EDIT: Follow this thread for more information: https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/mJ2Xl/urban-war-defense
This game was available in Indie Gala - The Twinkly Twelve Bundle. Mine got revoked too:
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Yeah, my keys probably from IndieGala too, based on date.
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Same, but different date.
A Steam Product code you activated has been removed from your account.
18 Aug, 2017 Urban War Defense
[edit] but it's probably the same bundle still
[edit2] I double-checked and my key was from groupees, heh
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Same here.
It's only been in two bundles and I got mine from Indiegala.
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Yep, same here.
Indiegala - Twinkly Twelve bundle.
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/QkoBq/indiegala-the-twinkly-twelve-bundle
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just removed and also from indie gala twinkly twelve bundle (17-aug-2017)
Payment trouble after more than a year is nor really convinving
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Maybe they didn't get paid by indiegala. Not a reason to f*ck legit paying customers but the only explanation (if we exclude plain bullshit).
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more info here dude
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/mJ2Xl/urban-war-defense
I keep the thread moderated, itad info, support links to both resellers, steam discussion ;) pls add em up to you thread too mate
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I guess next developers will start revoking Humble Bundle keys. 😁
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Well giveaway keys for that Fractured Lands did get revoked. And last nights big price glitch might get revoked too.
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What big price glitch? Must have slept through it. :(
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I still own Fractured Land from Humble Bundle. You sure yours wasn't from one of those shady websites?
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well, they said they would get revoked, I was relying on that. (Mine's not from HB, as I missed the deal, and naturally didn't get revoked).
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Did you get it from the last Humble Bundle promo a couple of days ago?
Those keys are all revoked by now including mine that was activated by me right away. ;)
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Oh, nope. I activated it on
1 Aug, 2018 Fractured Lands
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Mad dude dev replies pls mark that into .............
just follow my therad
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/mJ2Xl/urban-war-defense#VvFGNy9
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Since devs should give out their games for free and never get paid?
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Ahem, over one year later? I'm pretty sure Indiegala pays them not that long after the bundle is done.
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From Indiegala, what does Groupees has to do with non payments then? And Groupees bundle was in 2014.
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Nothing, unless the groupees ones were part of the IG batch, leftovers or something.
I'm not defending the guy, just pointing you towards the statement, so you are nearer to knowing the facts.
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I don't care what the reply is, you are a damned fool if you believe everything you read.
Yeah, Groupees and Indiegala are both thieves. What nonsense.
Grab yourself a clue.
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As far as we know, they or the dev could have made a mistake.
Clearly, you need to shut the fuck up and wait until the facts come out.
I'm not defending the dev, just acknowledging what they have stated to explain why the revocation took place.
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Why, exactly, would I need to wait 'until the facts come out'?
If the guy didn't get paid, he shouldn't wait 4 years to deactivate keys.
What 'facts' am I waiting for?
Again, go grab yourself a clue.
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so lets say you buy a physical minecraft lego. Lego forget or not paying for the franchise rigth and minecraft developer knocking on your door and taking away your lego. I guess its ok.
Its also unbelievable that he realise after a year that he not had the payment?
It looks very shady.
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More apt comparison would've Apple/Google/etc. remote bricking your phone if it was stolen or chargedback. Technically you don't lose phone, but you can't use either.
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But yeah I agree that waiting this long is very shady, especially with reports of groupees keys being revoked too.
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I have no idea what the normal time-frame of payments for bundles is with IndieGala, but I remember (based on information leaked years ago with regard to other bundle sites) that a couple months' after the end of a bundle was not unusual.
Below here you suggest that the developer should "at least try to solve the problem before revoking keys." Is it not plausible that he did just that during the one year span between bundle time and now?
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They shouldn't.
But they should also at least try to solve the problem before revoking keys. Instead of revoking and then trying to solve.
It's very possible that he can't even get enough keys to replace, depending on steam sales, so there's that too.
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Just like people should let the dev give them the game back like they promised before raging online and making reports and fake reviews, which was my point.
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Or the dev writing news about it and sensitising owners before revoking everything.
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Giving the game back will have to be either: 1) make it free for everyone, in which case it loses value to me and bunch others 2) ask Valve to make new thousands and thousands of keys to give for the crowd, in which case I would have to make sure I receive one via email/Steam/whatever way, which consumes my time and energy over something that I didn't cause myself.
In any case I say that's piece of turd and should be dealt with suitable comments, like those rages, reports and fake reviews. Yes. You make me suffer - I punish you. Works pretty good.
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What kind of value did a game you never played and didn't even know you owned before it was removed give you other than the +1? How much suffering did losing the +1 cause? You already farmed the cards that are the only thing of value the game has, so who cares about the rest. Making it free for everyone will cause a huge increase in booster drops for it so you will actually benefit from it.
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Don't boosters need a buying customer to buy something from the game or the game itself (key or Steam Store) to generate those booster packs to everyone? I'm pretty sure free loaders for free games don't affect anything on games, even if you have paid and farmed those extra cards from it.
And yes, I buy crap bundles from Indiegala, Groupees, Fanatical etc. just to get those +1s in my library. It's not a big loss but the principal that developer can revoke the key years later just for fun is crap. If I got the key for free from a giveaway where I wouldn't have to do anything but push a button, then I wouldn't care about it at all, but I paid so I'm entitled to my game. How'd you like 4K of your games revoked, just cause... Well, no payments to devs?
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Booster packs are generated when someone crafts the badge.
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Oh okay, thank you for the info. I guess it doesn't affect if you are a free loader, because then you won't receive trading cards, which promote crafting those badges.
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When I get all the card drops, then I'm eligible for the booster packs, so having the game removed from my account does devoid me from booster pack drops. They are generated whenever someone (anyone) crafts the badge and then assigned to eligible accounts using an algorithm based on account level and random numbers.
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Boosters drop when a badge is crafted for the game, which is why they are much more common during summer and winter sales. And more people having the game and cards means more badges crafted.
Yeah since losing the +1 is the same as losing +4k. I don't really care one way or another even if I got -1 every month ever since Steam stopped randomly counting games. I have lost hundreds if not thousands of games as keys and still don't care more than a meh's worth about that.
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Yeah, free loaders don't affect the market and highly unlikely will even start crafting those badges. If you really didn't care about your -1 you wouldn't be here telling how you don't care about it, now would you? I mean, I don't have anything else to do either, but I rather complain how I lost -1 from my library than post that "breh, it's all good, I've got 5K more to spare".
Actually Steam introduced a new method to check on those games. All the games with the badge "Steam is learning about this game" don't give you +1. Once they implement the new checking system, it will either delete the game from the Store or give you +1.
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I didn't lose anything so I'm free to laugh at the complaining, win-win. It's a nice way to spend waiting times in MTGA. :)
They can still sell their cards or trade for other cards, spreading them to far more people to craft for +100xp than before.
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And how is the dev going to compensate them for wasting their time chasing after activation codes they legitimately purchased (from a known shovelware paddler though but nontheless)?
Because let's be honest here: 10 minutes spent trying to solve this issue is worth more than the game itself.
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Yet it's worth spending those 10 minutes writing fake reports and reviews instead? That means you have plenty of extra time to waste on useless stuff. :P
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I did not purchase this Bundle so even if I wanted to I wouldn't be able to post a review ;)
While I have bought from them in the past I generally try to avoid doing business with known shovelware paddlers like GoGo Bundles, IndieGala, Groupees or Fanatical.
