Underwhelming or not?
Unless the last 3 REALLY turn it up..... that one episode I think RUINED the show for me.
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so, I got some questions, the Night King is dead for all times or can he actually resurrect?
GoT one blacklist for asking this question, GoT the irony :(?
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he ded (maybe, the tin foil hat theories about bran might be true)
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so far, I really liked the first minute of the fights (when all the dead are moving against the survivors like in World War Z movie), but somehow they only did that on that part.
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All you complaining about darkness why you don't have an IMAX screen at home?
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“I Know It Wasn’t Too Dark Because I Shot It”
Well, great, but OTOH i know it was dark because i saw it. And guess what, the consumer, the viewer is the one that matters in this argument. I don't care if you think it was good or not, it was dark and blurry, everything else is irrelevant.
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Kinda disappointed with Ep 3. Night King was hyped and he died like shit.
The whole choreography was great, just now the specific Night King's battle.
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Even on day one I knew there was no way in hell that we'd ever get the books finished first---especially since GURM straight up needs the crappy show ending to come out first and relieve the pressure he faces with any wrap up---but goddamn. I thought we'd at least have Winds of Winter by now.
Well actually I thought GURMS would be dead by now already, but IF he was still kicking this late I thought we'd have winds of winter by now. Fucker.
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Praise R'hllor for the night is dark and full of terrors !
I'm disappointed, let's pretend for a second the books never existed, let's ignore all the plotholes, plotarmors and nosense stuff... 7 seasons and it finishes with Arya in Assassin's Creed mode ! Wow, just... wow :|
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It was good, but it could have been a lot better. I don't understand why did the Night King have all those commanders that didn't even fight. And everyone agrees that the dothraki charge was unnaceptably stupid, but the worst thing of the episode was how poorly prepared they were.
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Spoilers for e4 out... (reddit) I'm kind of not caring anymore just wanna see it through, but might be upsetting for some people. Or not.
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More here: https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bl7577/s0804_post_episode_discussion/emmk9to/
I believe this is indeed what we are gonna get... u__u'
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Night King can take the bodies of his lieutenants, that's why they stay back and stay seperated.
One of the lieutenants will turn into the night king.
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The quality of the writing and directing has dropped significantly in the last couple of seasons, imho. GoT is now almost as every other average fantasy/-themed TV show, script-wise. Apart from the huge amounts of cash they've got for fancy CGI and breathtaking shots, the plot has too many deus-ex-machina moments, oh-you-thought-this-character-was-about-to-die-but-in-the-next-second-something-will-save-them or those cheap writing tricks where they make you think one thing is happening and in the last second you find out it's actually the opposite (e.g. the death of Littlefinger). This is all the total opposite of the show's initial premise - a no-nonsense "realism" where things, especially deaths happen like in real life - not very poetically and without much mercy from fate. The crucial scene with Arya in the last episode is totally random. There is no consistency with the build-up of the entire episode, it was just a cheap trick in the last moment which was btw predictable because the way they made everything look as if the humans were losing, so of course it was obvious there was going to be a somebody-ex-machina to save the day, so the only consistency was the low quality of the writing.
Wow, this was quite a rant.
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Well, the big battle episode was a big failure in almost every way.
-Blurry, dark scenes everywhere, you can't see anything (stopped in one frame, where was nothing but a blurry dark shape before a blurry dark nothing)
-The big bad was really bad at leadership. Could have won the battle in the 10 first minutes, but no, we need to drag it out for 90 and fail at the end.
-The enemy can resurrect the dead->lets hide the weak in a crypt with lots of dead bodies.
-But luckily the big bad only ressurrected the fallen at the and, instead of the start, and then regularly during the battle, shortening it and getting massive reinforcement from the crypt.
-The zombies go from battle hungry zombies to regular ones in the library, and only in the library.
-Lets rely on only the dragons for lighting the trench, since spending a tiny amount of whaterever they used for a simply direct fireway from the gate or even inside the fort would be non stupid.
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At this point, I'm just ready for it to be over. This season has been a slog.
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Show is starting to feel like TWD all over again. At this point I'm waiting for Negan to show up and bash Tormund's head in, causing Jon to punch Negan in the face, resulting in Arya getting clubbed after all those "omg she's dead" moments. The amount of inconsistencies, illogical events, plot armor and respawns is getting out of hand.
However we do have to at least give the actors and technical teams some props. Despite how awful the writing is, at least the acting is good, the music, cinematography, etc etc. But yah, looking forward to it just being over.
