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12 years ago
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Peoples' incorrect use of apostrophe's annoy's me more.

12 years ago
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As much as incorrect use of plural for "annoy"?

12 years ago
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He was using apostrophes incorrectly on purpose, which created that incorrect singular form. (The plural form is "annoy.")

12 years ago
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A cigar for you, good sir...

12 years ago
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I'm not so sure, he got the first one right.

12 years ago
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No I didn't.

To put the apostrophe at the end is as grammatically incorrect as the other two instances.

12 years ago
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Maybe in this instance it is. It just doesn't look right to me without it. I just had a quick search but it's difficult to find it in this context.

12 years ago
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Please don't take any of this personally, as I don't mean any offence. As I explained elsewhere on the page, the version you suggest only makes sense in a very specific context, and not this one.

Ok. So you still want some proof! As an illustration, try googling for "people's opinions", with the quotation marks. You'll find 2,610,000 hits.

Now try googling for "peoples' opinions". Google tries to autocorrect you, and you find that the vast majority of the hits are without any apostrophe at all (a mistake, since we're using a possessive), incorrectly picked up by the google search. The remainder are mostly grammatical mistakes and typographical errors.

12 years ago
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None taken. Though to be fair we are not talking about people's opinions, we are talking about their use (which I did search). It actually gave me more results under the first one, though many of the threads are asking which to use.

I couldn't be bothered to do all different kinds of searches.

12 years ago
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While we weren't talking about people's opinions, the use of the apostrophe will remain unaffected whether we are talking about their opinions, their fitness, their use of commas or their underpants :)

"Opinions" was the first search that came to mind, and it provided enough results to be relatively conclusive.

12 years ago
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Its called irony obviously your not too Smart arent you i bet you fails at gramar and punctuation to

12 years ago
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If you were to use irony you'd fail at all of them, not some of them. I guess I'm not too smart. In fact I must surely be a retard right?

Sorry if I have ruined your life with this thread. I shall now cry myself to sleep, contemplating suicide.

12 years ago
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Evidently your irony chip is in upside down today :D

Besides, "annoys" is not a pluralisation, and would be correct in this instance:

"People's incorrect use of apostrophes annoys me more."

12 years ago
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It annoys, they annoy.

12 years ago
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Correctamundo, But the "use" is an "it" not a "they"...

In terms of sentence structure, is the "use" that we're getting annoyed by, not the "people" or their "apostrophes".

12 years ago
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Are you sure? Wouldn't the "peoples'" denote it's plural?

12 years ago
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"People use grammar incorrectly" is the correct phrase.

No 's'.

12 years ago
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I know that is, but you said "peoples' incorrect use.." which is perfectly acceptable.

12 years ago
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I don't think it matters whether people is singular or plural, because either way it is referring to a singular thing, and that thing annoys you. The thing that annoys you is the incorrect use of apostrophes, a.k.a. "people's incorrect use of apostrophes".

12 years ago
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But both people and apostrophe are denoted as plural in this case.

12 years ago
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"People's incorrect use of apostrophes" is annoying
"People's incorrect use of apostrophes" are annoying

We know that "is" indicates the singular, and "are" indicates the plural. Which one sounds better?

12 years ago
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"are" sounds better. Which takes me back to this:

It annoys, they annoy.

12 years ago
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Well I disagree with you on that, so I guess my demonstration there was pointless.

12 years ago
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"Are" sounds really awful. Even if it did sound good, that would have nothing to do with anything. Sound is irrelevant.

12 years ago
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Most of the time, you can tell whether a sentence is grammatically correct by ear. At least in cases like this one, where the disagreement is over pluralization. Of course there are exceptions, but I use it as a rule of thumb, and it's usually served me well.

12 years ago
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Me too. Generally it does help.

12 years ago
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Why even bother with such a useless comment then? He was asking me how it sounded, not you.

