Ah, never thought of it that way. Wait, i'll add you and send you the key so that you can check it for me, thanks in advance.
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Seriously? That was clearly a joke... This reminds me of the Count Dankula court case. Obviously not as dramatic, but it's the same principles: Context and differentiating between jokes and ill intent. Having a 0 tolerance begging policy is respectable, and the mod may not have realized it was a joke, but rash decisions like these should be avoided.
Even if the OP were to attempt to give you the keys, that's not your problem (unless you'd activate the keys, or something). That would have been the OP's fault for being naive.
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So you think everyone should be allowed to break the rules if they afterwards say it was just a joke.
Would your boss understand if you didn't do your job as a joke or a cop if you drove overspeed as a joke?
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So what kind of context makes simple enforcing of clear rules "power going to their head"?
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In this context your joke was clearly breaking the rules and you weren't banned for it but merely disabled for couple days. You're the one trying to make some kind of huge deal about this very simple thing instead of learning from your mistake. Been there, done that, just deal with it. :P
What about new users seeing these "jokes" all around, are they supposed to know any better that it's actually breaking the rules if they see it going on all the time unpunished? Would it be better for the community as a whole if old users are allowed to do break the rules but new users get punished for the exact same thing?
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This is the Internet. What people choose to express on the Net is liable to be misinterpreted due to the inability of others to correctly interpret the meaning conveyed and to infer whatever information is lacking. Most people who use the Net understand this and therefore use additional notations (e.g. emoticons) to convey emotion, tone, and context to what they write. "Give me the keys and I'll check them for you," contains none of that. No effort was made to clarify that the statement was to be taken as anything other than literal. No smiley face, no disclaimer, no follow-up explanation, ... Nothing.
No, but I think that taking words out of context is wrong.
No context was given. That is why the statement was taken at face value. You assume that everyone will understand it was a joke, but that is merely an assumption. One based on inference, individual experience, and personal bias, at that. You are assuming that others will interpret things as you do, and while that is a very human thing to do, it has no basis in either logic or reason.
As for the claim that "nobody says something like this and means it," I have 30 years of experience dealing with people who have said things like that and meant it.
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No, it's simple extrapolation of the invalid logic to demonstrate it more clearly.
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Nope it's a straw man fallacy. Making somebody appear to say something they never said. Logical fallacies are always bad arguments and make a person automatically lose a debate.
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No, extrapolating invalid logic in a single case to include more cases with the same invalid logic only helps to demonstrate the invalidity of the logic. So maybe stop using one and use actual logic instead?
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Your attempts to win arguments by yelling attack names like a pokemon are simple, yes. That doesn't make them right tho so unless you have some actual logical argument to share, please just stop.
You could've at least gone with something that actually matches the case a little like https://www.conservapedia.com/Fallacy_of_extrapolation
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Like I said, anybody who uses any fallacy automatically loses an argument. Just because you don't think you used a straw man doesn't mean you didn't use one.
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And like I said, anyone who just yells their attack name without any actual argument instantly loses. Just because you don't understand how extrapolation works doesn't mean it's not that.
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Written text doesn't have intonation, tempo, pitch and so on as voice does, so it could have been interpretted in both ways, so its pretty normal. Don't get worked up over it. Plus, inserting emoticons, and making it more obvious with more text could have hinted it was 100% a joke.
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Not surprised, that's why I barely comment nowdays. Welcome back :)
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My point is that he most likely wasn't actually breaking the rule of "begging," which is why a moderator shouldn't assume someone's intentions, when there are no solid reasons to believe the worst. It's actually more reasonable to assume he was joking, because, well, it was said in a straight forward funny way, implying that the OP may be gullible enough to fall for it (I mean, really, does this look like a scam to you? Scammers are usually more manipulative or sly than that, and don't usually do it out in the open like this, especially considering his Steamgifts stats. Rules are there so that you don't have to make baseless assumptions.
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It isn't even begging though. There's a difference with how he said it and saying "Can I have a key?"
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lol blank the identifying username but leave the identifying profile picture. sneaky boi.
Back on topic. In all honesty, I might have reacted in a similar fashion. Just because (repeating what others have mentioned) that people will see that behaviour and copy. After modding another gaming forum for a few years, you catch on to specific behaviours that people can and will exploit. It was an innocent enough comment though people will fall for those.