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Me neither so I get to waste my time by laughing at the silly drama about a lost +1 nobody gave a shit about before this. :)
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Well you got a point there but I think the question "if the people who purchase that sort of garbage and thus help steering the industry in a very undesirable direction are the real problem" is better left for a another time.
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Yeah, this guy gave his keys to be in two bundles and never got paid by either party. (either that, or he made a horrible deal with his publisher.. tough luck, there, pal... better luck with your next worthless game)
What a bunch of nonsense.
You are an idiot if you believe it, too. Congratulations.
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Yeah right, since resellers of shovelware must be the trustworthiest of them all. What next, G2A only selling legit games? Why would I need to believe anything when it doesn't concern me in any other way than having fun laughing at the entitled kids? And where do you see me doing it?
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Groupees and Indiegala are resellers of shovelware? News to me.
My key for Urban War Defense came from Build a Greenlight Bundle #7. It got revoked.
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Why are people still talking about Groupees like it's related in any other way than the dev's mistake of what keys went where. Groupees got hit by accident because he only wanted to revoke IG and was confused about the key order. But have you actually looked at IG bundles recently since it's news to you that they mostly push shovelware?
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You can only report it as a software, not the dev's behaviour, but you should know that from the option you're recommending using.
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Was anyone even playing that game ever or just very upset because they lost a couple cent +1?
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https://steamcommunity.com/app/397760/discussions/0/3374780959391387863/?tscn=1542550470
Definitely! Check his playtime for proof ;)
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Also it show us how the system works, and how unprotected we are as steam users (and probably any other digital service), every single dev can just revoke all the keys of his game just because... something...
"I'm wondering what kind of tools and check/balances are set in place to allow a Developer to revoke keys without some proof. Eitherway, the end customer (Steam customers) cannot be punished for a resellers' actions"
This is the biggest thing about this.
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Except that was public knowledge the moment Steam started selling digital licences to rent a game, never to own it. That's why many people didn't join back then and haven't yet to protest against it. I managed to avoid it before Civ 5 forced me to install Steam to play it. This is what we agreed to when we use Steam to rent games.
If what the dev says is true, the reseller is the one that should be punished for their actions, not anyone else. If someone steals your car and sells it to a third person, should the buyer blame you or the seller for it when the cops return it to you? Now people can insert some lawyerish BS about it's not theft since it's fraud etc, but the principle still stands.
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I know, but this at least open the debate about what needs a dev to mass revoke a key from users, dont need Valve be involved on the process? dont needs the dev have some kinds of proof before mass revoke keys? I dont care at all about this game in particular, but i think Valve needs to change how mass revoke works ;)
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What kind of proof can you have that you never got any money? And do you really imagine Valve cares since the games weren't bought from Steam store, to them it looks like people got what they deserve for not giving them their cut. The more hassle game resellers cause the better it is for their business.
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lol, someone hopes that IG will sue the developer because of the revoked keys... some people are really clueless.
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They're italian so they might visit him with a bottle of coke and a hammer though :D
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Trust me, the old school glass cola bottle + hammer thing sounds way more disturbing than waking up next to a severed horse's head.
It's almost certainly just an urban myth though (and an old one at that) but just to be sure I'd still not mess with italian girls without having serious intentions :D
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Waking up with a hammer and bottle of coke next to me in bed sounds awesome tho. Then I would have both a reason for my head hurting and something to drink right away. Can't see anything threatening in that. :P
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It matters for the level of butthurt they should be feeling. Many try to compare it to losing all your AAA games that you paid good money for, but in reality it's still like dropping a small coin. Would you rage if someone stole a quarter from you, calling the cops and reporting them to the FBI?
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It does not seem to me a great loss.
Btw he will surely compensate Indiegala and Groupees.
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Not a biggie really. In either way one of the participants will suffer, which brings huge joy to me. Either Indiegala and Groupees, who didn't pay the man, or the man, who lied to our faces and will face a fine. 😌
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I doubt Indiegala hasn't paid him, since we never hear anything about them doing this in the past, with Indieroyale the rumors were out there about developers not getting paid before the crap hit the fan..
I doubt Indie gala didn't pay him just because they could, we would have heard about it in the past.. It's more likely this guy was unhappy with his payment or didn't fully understand how bundle games work and revoked keys because he was mad it didn't generate sales like he thought it would.. Eitherway, this type of stuff does nothing to hurt the bundle sites, or people "who ripped him off" but themselves because they have lots of angry gamers and lots of bad press..
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And if indiegala didn't pay, it was most likely a mistake which would've been easy to fix. (Groupees having much worse record when it comes to payments)
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The mark of a non game is not having reviews about the game itself.
I sure would like to get to the end of this, but more than getting the game back, which is worthless, i would prefer to know what indiegala and groupees have to say about it.
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I hear everyone talking about Indiegala, but i got my key from Groupees and it got revoked too. Did Groupees also scammed the DEV?
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Did Groupees also scammed the DEV?
No, and the dev claims he didn't revoke keys from Groupees. Or rather he didn't intend to since evidence points to the contrary.
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How unfortunate. I'll keep an eye on this thread. Thank you for your clear reply with link.
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Not even the dev knows why our keys got revoked
"I don't understand how groupees keys are revoked, I've only taken the file used for and sent to indiegala."
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Maybe he reused keys for Groupees from IG batch (IG sends unused keys back).
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Groupees Build a Greenlight Bundle 7 is from 2014-06
IG The Twinky Twelve bundle is from 2017-08
Keys for Groupees were created 3 years before the IG bundle was released.
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Yeah, I don't have the IndiaGala bundle, only the Groupees one.
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How can they punish the merchant? And really it should be customers punishing the merchant when this happens, by things like chargeback...
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As I've said elsewhere in this thread, how is a starving indie developer whose first game needs to be bundled just to get the money to finish it going to afford a lawyer to file a lawsuit, especially an international lawsuit (since IndieGala is in Italy and most devs, including this one, is not)?
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With such a pristinely clear case of breach of contract, and seeing that IndieGala isn't sitting on a pack of lawyers like Valve is, it's actually not all that hard to sue even in another jurisdiction. It's not even like a case like that requires lawyers to be paid up front (plenty of lawyers will agree to receiving a percentage of the damages awarded). He'll have to deal with some annoyance, but that's about it.
A much harder problem for him to solve is what will happen if, say, one hundred of those 20 thousand users get angry (or money-grabbing) enough to decide to sue him in a bunch of different jurisdictions. How is he going to defend against that? He's also risking getting people to sue Valve and consequently getting Valve angry at him, which isn't the best thing in his position.
It may or may not be easy for him to sue IndieGala, but I am pretty confident that it's one hell of a lot easier than being sued by many customers, especially those residing in jurisdictions with customer protection laws. This is just anecdotal evidence, but in my jurisdiction, the whole "you have no rights to anything" song and dance from Valve is little more than a blob of null and void; it would be trivial to sue all parties involved for damages. What's more, should they fail to comply with court orders telling them to pay up, one can get an international order to freeze and seize assets.
My point being: the lawsuit is the only sane and effective way to do it. If it's not feasible, then there is nothing he can do, full stop. Revoking keys will not get him his money, it will not punish IndieGala, and most importantly, it will perpetually damage his image as a dev. He is hurting his customers and himself for absolutely no gain whatsoever.
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Hmm... I wonder about those suits... How many tens of cents they are will sue for...
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Here, it's more like hundreds of dollars per user without even trying, easily several thousand in what we call "moral damages". If billion-dollar corporations don't get to scoff at our consumer protection laws, I'd be hard-pressed to see why an indie dev would.
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you're living in la-la land. As an attorney, I can tell you there is no way I, or anyone I know, would take the case for a percentage.