12 years ago
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He's contributing to the discussion by saying you're wrong, and that the argument does not hold the weight that we believe it does. It's not a private argument, he can offer his opinion too.

12 years ago
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Yeah, that's what I was doing.

Also, you're right - recognized sentence patterns (how it "sounds") can be used to help your brain to make the connection intuitively. I'm just arguing that personal perspective doesn't have a relation to grammar or how we determine if a sentence works or not.

12 years ago
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He was saying your point was irrelevant (by making an irrelevant comment himself). You asked which sounded better, I told you. It required no further input.

I know how something sounds doesn't dictate how it's written, but it can help (which is what I thought you meant).

12 years ago
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No. It isn't. Not unless we are talking about people collectively, as a racial group. I'm talking about aggregations of unrelated individuals, united only by their misuse of grammar.

You might talk about "Indigenous peoples" or "Pacific peoples", but "peoples" is used to describe a racial grouping, not an unspecified section of the public who get their dots, squiggles and dashes muddled up, and live in fear of a visit from the the grammar SS. Those are just "people".

"Some people's incorrect use of apostrophes annoys me more."

"The Pacific Peoples' incorrect use of apostrophes annoys me more."

Unless you're suggesting some sort of correlation between an as yet unspecified racial group and grammatical aptitude, you definitely want to leave the apostrophe where I put it...

12 years ago
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"People's" makes sense.

12 years ago
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People who are stubborn without a sensible rationale behind the stubbornness are the most annoying. Look, no apostrophes! Now make an argument or quit babbling the same nonsense.

12 years ago
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No need to be a dick. AtomicWoodchuck was using that with the apostrophe that way. I was agreeing that it made sense with the apostrophe before the "s". Where I had previously thought it ok after the "s". I wouldn't call that being stubborn but whatever.

What you've done is completely restructure the sentence.

12 years ago
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Haha, I misunderstood your reply to him - I thought you were just saying the exact same thing again because that's what I was expecting to see.

I did intend to completely restructure the sentence to make a point and to make a joke. Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

12 years ago
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I'm relieved I'm not the only one making mistakes here. I only made this fucking thread as an excuse to post some videos I thought was funny.

12 years ago
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And now the grammar nerds are having fun with it instead. =)

12 years ago
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No. "Annoys" is tied directly to "use." It has no relation to "People's."
The reason is that the use is it what is doing the annoying. The people themselves are not annoying the "me" in that sentence. Therefore, only "use" is tied to "annoy."

This doesn't mean I'm automatically right, but I'd like to explain that my credibility comes from these things:

  1. I teach college English for a living.
  2. I study linguistics as a hobby (and am not a "real linguist.")
12 years ago
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I think it's tied more closely with "apostrophes". But since I was mistaken about the apostrophe after (before) the "s" in "people's" I may be mistaken about this too.

12 years ago
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Okay, so, let me explain this with words and then a diagram.

Grammar rule: The number (singular or plural) of the subject must match the number of the verb.
"Use" is the subject. "Annoys" is the verb. Therefore, they must both be plural or both be singular.

Constituent tree:
(S (NP (NP Peoples incorrect use)
(PP of
(NP apostrophes)))
(VP annoys
(NP me)
more)
.)

EDIT: the chart didn't hold it's formatting enough to make sense, so I removed it.

12 years ago
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You're right about "use" being key, but fuck me sideways.... That is a hugely impressive chart, but I don't know how to begin understanding it.

Is there a hidden giveaway?

12 years ago
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I removed the chart because I couldn't get the formatting to work right.

If you want to parse the sentence yourself and see a correct chart, enter it
here.

For extra fun, uncheck "allow null links" and then enter the sentence incorrectly. It won't display the chart because it doesn't parse grammatically incorrect sentences. Also, don't expect that parser to always work, even with correct sentences. Computers can't parse every sentence because computers don't really understand language or even the nuanced possibilities of a word. It can't understand conversational sentences (even though they might be correct) like "Hey, you, what's up?"