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It was not a rash decision, and I would have suspended him, too. People have the right to say really dumb things, but that does not exempt them from facing the consequences of their actions.
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Saying a "really dumb thing" isn't against your rules. It was a joke. Doesn't matter if you found it funny or not, he wasn't breaking any rules, because he wasn't begging. He didn't actually want the keys, he was just making a harmless joke. Do you think it's acceptable to stretch your own rules?
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Support has had a 0 tolerance policy on begging for a long time now. You would be surprised how much begging actually is done through jokes, or how many defend themselves with "it was just a joke" when they're clearly begging. So better to have a 0 tolerance policy on this, than to create an atmosphere were begging is okay.
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I don't have anything against a 0 tolerance policy on begging, as long as the rules on the topic are stated clearly. There's nothing in the rules that say you can't even joke about the matter. The rule says "no begging" - making a joke about begging is not the same as begging. If the mods are going to temporarily ban people simply for joking about it, when there's no indicator of ill intent, some people are going to get unjustly banned, and this causes frustration and divisiveness between mods and users. This is a slippery slope, and it's completely unnecessary (I'll get into why below). You have to judge things on a case-by-case basis, not categorizing everything as "begging." Context matters.
You talk about how many people are clearly begging. This case isn't "clearly begging," though (which is my entire point), and if you think it is, you have to provide a reason. "Clearly begging" is against the rules.
Awax was accused of begging, so what you're implying is that he was trying to scam the OP into lending him his keys and then not giving them back. Do you really not think you need some solid reason for believing that? It's literally either that, or he was merely joking. If he was merely joking, nothing bad could come out of it. I can't stress enough the importance of context, though. If he had said "give me the keys" instead of "give me the keys and I'll check them for you" then you could safely assume it to be actual begging, even if he were just joking.
Edit: By "you" I'm not only referring to you, Fnord, but also the moderators.
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How exactly does joking about it and being serious about it look different? One of these is a joke, one is serious, so read my mind and figure out which is which.
Give me the keys and I'll check them for you
or
Give me the keys and I'll check them for you
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Are you serious? I clearly gave an example of context in two similar ways that mean two different things, not the exact same wording...
"give me the keys and I'll check them for you" - the joke was that he was going to scam him, which got a fitting "LOL" response.
"give me the keys" - this doesn't imply a joke, at all...
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Nothing in it implied a joke other than assuming so or reading his mind like you can apparently do.
"give me the keys and I'll check them for you" not just begging but a scam to get keys for "checking"
"give me the keys" this is just begging so better than the one above
I can make up contexts and meanings for comments just as much as you can, but why would either be relevant to this simple case?
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So 2 people getting a joke somehow makes breaking rules OK? Can I make multiple bot accounts here if OP gets that it's just a joke?
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The point being that 'begging' is your interpretation, because you chose to take the words literally and refuse to see nuance or intention.
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Begging is the literal meaning of what he did, you got that right. Everything else is pure assumption or mind reading on top. So you're trying to argue that it's OK to break the rules as long as someone imagines there being the right nuances and intentions behind it?
I never said I took it seriously, but it's breaking the rules and you get punished for it, simple as that. Or if it helps all the people to better understand it, he got disabled for 4 days as a joke LOL.
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There are these things called logic and reasoning. Just because you're not willing to try and understand my point of view and address my points above, doesn't mean I'm making baseless assumptions.
You're arguing against making baseless assumptions. The fact that you don't understand the irony in that is pretty funny! :D Hint: Read my other comments, and don't just skim through them this time. If you're not willfully dishonest, then you'll understand my point of view (if you have the comprehension skills, that is).
You've clearly demonstrated, both above and below, that you're more interested in making ad-hominem attacks than addressing my points, so unless you're going to do the latter, I'm going to leave you with your drivel.
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Says he ignoring all logic and reasoning while making ad-hominem attacks. I understand your side perfectly and even agree with it in theory. It just has 0 relevance to how rules are enforced when there is 0 tolerance. To understand even basic logic you really should first look up what 0 tolerance means. Protip: it doesn't mean some tolerance if it can be assumed to be just a joke.