Let's do some math. There are 20,000 revoked keys. The official price on steam for those is $6, and right now it's on sale for $1.49, but that's not what people paid for the keys, and it's certainly not what indiegala paid for those keys. I doubt it was that high, but let's say the contract was for $1 per key. That's damages of $20,000.
For breach of contract, it's very difficult to get moral damages, and the amount is usually fairly low, so I'm going to ignore that.
So now we're talking about maybe $20,000 in damages (but probably a lot less). When an attorney works on percentage, it's typically 1/3rd, so the most I could earn is $6,667. Now the attorney would have to front the expenses (court fees, postage, paper, etc) which could easily add up to a few thousand dollars. Let's call it $3,000. The most the attorney could 'earn' is $3,667. So here I am, spending $3,000 in the hopes of at best earning a $3,667 profit, if we win.
If I had to do literally zero hours of work, that's already a risky proposition, but I'd also have to spend a good 20-40 hours working on the matter, and possibly a lot more
I'd be insane to take that on.
*keep in mind that if punitive damages would be attached, indiegala would just declare bankruptcy. I doubt they keep a large amount of cash on hand, so a strong win win would actually end up with a worse result.
Likewise, if you're talking about suing the developer, well, let's say he has to pay penalties of a hundred dollars per key, that's two million dollars. do you think the developer has that kind of money, or will he just declare bankruptcy?
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note: turns out the keys were sold for $350. a third of that ain't even worth the time to ascertain whether or not there's a case.
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Perhaps all lawyers I know IRL are insane and/or living in la-la land then. *shrug*
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Lawyers take cases on contingency all the time. But the math has to make sense. Think of it like a formula:
$ = expected payout to attorney (being a percentage of the total winnings)
% = likelihood of winning
C = expected costs
H = probable number of hours needed
($% - C) / H = X
If X is greater than the attorney's desired earnings, it makes sense to take the case on contingency. If X is lower than the attorney's desired earnings, the attorney should pass. In the matter above, the expectations just don't justify taking the case on
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And then there's the possibility of a settlement, which leaves you coming out with just enough to maybe fill your car with gas and pick up a McDonald's happy meal on your way home. :3
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I agree with all your points, but I don't believe they connect with the conclusion you draw. You see, you are looking at things taking into account your jurisdiction's values for all of those numbers. That's very fair for your jurisdiction, but surely you realize that there are other jurisdictions on the planet, and the numbers in them will be different. You argue that it's not worth it in your jurisdiction and that's very fair (I don't know what your jurisdiction is, but if it's the US, then I have plenty of reason to believe you :P), but that doesn't mean that there aren't enough affected people in jurisdictions where the math does make sense.
To make things more interesting: here, a civil case at the value range I expect this thing to fall under requires payment of no legal fees whatsoever. More interesting still, and I know this will sound insane: I'm not saying that you can do it in practice, but at this value range, people can (at least in theory, per our legislation) represent themselves and waive the requirement to have a lawyer representing them.
In any event, my original point concerns the risks for the developer, rather than how individual users might make a penny from it. If it's a completely mad idea to sue him in large part because that would simply bankrupt him instead, isn't that all the more reason for him to go out of his way to avoid such a risk instead of charging headfirst into it? If you worked for him, wouldn't you have to be our of your mind to not stop him from taking such a risk? It's self-destruction, plain and simple.
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you're right, I was viewing it from the values of the jurisdictions I'm familiar with. In the countries where such a lawsuit would take place, it would not be economically viable to conduct the lawsuit. Not only would it not be viable for an attorney, it wouldn't even be viable for a consumer to do it without an attorney. Quite simply, a win would not be worth the cost of getting to court.
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In other news, I found out last night that IndieGala has shown proof of having paid the dev and this whole matter seems to stink of bad faith, so this debate (however interesting, which it certainly is) is kind of moot. Pretty sad behavior, really... I wonder what he was even trying to achieve.
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Why do you think he had some clear and well thought of plan to begin with? Instead of being broke and desperate, getting drunk on a weekend and figuring out it must be because the bundlesites screwed him. Then acting up on the confused idea before a good nights sleep. A lot of these things do happen on Fri/Sat, so to me the actual reason seems very obvious. :)
What I also find funny in this is that people imagine one person being the same as some big company like Bethesda, who they can sue for millions and have the law even care about their case. They quote consumer protection laws completely disregarding the parts where the seller has reasonable time to fix their error before any action would even be possible.
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But I don't think there's any well thought of plan! :D Rather, the entire point was that his actions looked suicidal to me, and the more I look, the more it stinks.
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And do you think the best reaction to someone thinking about suicide is to bully them online? Or that it's the best reaction to losing some never played forgotten +1?
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To bully them online? :^)
If anyone reading this doesn't get it, I was joking.
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yes, and it turned out that the agreement was for $350 dollars
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And I expect that's $350 more than 20k keys for that game are worth. :D hides
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$0.0175 per key. Farm for cards, sell at $0.03 each, $0.01 after Valve takes its cut. Profit!
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You need 20k accounts each with at least $5 real money spent before you can start farming cards, though. :D
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never gonna happen. See my response belowabove (and that's a "best case" scenario)
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It is indeed an ongoing trend and it sucks big time until Valve is going to limit the privileges for Devs to revoke keys on a whim.
The more customers complain, the sooner will it be done by Valve.
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I'm especially with you on the limiting revoking ability. It's ridiculously prone to abuse, and I feel like the instances where it's exploited outweigh when it's necessary or helpful -- at least when it's so easy to do.
I disagree on the whole, "The more customers complain, the sooner it will be done by Valve" thing, though. Valve doesn't exactly make it a habit to listen to the little people 🙃
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I know they won't listen to us little peeps. :(
But what else shall we do except complaining to support and bothering them so much that they actually have to listen?
That's my idea behind it, if you don't complain, you will never be able to gain attention for this specific problem. :)
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Sit and wait for our voices to reach them in Valve time, I'm 'fraid ;-;
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EU customers should use this:
https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main/index.cfm?event=main.complaints.screeningphase
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Oooh, nice. But who do we report, the guy or the Indiegala? >.<
Because I think Indiegala is responsible for the keys in the end, and the EU law hammer strikes them, then they can provide all the evidence to blame the guy, and EU law hammer strikes on him. Yeeeah.
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just do the reporting, it's up to them to determine the faulty party.
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Since the legal system needs to be spammed with useless reports about a couple cent game that the dev already promised to give back? I'm sure they are super interested in this.
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This is more a general issue and could also happen with more expensive keys bought from legit key selling websites (not talking about G3A and those).
Customers shouldn't get involved in disputes between devs and key sellers. And of course Valve should do the legal checks before allowing this. so easily.
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Neither should they spam 20k useless reports about it that only can ever punish the people who have to handle the reports. Report it on Steam, their support has to read that crap instead of actually helping people. Same with the legal system of countries and EU, they might have some real problems to handle. For this crime the best punishment is to never buy their games again, unless it gets resolved in some way and people get their games back. Just like you wouldn't file a lawsuit if your Chinese $1 bundle of electronics breaks, you throw it in the trash and buy something of better quality next time.
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If no one does the reporting, things won't get fixed. This is why they set up such a website.
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Except things are getting fixed on the right forum for it, Steam, where people complain to the dev and give them a chance to fix it, not on EU level. Is the company even based in EU?
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Indiegala is Italian, the dev is from Wales, and of course Valve has a EU subsidiary.
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So Brexit will remove them from EU long before some bureaucrat will find a couple cent game interesting enough to even look at the reports most likely.