(No hidden giveaway. Just nerdy fun.)

12 years ago
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All those letters and no hidden giveaway?

Son... If you will pardon the grammatical shortcomings of this phrase, I am disappoint :(

12 years ago
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Is "use" single or plural?

12 years ago
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"Use" is singular and "annoys" is singular.

12 years ago
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So the rest of the sentence has no bearing at all on whether "annoy" changes?

People who use cars annoys me.

People using cars annoys me.

People who use a car annoys me.

People's use of cars annoys me.

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In the first three, the people are the subject of the sentence. They're the ones annoying you, so you should be using "annoy".

In the fourth sentence, the use of "annoys" is correct, since the subject is "use".

12 years ago
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The amount of replies is too high

12 years ago
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Subject is "amount" - singular. Nothing to see here...

My one glib, throwaway comment that wasn't really very funny in the first place, and the thread has ended up circled in chalk, and covered in tyre tracks, face down in the middle of Grammar Boulevard :(

12 years ago
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I see, but how do you decide what the subject is?

12 years ago
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To be honest, one of the English teachers on the thread will do a much better job explaining than me, since they explain it week in, week out, and will probably have some nice well worn stock answers they can reel out, but the subject is the "thing" which is doing something, or having something done to it. In this case, the "deed" is causing you annoyance.

If you re-read the sentences, in the first three, it's clearly the people who are annoying you. In the fourth, it's something belonging or attributable to the people (their "use" of cars), as designated by the possessive form ("people's"), which is annoying you.

12 years ago
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I knew that the first 3 were incorrect. I did it to get an explanation of how the subject is decided, because clearly "use" doesn't dictate whether annoy will be plural or not by itself.

I think I know what you mean in the second paragraph.

12 years ago
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That's pretty much the explanation I would use. Another way to think about it is this: find the action happening in the sentence. Then find out what is doing that action.

As to explaining it week in and week out, I'm not sure I've actually ever had to explain it to anyone except when I tutored in high school. I teach college English classes, so my students are expected to already know the most basic element of grammar (how to find the subject and verb.) My classes don't spend any time on grammar at all, unless an issue is shared by several of my students at once, such as the occasional run-on sentence epidemic or a confusion-about-the-semicolon plague.

That's not to say that my students have perfect grammar usage without proofreading, but they usually understand their mistakes and fix them, given enough time and a request from me to do so (after looking over their rough drafts.) I suspect most of them can't explain how they know what they know, but most of them vaguely know it anyway.

12 years ago
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I , d,o,u,b,t, y,o,u u,n,d,e,r,s,t,a,n,d, t,h,a,t, I, d,o,n,t, c,a,r,e,,,,,

THAT WAS A JOKE,THX 4 COMING

12 years ago
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Did you watch the videos? I'm disappointed you didn't spell "coming" with a "u"....

:(

12 years ago
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Whats all this problem with punctuation and stuff i dont understand it makes no sense

12 years ago
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It can change context. Watch the video.

12 years ago
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Of course it can. You're taking all this comments a little too seriously.

12 years ago
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No I'm really not. If you'd watched the videos...

12 years ago
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Not yet. I don't dare to open a video with my data plan

12 years ago
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You're a bad man, Moyako.

Reeled in...

12 years ago
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My favorite badman

12 years ago
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I got marked down on a paper for making a comma splice once, to this day I'm still not sure what a comma splice is.

12 years ago
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Basically you put a comma instead of a full-stop (or semi-colon).

12 years ago
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I think I'd need an example to understand such a complicated subject, many researchers agree that vivid examples are the key to learning new subjects.

12 years ago
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Ok: "It was a nice day. We went to the seaside." is correct. "It was a nice day, we went to the seaside.", while commonly used, is a gramatically incorrect substitition of a comma for a full stop. That's a comma splice, welding together two sentences that should technically stay separate :)

12 years ago
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I'm still not sure I get it, usually it takes a lot of examples for me to catch on.