Begging was the literal thing happening there, anything else is assuming which you seem to be so fond of and then trying to pass your assumptions as logic, GG LOL.
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No need to believe when you got the logical meaning perfectly right. It means it doesn't matter one bit if joking or serious, since it would be tons of useless extra work for staff to go through each and every begging comment and try to figure out if serious or not. :)
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I hadn't heard anything about this zero tolerance policy until today. I'll quote myself: "I don't have anything against a 0 tolerance policy on begging, as long as the rules on the topic are stated clearly. There's nothing in the rules that say you can't even joke about the matter."
... "0 tolerance is 0 tolerance" - Sure. 0 tolerance against begging. This is why context means everything, because he wasn't actually begging, he was joking about begging. Again, if there's no tolerance against such things as jokes, that should be specified in the guidelines.
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No, kids should learn that "but but it's a meme" is not a valid excuse to break rules ever anywhere.
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You're still incapable of looking at this from both perspectives, aren't you? There's no such thing as actual jokes, right? Such nuance... Can you stop spamming my messages, please? I'll let you have the last word, since you crave it so much ;)
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No, I'm very qualified at looking at the joking perspective. Like I said been there, done that. Why are you so unwilling to even try to look at it from the rules perspective?
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Yeah I hate when those pesky mods don't allow me to break the rules as well. They should stretch them to allow me to break the rules because I'm clearly so important and only doing it as a joke.
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Did you even read my post? Please respond to my actual arguments. Like I said, he didn't break any rules.
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Since you clearly do not, here's some you can use:
"I can read minds and know what everyone means with every comment"
"I want to break rules and justify it later with saying it was a joke"
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Your attempts at demonizing me are ridiculous, ironic, and have no basis in reality...
- I'm arguing against assuming people's intentions, like I have stated several times. If you would actually read and try to understand what I've been saying, you would know that.
- You're still not explaining how he broke the rules. I've explained how what he did was not breaking the rules (again, respond to my actual arguments, or you have nothing but emotional outbursts).
- "I want to break rules?" Really? Give me one example where I have broke the rule against begging. Oh right, I haven't...
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Your attempts to claim I have no arguments when that's the case for you are ridiculous.
- So needing to assume the intentions were merely a joke is arguing against needing to assume?
- He broke the rules very clearly as explained above already. 0 tolerance
- I never said you did, but you clearly want to, why else would you argue about it?
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I'm arguing against assuming people's intentions
The most literal interpretation is that the user is asking to be given keys. That is a was a joke is an assumption.
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I get what you're saying, and it is indeed the most literal interpretation, but that doesn't mean it's the right interpretation, it just means you're unwilling to consider context, because of this zero tolerance policy against begging I now hear of. If this is an actual policy that you're enforcing, shouldn't it be documented in the guidelines? Right now it basically only tells us not to beg. I assume you take context like sarcasm, irony, etc into consideration and assuming good faith in many other areas, right?
Thanks for your input.
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Taking context into consideration leads to another set of issues. Where exactly should we draw the line ? How do we decide if it's a joke or not ?
When you have to start interpreting, it inevitably leads to inconsistencies. There are some things for which we don't really have a choice but to be subjective and interpret. This sometimes lead to inconsistencies or disagreements on how to handle a situation. So whenever possible, we try to avoid interpreting.
Consider also this : if a user makes a joke then someone actually gives them what they asked, how many people would clarify that it was a joke and refuse it ?
Now it's true that it could be emphasized in the guidelines, I can't disagree with that.
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I understand and appreciate that you guys have a lot of different tasks to do, so you're trying to keep things simple, and that's fine. I'm simply for transparency. I do believe making a little note about zero tolerance on certain issue(s) in the guidelines or elsewhere will prepare users better.
I do have my opinions on the matter, but no matter. I think I'll leave it at that.
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To add one last thing, I'm not claiming this is flawless, simply both ways have their downsides and this is what we went with (and again I have no argument against clarifying it in the guidelines, but that goes beyond my privileges).
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Can you find me even 1 site where the rules talk about breaking them as a joke?
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Actually he didn't. As I said in my other comment. "There's a difference with how he said it and saying "Can I have a key?"