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Again, this is a general problem with Steam giving too much power to devs. EU should step in at that level and force Valve to do the legal checks before (allowing) revoking games.
If the user got hold of a stolen key, then the dev might have good reason to revoke.
If the user has legally bought the key from a legit site (but the dev didn't get paid), then the user should not be bothered. The selling website has a financial debt towards the developer, but the user is not liable for that debt.
Imagine this happening elsewhere: You buy a new TV from an electronics store that goes bankrupt and because the store doesn't pay Sony/LG/Samsung, they come to your home reclaiming the TV. Unimaginable, because this would put all economy in continuous legal uncertainty, no one would buy anything anymore except for goods immediately consumed (food).
But this is just what is happening here.
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Neither should Steam support or the legal system of any country or EU be bothered with it, they have the least to do with it in this case. At least our laws say that you should first give them a chance to fix the mistake, I would imagine EU's are similar. If this doesn't happen in a reasonable time, only after that are you supposed to file reports anywhere.
Steam gives the power or generating thousands of keys for free to the devs and to sell them to resellers for fractions of cents. This is what Steam will remove if anything, so do you really want there to be no more bundles ever?
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Of course Steam should be bothered with this. They are the ones technically enabling the revocation.
They should request enough information before a dev can request a revocation of a large number of keys.
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So they will remove free keys from devs, problem solved. Are you happy?
"Require information".. you are requiring Valve to spend time and resources on looking at some random proof that doesn't concern them in any way. You didn't buy from Steam store, your loss. You bother them with reports, their loss so they will remove the source of that loss.
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If this is the only possible solution: yes. But I doubt there is no more useful way to handle this.
Steam need to do their homework.
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It's the only possible solution that doesn't involve them spending time and resources on the problem and actually benefits them with more sales since bundles are gone.
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Of course they will need to spend "time and resources" on this. They should protect their customers/users.
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LOL, what next, presidents should only tweet things that make sense? There should be global peace and end of famine?
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why would you assume the only way to fix the issue would be by steam no longer giving free keys to developers? Many ways exist to fix the problem that doesn't involve removing the ability to generate keys..
I doubt valve cares about this issue one way or the other, it would require lots of people being up in arms to make valve take notice..
I doubt the 4000 - 6000 keys being revoked from this game will even present a ripple to steam.. they likely won't even bat an eyelash at the 100 - 200 reports they'll get about the game, which could very well be negated based upon the developers reaction..
Worse case scenario, Valve terminates doing business with this developer.. the game is removed from the steam store altogether.. Best case, developer hands out new keys to gamers who owned the game..
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Because that's how Steam has always worked. Instead of actually solving problems they just keep punishing their users. Trading causes support tickets? Do they maybe spend a money to hire support people? Or do they perhaps keep on piling retarded limitations on trading that mostly punish people who never had any problems?
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Still no? Reason to stop using Steam, yes. Reason to stop buying bundles of shovelware, yes. Reason to never buy the single game the devs have made, yes. Reason to bother the legal system about couple cents, never. If you drop 20 cents on the street and somebody picks it up before you, is it reason to call the cops, reason to file a lawsuit, reason to complain to EU or reason to promise to yourself be more careful about your money?
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Since this is happening to a few thousand customers, yes.
And this might as well happen for more expensive games, because there is no serious control mechanism in place at Steam.
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You should read what EU says before making silly suggestions to file reports.
What can your customer claim?
Your customers have the right to ask you to do any of the following without any charge (for postage, labour, material, etc.):
repair the product
replace the product
reduce the price
cancel the contract and reimburse them in full (in some countries, the sales contract cannot be cancelled if the fault is minor, e.g. scratch on a CD case)
Repair or replacement
In most countries there is a "hierarchy of remedies". This means that your customer must firstly request that you repair the product, or replace it if repair is not a viable option (e.g. too expensive). You must do this within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience for your customer.
Notice the parts about asking them to replace the product and them having reasonable time to do so.
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So what? If the dev and/or Valve doesn't agree to replace the key in a reasonable time, that is exactly what the form is meant for.
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The dev already agreed to replacing they keys long time ago, but yet people rage on imagining they actually lost something.
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When?
Can you give us a link to the dev's post ?
Thanks.
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https://steamcommunity.com/app/397760/discussions/0/3374780959391387863/?ctp=5#c3374780959391449858
Right there on the first page, but does anyone bother reading anything? Nah, easier to keep on raging and filing lawsuits to Supreme Court than actually following EU's guidelines and giving them reasonable time to fix the problem.
Edit: dunno why I thought it was on first page, but still applies with almost every page having people quoting the post.
Also why isn't anyone reporting IG and after that requesting their money back? They sold you a faulty product, it's on them to replace or refund it since they are the retailer. Because that would make sense and actually punish the culprit (assuming the claim is real, not bs)? People are so entitled and illogical when it comes to them losing couple cents that they don't bother to think about what is right and reasonable, they can only whine "But I had a game!!!".
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People aren't going after IG because they're simple-minded. Developer is the most immediate (but possibly not root) cause, so he must be the bad guy.
Meanwhile, few think about the developer's perspective in these situations. You give thousands of keys to a bundle site to sell your game in their bundle, but they don't pay you for some or all of the keys. Maybe some are being used in ways you did not agree upon (one wonders where all of those Golden Flash Giveaway games came from).
Now, many here say, "That's the developer's problem! It's between them and the retailer." However, if you're a poor indie developer who hasn't even gotten one game fully launched and you're bundling it in Early Access (probably so you can hope to finish the game), you don't have money for a lawsuit, especially not an international lawsuit. The only leverage that developers have against bundle sites is revoking the keys. That is the only check against shady behavior on the part of bundles.
If gamers continue to place all blame on developers in these kind of situations, it is only going to further drive developers away from dealing with bundle sites (either specific ones, or probably in general). It is only going to add to the developing situation where there are fewer decent bundles and the prices are trending upward.
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Yes doing that would require actually thinking about it for a second in addition to having some kind of ethics. And they will never do that just like Valve will never spend money on fixing problems.
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Agree with you about Valve too.
They would love an excuse to crack down on developers selling games off-site whether in bundles or other storefronts. It would be very typical of them to do something that hurts users while touting it as a "feature" to address some problem we were supposedly having.
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Developer deactivated IG keys on purpose and only groupees keys by mistake by his words. Why you think he will replace IG keys even if he makes a claim like that now? Does it make any sense to you? And btw propably he can't undo the revoke and steam will not give him dozen of thousands of keys again.
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Which brings us back to making the game free for everyone for a week(end) like has been said before. For the exact reasons you say which were proven by earlier cases like this. Nobody still lost anything at all, only gained.
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One developer did that because he revoked used keys by accident. In this case the developer deactivated used keys on purpose. It's quite diffrent but time will tell. No need for extreme rage,i agree with you in that matter.
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On a side note I will work to make sure you guys get your keys back one way or another as it's not your fault, I feel like we've both been screwed over by these sale sites.
And that is the only way to do it. So unless that doesn't happen in a reasonable time, like 1-2 weeks because he needs to still get Steam to do that, then it's time to rage and report it.
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You probably know that, but when you say "free for everyone for a week(end)" it would have to be "no cost". If it's only "free on demand" you are only keeping it in your library as long as you have it installed. And you couldn't access it anymore, if he removes it from the store (becoming unavailable). Besides that, the dev would "lose" even more money, because more people get something for free than buying bundles.
It's okay if the dev undoes his mistake, but as Sandoukos already wrote, I don't believe him. I'm more interested in IndieGala's response.