12 years ago
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Sorry, for some inexplicable reason i missed the irony in your sentence above, please accept my humble apology's, I hope your not one of the peoples' who are guilty of crime's against the great Gramer God G'or"ou,,su.!o!r, may all the unbeliever's burn in a great fire off tormented punctuation mark's especially sharp pointy commers

12 years ago
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lol, I was worried nobody was going to catch on :-P

also, even though you used it incorrectly for the sake of humor, every time I see "your/you're" or "there/their/they're" used incorrectly I want to punch my monitor.

12 years ago
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nice... ☺

12 years ago
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I always use comma splices. Except when I don't. Then I don't.

12 years ago
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I, am, perfectly, fine, with, the, way, people, use, commas.,

12 years ago
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Just an FYI, you have too many commas in your sentence. You're welcome.

12 years ago
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i'm sorry - but does anyone really care about "proper" punctuation and shit here..? i mean it's about as casual as it gets for the most part so i don't see the problem - why bother writing "i just farted" correctly - the message gets through

On the other hand, if there is a more formal point to be made, or a somewhat serious discussion, I can see the importance of at least trying to follow correct style. It's hard to be taken seriously if you can't even be bothered to put a little effort into your ramblings. While paying attention to the rules has its place, I think most of the threads and posts here are perfectly fine with all disregard for the rules.

yer 8th grade english teacher ms. thornbush ain't hoverin' over ya with her red pencil so fuhgedaboudit

EDIT: except for the wrong use of your / you're - that shit just pisses me off ☺

12 years ago
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You didn't watch the videos.

12 years ago
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yeah - i, uh, tried to but got distracted by the ones on the sidebar and went stumbling off down the youtube squirrel trail until i ended up here

12 years ago
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Sometimes I like to use the "back" button on my mouse and experience my Youtube journey in reverse.

12 years ago
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The video reminds me a little of the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves", although that particular example never made it into the final printed edition :)

12 years ago
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It's in version 2 (written for scallies).

12 years ago
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Haha! Sounds like I might have to track that down...

12 years ago
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Hey try teacheing grammar and commas to chinese kids, they use full stops like there is a prize for using the most, damn it is annoying

12 years ago
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Hmm, I taught quite a few Chinese students in my Freshman Composition class at NAU in Flagstaff, Arizona. They used full stops more properly than American students. Weird.

12 years ago
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_> If I had to guess, he's "teacheing" grammar to Chinese kids in China.

12 years ago
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He's certainly bad enough at it that I wouldn't want him teaching anyone. He's using commas at places they don't need to be and leaving them out where they're needed.

Also, in case that was confusing, my Chinese students had just transferred from China, so English was not their first language.

12 years ago
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Could be way off beam, but I suggest he is being ironic with his use of grammar?

While the grammar buggy has hit a haystack, snapped its axle, and several hens have set up nests in its innards, it's full steam ahead for the irony bandwagon in this thread....

12 years ago
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Yeah, he might be. If he is though, I don't really how Chinese kids come into the joke... If not for them, I would have assumed irony.

12 years ago
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No, not irony just lazyness and cbf'ed. And I also suck at grammar -I failed it at school, but thankfully it has improved and now I am training the Chinese teachers

12 years ago
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No i am in China teaching Chinese students Chinese - feel free to hate on me because I am 18 finished high school 6 months ago and have only have 15 days of training, so far i have been teaching for 2 months.

12 years ago
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Good on ya. Sounds like an interesting placement :)

12 years ago
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Okay, I hope that goes well. Just keep in mind that you shouldn't really be mad at them adding full stops when you're forgetting to use them yourself. That implies that they could be using them correctly.

12 years ago
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This tells us a lot about your "search" habits on the internet.

12 years ago
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That second video. Wat. Just wat.

TBH, I can't decide which of my first link or the second video is worse...

12 years ago
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Closed 12 years ago by lecrow.