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really havent enjoyed the last 2 seasons. the quality of writing has notably plummeted and at this point its hard to tell if its an inferior team trying its best and failing, or an indifferent team that knows they can write whatever they want because the show is big and popular enough that it'll be successful no matter what... or maybe they just want things over and done with so they can move on to other projects.
nothing has really turned out how i wanted it to (though thats more an issue with me than the show) aside from the dragon bitch going nutso.. that was at least consistent to her character, and quite frankly the only interesting thing ive seen in the last 2 seasons.
unsatisfying, mostly inconsistent in terms of its characters, lazy plot-hole ridden events and just.. sigh.. its turned into a mess.
I think i know how the final ep will play out.. i hope im wrong, but then also worried that if i am wrong it'll probably be something much much worse.
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its hard to tell if its an inferior team trying its best and failing, or an indifferent team that knows they can write whatever they want because the show is big and popular enough that it'll be successful no matter what... or maybe they just want things over and done with so they can move on to other projects.
It's all of these. But also, D&D are apparently very dictatorial about the story and only have two other writers on hand-- in other words, there is no "writer's room." It's painfully evident in the comical "after the show" bits, where D&D try to explain at the audience (not to the audience) why the writing is good. They've been mentally checked out for years. Cogman is honestly the only one who seems to care about the characters, his episode 2 of this season is the only standout.
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Episode 5 - Character arcs built over the last 7 seasons randomly destroyed in support of weak plot points? Didn't expect much considering previous episodes, but I did not see that coming. Anyway, here's a fun recap for you all :)
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and this.....
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I'm really not sure if I should watch the last episode, I'm curious if the can top this shitshow.
I'm not happy with the plot points. But I could accept it.
But the plot development is a joke, and personalities, characters are being destroyed on the way.
Events should lead up to eachother, not just plot point being followed by plot point, with often just a cut between them. Characters don't talk to eachother, there is no discussion, whatever is shown from the environment is twisted ( desert of King's Landing lol) and... shit like r/Freefolk has a lot better presented dialogues. Plot points. Fuck, some of them re-cut E 4 and 5 and made a valid, good point how two "umm, they just forgot about X" plot points can be mixed into one that validates both.
It's just sad. Great environment and effects, the actors are as we liked them, but characters are butchered, backstories warped, story arcs left open, it's like a drama club's rushed script.
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....kind of forgot about good writing....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ikUYFK84OQ
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I want to get this in before the end since I've been thinking about it.. What if it's not Jon who kills Dany but Arya in disguise as Jon. While Jon is alive now he was dead at one point which means Arya might be able to use his face. Anyways about an hour left.. guess we'll soon know what happens.
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Spoilers from Reddit turned out to be true. It wasn't bittersweet at all, just disappointing. At least I'll have fond memories of the soundtrack.
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I have to say that was probably the worst ending to a show I have ever seen, season and episode wise.
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the worst episode of the series, Why was it important to know the real name and lineage of Jon? why did Arya train her whole life and then not fulfill her mission? why varys wrote so many letters to the lords of westero (thing that caused his death), why dany becomes the villain of the series in a single chapter? why bran since season 3 constantly refused to be the lord of winterfell because he was the 3-eyed crow, but Tyrion asks if he wants to be king and simply says "why do you think I'm here?" WTF!!! and so we can get a lot of inconsistencies...
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Why was it important to know the real name and lineage of Jon?
Because that's who he was? Point is that not all details shown lead to them being put front and center, like in some low-grade Hollywood action flick, where the only aspect of a character is "I can masturbate for 25 minutes straight" and then 2 minutes later the character ends up in a masturbation competition where the longest jacking wins.
There are plenty of things that were introduced, but never actually used because that's not how humans work. I know a friend who can belch the alphabet. That doesn't mean he'll be using his skills in the most important point in his life because of that.
why did Arya train her whole life and then not fulfill her mission?
Sorry, did the Night King come back to life? Did she suddenly forget all of her training and not use it in literally every single battle she's been involved in? Did she not lose her fear and get a need for exploration?
why varys wrote so many letters to the lords of westero (thing that caused his death)
Because he wanted to kill Dany. He failed. Not all plot points are successes. See the entirety of Season 3 for an example.
why dany becomes the villain of the series in a single chapter?
Because it was an abridged series. She was insane since the Liberation of Slaver's Bay. Or did you forget all the atrocities she committed and all the delusions she always had? Mind you, it was still a bit too sudden, but it was inevitable.
why bran since season 3 constantly refused to be the lord of winterfell because he was the 3-eyed crow, but Tyrion asks if he wants to be king and simply says "why do you think I'm here?"
Dude knows what would happen. If he became the Lord of Winterfell, things would be changed and he couldn't rule on the throne. He's a psychic who's a pragmatist. This makes a lot of sense. Actions have consequences and Bran is interested in serving the realm. Petty ruling won't serve his end goal, which is peace.