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Yes of course meant the way that actually works and has been used before, even if I worded it unclearly.
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Mine got revoked too, was from the IG bundle!
There's another key sitting in my Groupees account........
Wonder what will happen if I activate that one!
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Seems quite an argument about why publishers should still be involved even these days, huh? After all, a publisher, having or representing a dozen or more titles, can have more an impact by simply refusing to further work with a site due to payment problems, or perhaps even more easily afford to have a lawyer employed. Instead of such a model them "indie devs" seem to be spending more time chasing payments, marketing, talking to customers and such, than time working on products (with skills they perhaps even spent years of learning on)..
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So I never had that account alert before, how did you guys handle this? Will I refuse potential support, if I use the close window permantently option?
Edit: For that particularly issue ofc
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There's nothing you can really do. It's just a notification that you notice how that one of the games has been removed from your library.
You can try contacting Steam support about it, but we already know the developer did it. And the outcome is yet to come.
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Thanks, so that means I can just close the window permanently?
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You can also look at the ugly warning color on Steam forever, your choice.
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Kind of masochistic approach, but some may really like it. :'D
To be honest, I don't get why Steam doesn't send emails as well. I only recall getting those client or browser notifications.
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Because this way they can prove that they told you about it, since it requires action from you. There must be some lawyerish reason for needing to do it that way so you can't claim you didn't even notice it.
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Yay, another dev that uses his amazing powers of keys revocation to get money from a bundle site! Of course it will get him/her the money instantly as people will flock to IG and demand that this poor dev gets his money right away! Why get an attorney and sue them when you can use the amazing-power-of-the-internet-mob™ instead!
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What makes you think an indie developer whose first project is in Early Access and is already being bundled (presumably to help get it finished) has the money to hire a lawyer for a lawsuit, especially an international lawsuit?
This is almost certainly the only leverage most indie developers (except those that have "made it") have against bundle sites if they are cheated in some way.
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If really think that this will have any other effect than just piss off potential customers I feel a bit sorry for you. But just a bit.
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this game is so awesome people want it right now, how could the developer be so greedy and not give it for free?
we were in the middle of a 500-hours long playthrough T_T come on dev, let us keepidlingplaying!
remember to support developers by reporting them, bundle sites have the right to take games for free!
on a side note, it's funny to see how people will keep buying from trash sites like groupees and indiegala after reading the claims this developer made against them. IF these claims are true, of course. 🤷
but it's easier to burn alive the single developer here, while people still have the option to buy from scammers. damn fine job here, siding with the big guy. 👍
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Thing is this just happened a week ago with another game. (Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet)
If a dev has a problem with a marketplace, why punish the customer?
What if Microsoft built a killswitch inside the code for Windows and because they got into a dispute with Amazon, Newegg, Best Buy etc they decided to simply switch off anyone's copy of Windows that was purchased at those retailers?
Devs are using this as a misguided retaliation and it's only hurting themselves and their customers. It's not like people are going to go out and buy the game now that it's been revoked.
Last week was Otaku and GoGo, this week is Indiegala and Groupees. Humble Bundle and Fanatical are probably next... =\
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What if MS deactivated all pirated copies of Windows sold bundled with laptops? Would it be the fault of the laptop seller or MS? This question fits the ethics of this case much better.
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No, that doesn't make sense.
I'm not sure why you are anti-consumer on this, if I went to Walmart and bought a Sony TV, installed in my living room for a year- does Sony have the right to come and remove the TV if they get into a dispute with Walmart? Of course not.
If the dev has an issue with the marketplace he has legal recourse against the marketplace. He shouldn't go after the consumer who rightfully paid for the item.
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It makes perfect sense if you bother to actually think about it instead of going "But I'm a consumer! I have the right to all stolen goods!". I'm not anti-consumer in the least, but neither do I believe in the BS that consumers are the only ones with any kind of rights ever.
Just like if the consumers have an issue with the faulty product they purchased, they should go after the retailer that took their money for it. If Walmart sold you a broken Sony TV that was refused warranty and just left there by the previous buyer, would that be the fault of Sony or Walmart?
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Again, you are making strawman arguments and conflating the issue at hand.
We aren't talking about a faulty product, or stolen/pirated goods, ok? Every store has their own policy to deal with that, typically a 30-day window, and legit stores don't sell stolen goods.
We didn't get the keys for this game in some back alley out of a van. We paid for it on a legit marketplace, and we are being punished for the alleged actions of the marketplace.
Again, does it make sense for Sony to come to your living room and take the TV from you if there was an issue between Walmart and Sony? You didn't answer the question, just tried to change the subject into something to fit your claim. You say you are not anti-consumer but you support this type of anti-consumer behavior. Why?
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We're talking about ethics, which seems to be a category far beyond the thinking of many people. How is the marketplace legit if it sells stolen goods (and still they are stolen if not paid for, you can lawyer BS that it's fraud all you want). What if the TVs were stolen from a Sony warehouse and the cops came to bring it back to them? Who is the fault for that then? I'm pro-comnmon sense and pro-ethics on this, are these concepts really so hard to get instead of just looking at your own navel thinking it's the only thing in the world that matters ánd has rights? Why are you pro-theft and pro-fraud is the better question, even if you try to mask it as some kind of legit concern for consumers?
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Nothing was stolen in this case except customer's money. The keys were willingly given to the marketplace.
I'm not pro-theft, why do you continue to use fallacious reasoning and claim it to be common sense? You STILL didn't answer my question about the TV, AGAIN you are turning it into something different to try to suit your point. Keep dodging the point and trying to deflect all you want.
"What if the TVs were stolen" They weren't stolen, SONY sold them to Walmart, but there was a dispute about payment.
You aren't pro-ethics, you are being irrational and accusing me of being pro-theft? Really?
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Who stole the money? IG. Who stole the keys from the dev without paying? IG. Who should you go after? IG.
You haven't answered any of my questions either, avoiding them because you know your answers would prove you wrong. You didn't lose anything physical or anything of value and you keep on comparing losing a +1 you didn't even know you had to people coming to take your TV away. And you keep up with the lawyer BS that fraud is not theft, protip: it doesn't make it right but yet you can do nothing but defend fraud saying it must be OK because it's not theft.
Bring a first rational thought into this instead of being entitled to keep all stolen things you bought, then I will stop calling you that? You have shown no understanding of what ethics even mean, only thing you can repeat is that you're the only one with rights and losing a +1 is huge punishment equal to having your TV taken from you.
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Who stole the money? IG.
You are wrong. Nothing was stolen. Maybe there is some money owed, maybe there isn't. You seem to know?
You haven't answered any of my questions either, avoiding them because you know your answers would prove you wrong.
Sorry, but your questions aren't relevant to the subject at hand. You just keep using logical fallacies, and telling me to refute them. That's not how logical debate works.
You didn't lose anything physical or anything of value
Yes, we did lose something of value.
And you keep up with the lawyer BS that fraud is not theft, protip: it doesn't make it right but yet you can do nothing but defend fraud saying it must be OK because it's not theft.
I never said fraud or theft was ok, you are the one who made illogical ad hominem attacks on myself and called me 'pro-theft'.
Bring a first rational thought into this instead of being entitled to keep all stolen things you bought,
Again, a personal attack, not logical.
You have shown no understanding of what ethics even mean, only thing you can repeat is that you're the only one with rights and losing a +1 is huge punishment equal to having your TV taken from you.
Are you done yet? I get it, you think devs should be allowed to take keys from anyone on steam, and I think they should only do so in the case of theft and fraud.