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The difference is still imagined assumptions by the reader, nothing more. If anything he said it in a serious way trying to scam keys off instead of begging them to be given so it's much worse. See how assuming stuff works both ways?
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So then you're saying the moderators were wrong to assume?
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They didn't assume anything at all, that's the whole point. They didn't need to assume anything either because the case is very simple and clear. If something is forbidden by the rules, it's forbidden even as a joke, so where do you see this assuming going on?
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Yes, those are what make it anything other than what it literally is. You assume it's a joke, someone else assumes it's a scam, third someone assumes it's a conspiracy etc. None of these are any kind of relevant since the assumption is only in the head of the reader and no action by the staff should rely on those.
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The staff would be a reader too since they would have to read the comment first.
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But they don't have to make any assumptions, why is this difference between literal meaning of something and then the multitude of assumptions made about intention of that something so hard to get?
Literal = begging as in asking to be given something
Assumption 1 = joke
Assumption 2 = scam
Assumption 3 = conspiracy
Only first is valid for anything, rest are all as invalid as any other imaginary assumption people can come up with.
What people imagine they are doing = just joking
What they are actually doing = begging as a joke
What staff sees them doing = begging
If you had bothered to think about the extrapolation of what they actually want, not what they claim to want, you would have realized already that it would only lead to all rules being allowed to be broken as long as it's claimed to be a joke. If someone punches you in the face hard as a joke, do you think it was a punch or a joke? And if you think it was a punch, why is that when they claim it was a joke?
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"assumptions by the reader," So now moderators are suddenly not readers?
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Whoops... I responded to the wrong person. P
Have a friendly GIF, instead. )
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Saying a "really dumb thing" isn't against your rules.
It is if the really dumb thing you say violates the rules.
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Having a 0 tolerance begging policy is respectable
We have a zero tolerance policy indeed, to avoid users abusing jokes as a loophole to disguise begging and avoid misleading new users who might not realize it's a joke and believe begging is tolerated here.
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I get that. I hadn't heard about this policy before. It makes sense the way you put it, but the only downside to that is that some people are going to get punished for a harmless joke (unjustly because they have no way of knowing you're not allowed to joke about it).
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Despite it being Steam gifts nobody wants discussions overwhelmed with people asking for free stuff. There is a very fine line between harmless jokes and and people asking for free stuff and then saying it was a joke (which has happened a hell of a lot). It's harsh but I can understand moderation taking the line they do - and if people can't find the time to read the rules then maybe a few days holiday might help them out...
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- It is not "harmless" if it gives the appearance that "joke begging" is an acceptable thing to do.
- Anyone who went out of their way to make it absolutely clear that he was joking and that he did not actually want anything at all was merely given a warning not to joke about begging.
- Anyone who failed to do #2 ended up learning "the hard way" that some things are better left unsaid, and there are some jokes you just don't make. That is a lesson one normally learns from one's parents.
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i like the work u folks do, me ignoring the low number of staff... :P
but i dont see any begging... lets say it's not a joke then it would be a offered service with possible intention to scam...
im not here to discuss the decission... just curious why it's flaged as "begging"... :)
thanks for your time...
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lets say it's not a joke then it would be a offered service with possible intention to scam.... just curious why it's flaged as "begging"....
That is actually a good question, and one that should have been asked previously as part of this discussion. Let us assume, just for the moment, that the request was both serious and literal without any intent to scam. What was requested were game keys, and they were requested without remuneration. (If a price had been set, that would have been trading, which is also against the rules.) As begging is defined as asking for something "as a charity" (i.e. without remuneration), and what was sought were game keys, this is a clear violation of the Guidelines. Specifically, ...
"Do not beg users or developers for keys or gifts, whether in comments, or chat."
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This realy hepls me to understand, thank you very much for this...! :3
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If we assume that he was serious and the attempt was to get free keys, it's scamming which is much worse than begging.
Trading the keys for a service of checking them is trading.
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You seem to have overlooked the "without any intent to scam" part of my hypothetical situation.
Or are you providing a different situation as an example?
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Latter, the people who want the mods to assume this and that are missing the point that assuming can go both ways, from better to worse, so it's better to not assume the intention at all.