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Because D&D cant write and are lost without books.
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To be fair, they did what GRRM wanted. He told them the ending. This is how it was supposed to end. Just that they had to reverse engineer how they'd actually get to that point. Mind you, B&W are not made for this and Benioff especially is a cocky bastard when watching the BTS featurerette.
But to pretend that all they did was wrong is pretty ignorant in my eyes. What did you expect? That Jon suddenly goes against all the themes of the show and becomes king? Or that Dany suddenly stops being Dragon Hitler?
The writing was on the wall since Season 3 for most characters.
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It's... such a mixed thing. GRRM told some guidelines to the guys. But they killed off Stannis, kept Theon alive, killed off Barristan, twisted Tyrion's journey towards Danny, forgot about Quentyn Martell who actually looked into a Targaryen-Martell union to reclaim the Iron Throne for Viserys (later Daenerys).
They seriously derailed the series compared to the books, so it would be more correct to say that GRRM wrote the show's closure, we really can't be sure it that is the "real ending" (of the books.)
And my 2 cents to the topic - I wouldn't mind that much the ending, if they wouldn't rush and fuck up S8. It's like they made a movie from an IMDB synopsis, that was just a paragraph or two for each episode. Characters not discussing just stating things, everyone acting for themselves - because there was no time for actually building the story in an organic way, and it's such a pity.
Mind you, it was still a bit too sudden, but it was inevitable.
Basically the ending of the series and the closure. Would have worth an extra season to expand this one, and wrap up properly.
( Not oneshotting the NIght King, not pulling out armies of Danny's ass, no Unsulied dividing into a new army, Cersei having a role, characters having an episode to episode continuity, not dying under a pile of rocks that miraculously fell only on top of them, etc etc)
I was so hyped at the start of this season, loved the first two episode, third one was... abrupt and ended fast, but went downhill soo much afterwards. I'm just utterly disappointed by the pacing and lack of logic throughout this season :(
but hey, at least stuff looked great! And got some great music. And looots of memes :D
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I agree with most of this. The show was obviously rushed. Grand narratives don't benefit from abridged seasons and this is just a very good case that proves the rule.
The Night King was done a huge disservice and I expressed my massive disappointment at that episode. I would've expected the narrative to take the turn towards "mortal qualms are silly, there's bigger fish out there". In all honesty, I still feel like that was the original idea, to do that for a while and then go back to a broken realm. But instead they got rid of that entire subnarrative and instead rushed through to the absolute end.
The thing is that I'm still fine with how the grand narrative ended. Just that I'm not happy with the way they brought us there. Most results were predictable and made sense. Of course Bran will lead. Of course Arya will be a lone wolf. Of course Dany will be Hitler and of course Jon gets a bittersweet end. What annoyed me was that the last two seasons felt very much like it jolted us quickly ahead whenever they spotted that they were running out of time. S08 shouldn't have been this short.
But as to the way Cersei and Jamie died... yeah, it makes sense imo. Rubble was everywhere, if you watch the episode. People died in rubble and so I'm not surprised that the same happened to her and Jamie. People like to say that Jamie was a good guy now and they threw his character's arc away, but that's not how humans work. Being a ruthless, incestuous murderer isn't a consequence free existence. He's a bad guy. He fought against that side, but when push came to shove, he finally crumbled and went back to the woman he truly loved.
Cersei also didn't need to die painfully. It made sense. She was in emotional turmoil for months and she finally snapped during the battle. Tyrants don't die spectacularly. Evil whimpers and shrivels away. It goes with GRRM's themes perfectly.
A lot of people have this idea in their head what their favourite characters are like. And like with anyone we care for, we tend to not think of the flaws. That's why shows usually don't make their protagonists very flawed, since it pleases the audience. Jamie's destiny was to be the tortured soul, Cersei's was to be a blip in the history books, Tyrion's was to become more humble and give in to the world and take a more passive role in the world. This could be said about many others too.
At least that's what I'd say. Just sucks that the plot itself for this season wasn't very well written and continuity errors were more than plentiful on a moment-to-moment level.
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Tyrants don't die spectacularly. Evil whimpers and shrivels away. It goes with GRRM's themes perfectly.
True, I got a bit too invested in my fanfic of Jamie killing Cersei, breaking the siege and then something happens. Book-Jamie maybe would have done it, I don't know.
( aaaaaaaaaa, she talked even less in the season than fuckign Jon " Ai don wanit" Snow xD the fuck D&D were on when wrote the script)
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Book-Jamie maybe would have done it, I don't know.