I contend that there was no theft nor fraud in this case, that the consumers are being punished for a dispute between developer and marketplace. I did not bring ethics into this, you did. I made the example of a TV to show a similar argument, but if that doesn't make sense to you, it can be a loaf of bread or a pack of gum if you like. These things all still have value and I don't believe the manufacturer has a right to take the product from the consumer if there is an issue between the store and the manufacturer.
If a bodega selling bubble gum goes bankrupt and cannot pay the gum manufacturer the $.25 for the pack of gum it sold you- it does not give the gum factory the right to go into your pocket and take back the gum. It does not make the gum stolen, it does not constitute fraud.
Hope you have a nice day.
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Nothing was stolen in this case except customer's money
You are wrong. Nothing was stolen.
Yeah since you can't even keep your fallacies consistent, there is very little hope of logic ever reaching you. I have said several times fraud=theft unless you're into lawyer BS making criminals victims and sueing victims for millions.At least you agree that you don't have any ethics.
You aren't buying anything to own on Steam ever, you're renting a license to play the games. So nothing you owned was taken from you. So still a TV couldn't be any further from a similar case. My example with MS and laptops is much closer which you can't seem to get or answer. Both involve renting digital licences to run some software and not paying the devs for it. Why are these things so hard to get? If you rent your house to person A who never pays you any rent and re-rents it again to person B who pays all their rents to A, do you think you have the right to kick them out or not? You haven't been paid rent for your house but the consumer living there has paid all their rent so they must have the right to live there forever, right?
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Dear god you watch too much TV.
There was no theft, there was possibly a contractual obligation that may not have been upheld, and that's all there is to it. Instead of going after the bad actors the dev decided to go after the consumers. That doesn't make sense.
There can be no theft when there is consent. That's how the law works, even if you don't like it or call it BS. As I posted elsewhere, there may be a civil tort in the way of unjust enrichment and/or breach of contract: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unjust_enrichment
You aren't buying anything to own on Steam ever, you're renting a license to play the games. So nothing you owned was taken from you.
Please try to stay on topic?
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We already know that you are unable to think ethically, only as a lawyer whose only purpose is to rip other people for as much as possible.
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/XBO7I/urban-war-defense-keys-being-revoked-up-dev-reply#mq2udrB
Nothing was stolen in this case except customer's money.
Your own words. So TVs are on topic with digital licences for software but how it actually works is not? Can you get any more inconsistent in your attempts at logic?
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We already know that you are unable to think ethically, only as a lawyer whose only purpose is to rip other people for as much as possible.
I don't know why you keep attacking me instead of having a civil conversation. You don't like lawyers, and you don't know much how the law works, and that's ok. I was only trying to state my point of view and I hope you have a nice day.
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Because you keep repeating the same BS argument based on the letter of the law, not the spirit of it, while ignoring having any ethics. Just like a lawyer who doesn't want justice, only to benefit personally. Stop doing that already and accept that anything gained by fraud can be called stolen in speech and ethics. It has nothing at all to do with what the crime would be called in court. It's wrong, period.
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If you rent your house to person A who never pays you any rent and re-rents it again to person B who pays all their rents to A, do you think you have the right to kick them out or not? You haven't been paid rent for your house but the consumer living there has paid all their rent so they must have the right to live there forever, right?
I like this scenario so I give it its own comment. It's close but not close enough.
First of all, a sublet requires landlord approval typically, it's in every lease agreement. Secondly, they all would have the same rights of any tenant-landlord relationship. You would have to evict both sets of tenants and sue for past rent.
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It's still lightyears closer than any of your "But next they will take my TV away!!!!" arguments.
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Please explain the logic of how a digital license for a game is more like a TV than a digital license for a software?
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Please explain the logic of how a digital license for a game is more like a TV than a digital license for a software?
Why?
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To make your logic look at least a bit sensible. Since you can't seem to explain how a TV and a game are similar, let's go back to the Windows scenario then which you claimed makes no sense.
- Laptop manufacturer gets a license from MS to bundle OEM Windows with their laptops.
- They sell laptops but never pay MS for the licenses making them pirated.
- MS deactivates all pirated copies of Windows
- Bundlesite gets a license from dev to bundle their game in their bundle.
- They sell bundles but never pay dev for the licences making them pirated, or stolen in common speech.
- Dev deactivates all pirated copies of their game.
Please explain the difference between these two scenarios? You haven't been able to do so yet, instead your answers have been "But MS can't take my laptop away from me!!" and "I have full right to sue MS for the Windows I paid for" instead of even blaming the manufacturer who was the only one doing anything wrong.
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Ok, thanks for posting that, it makes more sense to me than:
What if MS deactivated all pirated copies of Windows sold bundled with laptops? Would it be the fault of the laptop seller or MS? This question fits the ethics of this case much better.
Now I understand what you meant, sorry for misunderstanding. This is actually a good comparison, but I still would contend the fault would lie in anyone other than the consumer. I mainly worry that something like this will eventually happen, on a large scale affecting a lot of consumers when they are not at fault.
In your above scenario, I think both the laptop manufacturer and MS would be in the wrong for their actions. MS should sue the OEM manufacturer, not punish the consumer in my opinion. How are we to know who is or isn't at fault? Why would we consumers be retroactively punished for piracy when we acted in good faith?
Thanks again for posting the example more clear for me. I really appreciate it!
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No problems, always nice to reach more understanding instead of arguing about different things.
MS has done that tho several times, deactivating pirated copies if they can with WGA etc. These hasn't been any outrage about this towards them that I have seen (other than legit copies being hit it), because most agree that piracy is wrong especially if you make money from it. Instead both MS and the consumers should sue the manufacturer together.
https://www.gizchina.com/2018/11/03/microsoft-announces-massive-software-piracy-in-asia/
In this case it was a tiny indie dev of most likely just 1 person, not a huge megacorp like MS with 100s of lawyers ready to handle international lawsuits, so they get my sympathies. They are the ones being punished here, not people who lost a +1.
Paying for something illegal doesn't give you the same rights as legal, that's just a sad fact people need to accept especially if they buy things for next to nothing. It doesn't really matter who did the crime and what it was, selling the profit from the crime doesn't make it legit. The fallacy comes from assuming the marketplace is legit so the purchase must be as well. If we assume it wasn't, purchase should be voided and the marketplace should refund their customers since they are the only ones who profited from this in any way.
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Who should you go after? IG.
'Nuff said. More than anything, we shouldn't be okay with resellers not paying developers. I simply cannot understand why more people aren't concerned with this side of the discussion, particularly since it's been happening more and more lately.
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What if the dev is lying though? IG is an official marketplace, is it not? Here we have a dev who revoked keys a year later from both IG and groupees, but no one is skeptical of the dev?
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What if the dev is lying though?
That's a very good possibility, and one I'm even in discussion with someone about as I type this.
[2:22 PM]
☆ Tzaar ☆:
well, it does
but IG is the bigger side of the coin, imho
[2:22 PM]
Mullins:
but, my +1 T_T
[2:22 PM]
☆ Tzaar ☆:
because if they're not paying developers (and i do mean IF, because it hasn't been proven), that's a much bigger issue than one game being revoked
And I say IG is the bigger side of the coin because this isn't the first time it's happened, it's been happening with multiple bundle sites, and more and more often lately. Perhaps this ability to revoke keys is simply what's brought it to our attention, and perhaps it's been happening all along, but the devs just haven't had any power over it.
Just something to consider.
