms of quality, but simply what can be defined as art. COD is like the equivalent to majority of DA submissions, generics and sometimes shitty, but still technically counts as art."
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The Nostalgia Critic put out a video with this topic a few weeks ago, worth checking out. Kinda sums up my thoughts too on the topic.
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Depends if the publisher/dev in it for the money, then it's economics and entertainment.. like movies, which mostly aren't art, more entertainment.. as far as Hollywood.
Then for movies as well as games, there are art works. Citizen Kane for movies.. games.. nothing that close yet, but you have Deus Ex, or Machinarium, or Cart Life. Or you have games that are educational, so they are more study tools.
Then you have 'games' which are simulations, like war simulations or flight.
Then you have 'games' which are educational because they are used by universities to get students to work more on assignments together.. they work better in game apparently. There are a bunch of mods for games, Sims and Everquest I think it was, for students to 'study' in game..
Then there are art games like Escape From Woomera that are social commentary and the like, or that WACO multiplayer shooter game, or that 9/11 Survivor Unreal2k3 mod.
Then there are teaching aids like Rocksmith, that are games with guitar input device..
Then there are dancing games that are rhythm and dancing based..
So yes there are art games as well as there being cash cow games and everything in between, just like music, movies, architecture, sculpture, graphic novels etc etc.
'Art' is as debatable as 'pornography', what is it? Where is the line?
As for the 'best' art, in my opinion, it almost always is founded in a balance of three key components:
Meaning/message
Entertainment value/accesibility
Technical proficiency/complexity
Most shooters ARE NOT art, they are actually drone warfare simulators/training modules for the military industrial complex.
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The "art" you talking about is different than the "art" I was talking about. If you would read carefully I talked about art and craft "art" in regardless of actual artistic qualities, just like there are sculptures and paintings without actual artistic qualities and are just craft that were purely made to sell.
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Some games can venture into the world of "art", but if they go too far towards art, the tend to lose any gameplay. Basically, I am saying, if it is lacking gameplay, such as all you are doing is wandering around and looking, it is not a game. Of course, the reverse is true, games such as Bulletstorm, and the Unreal Tournament series, seem not to be much about anything other than killing, and lacking of artisticness (if you count that as a word). When everything lines up just right, it ends up being a hit I think, Portal 1 & 2, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and Assassin's Creed. These are only examples of course.
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You talk about very strict and specific definition of art, art as in something beautiful and meaningful to immerse yourself and enjoy, I was talking about broader definition of art, even a piece of programming code is technically art.
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I notice 2 things from your replies so far, and they all seem to suggest that your definition of "art" is anything man-made. Second, all you seem to be interested in is YOUR definition of art. What I was speaking of is not "something beautiful and meaningful to immerse yourself and enjoy," more like something that feels like time was put into, less about crass jokes and action sequences. Sure maybe there is a level into it's programming that could be artistic, but a lot of code is copy-and-pasted from game to game, by using the same engine. Games that are artistic to me bring feelings up, make me think, and don't make me feel constricted as to what I am doing at any moment, even when there is only one solution to something. Sure maybe COD can be considered art, but I've never played it. As far as I know, art is something that people look at and make their own opinions on, not something to criticize everyone else's opinion of art.
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I don't argue on what you said, I simply mentioned that I talked about something completely different in OP. You talked about "art" qualities like "feeling" that is crafted with, while I talked about the "art" as in just simple craft. Like people create paintings and sculptures and there's no artistic qualities and is simple craft and yet people still classify it as art.
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Not only is it an art, but it's the ultimate form of art. I'm not speaking of any games specifically, but generally games are the combination of number of art forms; visual, musical, story, writing, and even game mechanics like AI, gameplay and such are as well a form of art in the broader definition. And to top it all it's all interactive which is almost in any sense better than static. But before you go on and saying that only specific games can be considered art, I'd say that even games like COD are art. Maybe it isn't artist, original or anything special, but just pile of generic stuff. But I'm not here to tell what is art in terms of quality, but simply what can be defined as art. COD is like the equivalent to majority of DA submissions, generics and sometimes shitty, but still technically counts as art.
I am well aware that to many of you this might seem just an obvious thing, but there are still many, even among non-casual gamers, that still think that video games aren't art.
EDIT; The definition of "Art" I used was for art and craft, and not the "Art" as artistic quality.
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