I think it depends on how deep he goes with his character. If he went deep, then this ending for him would make sense. Evil people don't just become good. They can try, but if there are things holding them back then odds are they'll break at some point. The woman he loved, his family and his child were about to be brutally killed. It makes sense he cared about it enough to try and save her. The death... is realistic. The portrayal, less so. People don't come out of crumbling buildings very often.
If he didn't go as deep, odds are he'd mourn her, be angry at Dany for killing her, but also still never go and actually die there. He'd be a bad man, turned good, living as a man with regrets.
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sorry, I'm not going to discuss something with someone who has no idea what he's talking about... ignorant is not a person who does not know something, because we can not know about everything, ignorant is a person who talks about what he does not know...
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I think the real ignorance is thinking there are objective answers to subjective questions. You're worse than Benioff with the pretentiousness levels right now. A quote here, a quote there. No real thought put into anything. Easier to throw a quip than to (god forbid) just discuss a subjective topic.
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I don't think the show can end satisfyingly. The viewer's not smart enough for that. And I'm not trying to mock the viewer, since I personally am guilty of the same things, but this isn't a show that can have a good conclusion.
Spoilers for the last episode ahead, obviously:
This is what GRRM wanted. That's what his endplan was. Obviously this was rushed so much for no good reason. They couldn't handle their finances, so the show suffered because the B&W can't get their shit together.
But as to the over-arching narrative, I mean, it was pretty reasonable, I'd say. They had to rush it, so Dany going from "pretty insane" (don't be willfully ignorant and claim she was even close to being sane since The Liberation of Slaver's Bay) to being completely insane in like 2-3 episodes. The fact is that her breaking point was exposed for 3 seasons now and anything could've broken it. Seeing her archnemesis kill her closest friend is probably going to make you a bit unhappy, to say the least. Her fate was sealed.
Jon being the king would've gone against what GRRM has written and all of his themes in the story. Being purely good, like Jon, doesn't net you a victory. That's not how his world works and it's been shown throughout all the seasons.
Drogon didn't kill Jon because he's family. It was built up since S08E01 with the boring Disney-esque dragon flying scene up until literally seconds before the scene started.
Bran's rise into royalty makes sense with the narrative and the themes. Bran, in the world, literally sees the future, avoids petty birthright squabbles, which was the reason anything even happened in the whole show and he's impartial thanks to his role.
As to the themes, it meshes very well too. Prioritizing pragmatism while punishing selfishness and total selflessness. That's how the story was molded from the beginning.
Overall the last episode was stretched out too much with pointless scenes that lasted for minutes too long. The 1h20min length could've been cut down to 1h10min easily.
There was also a lot of fanservice and it's expected with B&W, who are basically moviemakers who like happy stories.
The reason why I think the viewer's not smart enough (which includes me) is that we want happy endings. GRRM will not write a happy ending because that's not how his world works. There were people angry that the Red Wedding happened too. They were also angry that Cersei got a "quick death" (no matter that she squirmed for days, panicked and then struggled throughout the episode). They also were unhappy that Geoffrey died too fast. The average viewer is a vengeful one, especially if an antagonist is well acted. Lena Headey is still harassed by fans of the show, who can't tell the difference between the show and reality.
They want the most despicable people to be punished in the most painful manner possible. That's not the world that's been built.
They want the good guy to be the king or queen and everything to be perfect and happy forever. That's not the world that's been built.
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Tbh even if the way they wrapped up the plots was shit... Dany wasn't a "good character", none was.
She just had utopian ideas, an utopia cannot be achieved and while trying you basically have to destroy opposition to this ideal thus the genocide. Examples in real history are countless, revolutions are a bloody mess where you have no guarantee to gain actual progress.
But in the show, they just rushed the thing to make dany go bersek because "muh nobody luv me, gotta inspire fear right now then" ^^'
Missed opportunity for a true "well meaning" machiavellian dany
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True enough.
She was a maniac after The Liberation of Slaver's Bay. She literally crucified hundreds, massacred thousands and that was just a day in her life. She killed anyone who didn't support her and that wasn't new at all. She got cocky and it's an obvious arc imo. She was held back and frightened, then she is "born again" and she starts off confidently and quickly falls into her ideals where she is always right and those who disagree should be basically just slaughtered or sent away if they're someone close.
This wasn't a perfect story by any means and the decision to make an abridged story just wasn't a good idea.
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In a sense it's expected from someone powerful to act accordingly, by being a little tyrannical. I don't see it pejoratively. Might is right and more than ever in the GOT universe.