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True, and I agree- if IG isn't paying devs then IG should GTFO
I just know that it feels more like I was punished over this rather than IG or the dev. I didn't do anything wrong, so who did?
But yea, if there is something shady going on at IG then I'm all for grabbing the torches and pitchforks- but I don't think I should be punished for buying from an official steam marketplace when I did nothing wrong is all.
This is the first time it happened to me from an IG key, last week was the first time it happened to me ever with the Otaku keys for that other game. So I am legitimately concerned is all. Not trying to make enemies or lose friends over this.
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We're just having a discussion here is all. No blood, no foul. I just prefer to see all possible perspectives, with as much information as I can gather, and considering all possibilities before making a decision.
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This is the kind of post you should make if you want civil discussion. :)
Also you didn't buy from any offical Steam marketplace, there is only one of those called Steam store.
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If a dev has a problem with a marketplace, why punish the customer?
why side with the distributor which is stealing from the developer?
the only leverage this guy has is revoking the keys.
if people used at least 1% of their brains and stopped idling all the trash sites like indiegala sells, they would also stop buying from them. but instead they only blame the guy that revoked keys, not the scammers from bundle sites.
if this was an issue with Origin or Activision, people would instantly side with the developer...
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These are the people who also think G2A and Russian stores must be legit since they get everything so cheap. Can't be wrong if I benefit from it, right?
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Wow way to conflate the argument. Now we're talking about resellers instead of distributors?
Are you the dev? ^^
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Bundle sites are resellers, they buy the games from devs and resell them. Distributors, if there are any, would in this case be the ones between the devs and resellers. They are marked on Steam as distributors, bundles are a one-time thing, not a ongoing deal.
Are you the guy at IG who refuses to pay devs stealing their games?
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Ah I used distributor instead of marketplace, sorry.
Bundle sites are not resellers, you are wrong about that though. They are marketplaces is what I meant. G2A is a reseller.
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if indiegala didn't pay for those keys, then they are worse than g2a sellers.
indiegala, an official reseller hiding behind their title, doing business with stolen keys. sounds like g2a x100³.
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What if the dev is lying and trying to shake down IG instead? The point is it's not on us, the consumer, to be the punisher or the punished in this nonsense; it's between the dev and the storefront but the dev chose to go after the consumer instead of the storefront.
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I'm not siding with the distributor, I'm siding with the customer. The dev could have sued for payment owed, why didn't he? Maybe the dev is lying?
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i think the customer should side with the party that is also affected, instead of attacking it.
the one that triggered this reaction was the reseller, not the developer.
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If the dev came out and said well in advance there was an issue with IG or whoever- of course I would support them.
But the dev instead took a ham handed approach that punished everyone except IG or whoever they actually have any issue with, so no I don't support their actions.
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The dev just posted and admitted he made a mistake so I guess it will sort itself out:
I can promise everyone who bought a key will have the game returned at some point, I believe the issue is the keys were sold in a random order and so any key from 0-3866 in the batch are still valid as that was the amount of sales. Obviously I should of used the option to only remove unused keys as it has effected genuine paying customers as well as ones fraudulently purchased. I apologize and once again I promise in time the game will return to your library one way or another.
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Mistake was revoking the Groupees keys along with IG ones, not the whole thing.
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Mistake was revoking keys at all instead of just going after the people who owed them money.
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Just like the mistake of going after the dev you didn't buy a single game from instead of the retailer who sold them to you. Why is this simple thing so hard to get, it works both ways.
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I'll be honest, that's a good point masquerading in the most arrogant and ridiculous text.
It doesn't matter if you play it or not. They bought the product, so why should it be taken from them? Although maybe you're down with people basically stealing your things. If so, then I'm sorry, but you're in the minority. Not using your stuff has nothing to do with ownership and you're just trying to steer the conversation away from the actual topic.If you own a game, then you own it. If you want to idle it, you're allowed to. If you want to play it, that's fine too. If you want to just own it, you should also be fine. Chastising people for not wanting something they purchased to be taken away goes 100% against your own narrative which you're now going for (The big guy vs. small guy narrative).
As to your David vs. Goliath narrative, I agree to an extent. Indiegala is a good example of fishy business practices and I've been a victim of that myself. They deleted my account with around 20 keys on it for no reason. It's unacceptable in my eyes and since then I've never cared for them in the slightest. But at the same time, the existence of other accusations doesn't make this one any more or any less valid. This is an accusation and it should be treated as such. I'm just disappointed to see that the developer made this claim without a shred of proof. Also that instead of starting off contacting Indiegala, he first revoked the keys of those that were willing to give him money and then said that he'd contact them. No matter whether he's right or wrong here, the developer screwed over his customers and that's that.
Hopefully the situation gets resolved and things like this get less frequent.
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Although maybe you're down with people basically stealing your things.
that's what people are doing here. the dev didn't get paid, so all those keys are stolen. enjoy siding with a scamming reseller.
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But that's not how theft works.
The dev willing gave the keys to IG or Groupees or whatever. It was not stolen. A contract dispute does not change the de facto state of the property. People legitimately paid for legitimate keys.
Now, a year later the keys are revoked- how does that make sense if the keys were stolen? A year later they are revoked?
If you buy a car from a Ford dealership, who doesn't pay the dues to Ford motor corporation- they don't come and repossess your car. It isn't 'stolen'. They sue the dealership and get what they are owed.
Imagine I sold you a computer for $1000, and you gave me $750 upfront and told me the rest will come later. Imagine you don't pay me, so I come to collect the computer back- but you have sold it to someone else. Does that give me the right to go take the computer from whoever you sold it to? Nope. My only recourse would be to take you to court.
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I never said they couldn't take stolen property. I said the property was never stolen to begin with and gave 2 examples to support what I meant. Has nothing to do with pawn shops but whatever.
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Goods obtained under false pretenses are legally considered stolen. So in your second case, it could very easily be considered stolen and not just a contract dispute.
Even more likely so in the case of these Steam keys, since there was no partial payment that could be seen as establishing intent. There was only a false promise of payment that never came.
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Goods obtained under false pretenses are legally considered stolen. So in your second case, it could very easily be considered stolen and not just a contract dispute.
Not necessarily. Criminal theft is to intentionally deprive someone else of their property without consent. The dev gave his consent when he sent the keys.
The closest thing I can compare this to may be unjust enrichment, which is a civil tort and can be resolved in civil court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unjust_enrichment
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Nah, it's theft by false pretenses.
If consent is given in exchange for a knowing lie, the consent is legally invalid and it becomes theft.
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I'm not so sure, this seems more like 2 parties agreed to a transaction and possibly one did not perform their part of the contract. But who knows, I'm not the dev or IG. XD
Edit: Nice legal terminology though, kudos my dude!
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Yes, you're right. But you're not realizing that they entered into a contract. The developer started selling things on their site and they didn't allegedly pay like the contract said. That's not theft and it's not possession of stolen goods. This is a breach of contract and you can sue for it. The perpetrator is Indiegala in this case, not the buyer of their game.
You're mixing up contract breaches with actual theft.
Doesn't make this better, mind you. It just means that the customer isn't at fault here and punishing them is (probably) still legal, but he's punishing the only people that actually paid for his stuff.
Also, you're saying "the police can force the return of stolen property.", like this was anything like that. Instead, the 20,000 products were destroyed by the manufacturer of the product, who, well, dare I say it, isn't police. Not to mention, pawn shops aren't comparable in this case. Indiegala doesn't buy keys from individuals with whom they make a small contract for each sourced item. It's a retailer that sells goods that they've sourced through legal contracts through the supplier. If you actually look at the law, there's a clear distinction between these things.
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Ah, but remember, these are licenses, and any issue with the payment is grounds for termination of the license by the developer. So it's not really destruction at all and there are no "goods". The distinction between licenses and goods has been upheld several times and is going the same way in Disney v. Redbox
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I looked into Disney v. Redbox and the cases are completely different. While one is a contract where a middleman gets a cut for selling a game on their site, Disney v. Redbox was about Redbox signing a contract where'd they have to sell their "Combo packs". Redbox violated that contract because it took the bundle apart and sold each piece separately, which violated the copyright law through it becoming a new product.
Two things to note here. First is that Disney had a pack that the Judge declared to not be worthless, unlike Redbox claimed. The reason for that was that the discs were still there and also that the method of the code's acquisition went against the terms it was supposed to follow, which was that you had to essentially own the whole combo pack.
Now, second is that this whole argument in the end is based on two things: terms of service and copyright. Indiegala and the consumer didn't actually break either. The keys that were given weren't put into the bundle against the wishes and terms set by the developer. So, that immediately counts out the copyright portion. But also, the Terms of Service don't line up with claims that the customer's right to the license is void if the developer hasn't received payment from any third party that the developer has locked themselves into a contract with.
Technically, the developer still has a right to do it thanks to the legalese of the Terms of Service, the developer has nearly completely free reigns over the licenses. But that's still extremely anti-consumer and in the end equates to nothing more than an outburst.
The Disney v. Redbox case, from what I've examined, doesn't actually set a precedent for this situation because this was a copyright directive violation and the other is a contract violation for payments. While Redbox did make a similar argument with the claim of license keys being worthless, it was ultimately dismissed by the Judge for reasons that aren't present in this case. Mainly the physical aspect of the bundle with a combination of the clickbind.
As to why I said "destruction", I wasn't clear enough at first. The reason I said destruction was because this precise product can never be restored. Ever. As far as I'm aware, you can't unrevoke a key. At best you'll receive a new key once Indiegala either settles the case out of court, goes through arbitration or goes through the court case.
The case is interesting though and whoever is by any chance reading these comments, feel free to check it out since it's an interesting one.
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Literally not the case.
If you have a middleman selling you something, it's the middleman's duty to give the funds to the developer of that product. So we give our money to Indiegala. The consumer did their part. Indiegala takes their cut and passes the rest of the funds off to the developer. We're not at fault if someone else scams someone.
Also, you forgot allegedly now. Basically this has been an unproven accusation considering the person never gave proof.
Also, you didn't read my comment because I sided with you. Literally said that in the beginning. I just disagreed with that paying customers should be punished for the shady business of Indiegala. I'm not Indiegala. You're not Indiegala. None of these customers are Indiegala. Punishing us will do nothing but punish us. Our money is allegedly at the hands of Indiegala. You don't give them the money directly. If Walmart sells you toilet paper and the manufacturer isn't paid for that toilet paper, it doesn't get taken from the customers. Walmart would be taken to court and the money he deserved would be taken like that. Or there's arbitration or just some sort of a settlement without court. The point is that we held our part of the deal, but Indiegala didn't and neither did the developer now.
But yeah, you didn't read my comment of course. I was perfectly clear with what I said and actually tackled multiple points you may have by preventing them. Read that comment instead of latching onto something that you can turn into a "gotcha" moment to support your narrative. It's ridiculous how we both agree and yet because I don't see things as black and white as you, you immediately start fighting. Love it.
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i started fighting, by replying to the wall of text you threw at me. lovely.
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The size of the text has nothing to do with it. I wanted to explain my position. A good argument is usually a statement, followed by a deeper explanation of what you meant to clear up confusion and an example to explain it further.
Maybe fighting isn't the right word. The point was that you didn't read my comment and instead picked a single sentence out of the whole argument and based a quip around it.
It's fine if you don't want to read it, mind you. Reading responses isn't compulsory, but don't act so surprised when you get called out for not actually reading what you've been written.
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I'll be honest, that's a good point masquerading in the most arrogant and ridiculous text.
Ever considered the possibility that you might get better replies if you don't begin by insulting and belittling people?
"I agree with you, but you're an idiot" isn't usually the best way to spark adult conversation.
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I think you're right, yeah. I shouldn't have been rude back at her. I just hope you realize that this coin has two sides.
But regardless, your point is valid and I shouldn't have been a dick.
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That's the thing- the dev could have gotten a lot of support from customers and the customers could have helped. Instead, the dev punished all the customers instead of the marketplace, so all goodwill is gone.
This is the second time this happen in a week so if people aren't concerned then they must not buy from marketplaces other than Steam...
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So would you have been up to arms for this game and dev? Be honest here? How many ours would you have spend to help the dev?
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I would have tried to help. Not sure why it comes down to what anto_capone would do, but ok.
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Well, I personally would've said "We'll have to see whether this is true or not, considering the developer hasn't proven anything. It'd be downright crazy to go and fight for someone who basically made a random accusation at this point".
Now, whatever happens, the developer is a piece of shit for taking things from the buyer because of a contract dispute. So yeah, if he's telling the truth, I hope he gets the money he's owed. Although, now he's owed nothing since he himself literally breached his contract by making the products people paid for to Indiegala completely worthless.
So one shady company being accused of something vs. a developer that breached his contract and through that lost his rights for anything anyways.
I don't have to be spending time to help him. But when it comes to public opinion, I'm now not on his side whatever the circumstance.
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Right, exactly how I feel. I am glad to help others, I would have spent a few minutes of my life sending a letter to IG or whoever on their behalf and shared it with others.
As it is now, I wouldn't piss on this dev if he was on fire XD
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And how many minutes have you spend on this thread ;D
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You're completely right. He's obviously spent a lot of time here. But I also think it makes sense that he did from the perspective of human psychology. If a person feels wronged in some way, they'll spend more on that issue than if they weren't.
That's why you don't have many people going to Africa to build houses and to teach the locals. They're not personally affected by it, so there's less of an incentive either way.
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If my game was being sold without my permission and without my being paid for it, I'd pull the plug, too. If anyone is throwing a tantrum, it is those people who are crying over a game they paid a few cents for and described as "trash."
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allegedly, kinda hard to take the devs side when he claims to have just recently gotten into contact with Indie gala support and we as consumers haven't heard any inklings of Indiegala not paying Developers for their games being in bundles..
Sounds like he made a knee jerk reaction after all his inaction and made the worst possible decision he could have made.. invalidate unused keys to kill the gray market.... Revoke redeemed keys means you're getting lots of bad press.. LOTS of it..
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Sounds like he just misunderstood how keys work... he sent the keys to indiegala and received the payment (supposedly, because he didn't say a word for over a year). He probably expected all users to activate their keys within days, he couldn't understand why some of these keys were being activated over time.
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So he got paid then, thought was a couple months ago when he provided the keys and was expecting insta-pay
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Pay later providers are common, he provided a bunch of keys to Indiegala and I want to believe, they made a kind of 'contract', so yes he was aware of indiegala selling his keys(With his own permission and provide). And buyers can make any opinion they wants about a product, an opinion doesn't make it law, doesn't matter how much you paid for it,
Both liked money so seems provider here doesn't understood how bundle sites like Indiegala worked.
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Did anyone else get bundle key for this revoked?
https://steamcommunity.com/app/397760/discussions/0/3374780959391387863/
I got revoked, but no idea which bundle it was from.
Edit: Both IndieGala and Groupees keys were revoked.
Dev reply:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/397760/discussions/0/3374780959391387863/?ctp=4#c3374780959391446030
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