But that's me advocating for Hobbes ideas... (basically you can't have a basic society without rulers and even if the rulers are total dicks the benefit of society is bigger than no society at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i4jb5XBX5s)
Cersei was way better. She placated opposition ruthlessly but never posed as a revolutionary who will "never hurt the innocent, pinkyswear".
Dany seeded around her the expectations that she will be "a savior" when everything she need to do to "save" people is litteraly stomping on them. Those are just nonsense ideas, you can't bring peace without war, the most honest thing she did was to crucify people and burning alive opponents. That's a display of power that can get shit done. Not pretending you are here to save.
Ok i'm fucking high i need to stop typing ^^'
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From what I've seen and thought about, the show has a scale of morals:
Legit Evil (Geoffrey, The Mountain, Cersei, The Sparrow)
Bad people who want to be good (Jamie, Littlefinger)
Pragmatists (Tyrion, Bran, Arya)
Good people who will dabble in bad things, whether it's physically bad things or just have bad qualities (Varys, Sansa)
Moral paragons (The adult Stark men, so Ned, Jon, Robb, also Catelyn Stark, Jorah, etc.)
Dany didn't earn respect in Westeros, so she never got it. Notice how she is with the Unsullied and the Dothraki. They respect her. The issue is that regardless of that, she feels the need to right the wrongs and also be liked. But when things don't go her way, she... well, she massacres those who she thinks oppose her. She's supposed to be a teenager and now young adult. She didn't have her shit figured out and she wasn't ready. She was thrust into a role she reluctantly took.
Others have had the same things done to them and yet they have had a different outcome. Jon remained honorable, despite going through even more than Dany in terms of fantastical, empowering stories. Robb remained kind and true to himself as well. Tyrion got more power than he ever had and he even humbled himself.
Not everyone's fit to rule and I think the last episode lays the theme out pretty blatantly. Rulers aren't born, they're chosen. Robb didn't choose to lead, Tyrion wasn't planning to have a high position either. Jon didn't want to lead and now neither does Bran.
Yet, Geoffrey, Tywin, Cersei, they wanted to rule. Same for The Sparrow and Margery Tyrell. They were terrible people because they thought they deserved something and therefore never really earned it. Mind you, Tywin did earn respect and that's why he's way more pragmatic than any of the others I mentioned.
Speaking of the Lannisters, Tommin didn't crave to rule, yet he took on the mantle. He just couldn't handle it and offed himself. But the kid had pure intentions and it showed.
Dany definitely went the whole 9 yards with the whole messiah complex.
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That scale is a bit manichean and is missing a few degrees. The Sparrow isn't inherently evil, he's a fanatic who believes he's doing the right thing even if it means going through extreme means (pretty much like Daenerys really). Jaime and Baelish don't want to "be good", they want power and recognition. I would also consider that Bran is beyond pragmatism - he's no longer human enough for that.
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Personally, The Sparrow for me was basically a religious higher up who seeks power more than anything, so far as to abandon his original beliefs. He cared more about vanity and power, I'd say. I don't remember them showing his earlier days, so perhaps he did stray from his path, but in the modern timeline, he didn't really care for the religion and only chose to follow it when it suited him, leaving his religious devotion as a facade to what he actually was.
As to Bran and pragmatism, you're right. I used the wrong term here for sure. Basically someone who doesn't care for personal feelings and motivations and instead is completely impartial and will do whatever's the "objectively best route". The switch to that personality was after Hodor's death, where he fucked the boy up since it was the best option. Hodor suffered, but it was for the greater good. Had he not sacrificed himself, the world would be completely screwed since the Night King would've won. Same goes for his planning. He sacrifices Theon and his merry band of sailorboys so that Arya could kill the Night King. The dude sees the future and all outcomes, after all.
He's emotionless and relatively boring to watch, but it makes sense imo. You can't be emotional for a world that needs you to be unemotional. For the greater good and all that.
To me, it definitely is a struggle of good vs evil, but the point being that you can't be this moral paragon, since it just gets you killed. People need to do bad things to do good.
I totally see your point though and to an extent, these things will always stay up to interpretation.
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Oh shit.. that's right. Thank you for reminding me.
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Sorry. I ended up deleting it cause I was mistaken.
I thought that Vicerion burned down that part of the wall that Jon and the Wildings went out of in the final scene and that Castle Black looked undamaged despite what happened when the undead went through.
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Ah, fair enough. Yeah, to be fair I was wondering how the hell they would rebuild that part again, since it'll probably take dozens if not hundreds of years. :D
Would've still been interesting to read your comment though :)
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So... that ending was cool but a lil bit underwhelming, i hoped the NK would survive longer, but i think he might survive after all
Also, a small GA for your time
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