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- Sure, but in the mind of a user who has read the guidelines, but hasn't heard of this zero tolerance policy, which is a very strict approach of enforcing a policy, they might have to find out the hard way, which is the only unfortunate outcome I'm arguing here. I know there are pros to this policy. But like I say elsewhere, I've discussed this with TempeteJoachim, so we don't have to get more into that. I respect your policies.
- Sure, and I was only trying to be understanding of Awax's perspective.
- "There are some jokes you just don't make. That is a lesson one normally learns from one's parents." - That's a bit of an unreasonable comparison. Whether or not to joke about things is heavily based on opinions. Some parents will say "don't joke about this and that" while others will have more lenient opinions about it.
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That's a bit of an unreasonable comparison.
In what way is my parallel (as opposed to comparison) unreasonable? Common sense would dictate you don't joke about a bomb while in an airplane. Common sense would dictate you don't joke about having drugs in your car after being pulled over by the police. Common sense would dictate you don't call the Emergency number to report that NBC is killing your favorite show. There are countless situations where a joke---even a funny one---is simply not appropriate and can land you in a lot of trouble. Common sense would dictate you exercise caution when talking about a serious topic, and most of us learned to watch what we say by shooting our mouth off at the wrong time and suffering the consequences. Even comedians don't say everything that comes to mind.
For many of us, our parents warned us to "watch our mouths," but we didn't really "get it" until we learned it "the hard way." I understand Awax's perspective, but he was mistaken. My hope is that he has learned something from all of this and will avoid making the same mistake---with possibly serious consequences---in his future life.
It would seem that "common sense" is not so common, these days.
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"There are some jokes you just don't make. That is a lesson one normally learns from one's parents."
I don't know about you, but my parents certainly didn't tell me not to joke about rules and laws. Of course they teached me about common sense, though, and I don't think common sense dictates not to "joke beg," as long as you make it clear you're joking. To me the context indicate that he was most likely joking, but not to you. We disagree on the subject - that's fine. It's all about context, and the examples of context you gave are extreme and is a complete strawman argument. I never said I was all for jokes, no matter context, so please stop strawmanning what I'm saying.
It would seem that open mindedness and trying to understand other people's opinions is not so common these days. At least on the internet, anyway. Much easier to just alienate anyone who has differing opinions. See? I can do jabs like that, too. But what's the point? Let's just squash the beef? :) I mean that genuinely.
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It's all about context, and the examples of context you gave are extreme and is a complete strawman [sic] argument.
... It would seem you are confused as to what a "straw man argument" is and how it is used. Ignoring that, however, I would like to call your attention to the point I was making: "Common sense would dictate you exercise caution when talking about a serious topic..." You would seem to agree with this as you qualified your argument with "...as long as you make it clear you're joking." That has been the exact point of contention as far as the Mods are concerned. It was not made clear that Awax was joking, and even you clarified your impression as one of him "most likely joking." Again, we would seem to be in agreement on "the facts," while differing on what we consider an appropriate response. I believe that is due to me being a Mod rather than a regular user. Had I not been a Mod, I would most likely have ignored the post, but as a Mod, I would be remiss in my duty had I done so. Police do not spend their time trying to catch people running Stop signs, but they are required to respond when you do it right in front of them.
Let's just squash the beef?
That is a phrase with which I am not familiar. My guess is that you are suggesting we drop the subject and move on. Fine by me.
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Basically to set aside our differences, and agree to disagree.
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To much to read from other opinions, but for me it seems like a funny "who knows" beggar joke, just like when we want something but we use a joke first to use as recovery point. Ex. What you did! Hahaha. --- If he agreed with your "joke" i doubt that you would not accept the gifts because you were joking.
Anyway, the suspension was pretty hard just about that, i mean, you didn't used emoticons to reveal your joke but you used sarcastic-shady-humor, you didn't said: "Give me the keys because i want your games so much!" so the Mod used brute force in your 4-Pin!
Edit: Now i read something and understood that they'll not tolerate and jokes because it should be exploited. It makes perfect sense because people do that.
Please like my comment!
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this went from you asking if your games are region restricted to a serious talk about banning. free bumps! but i hope you figured it out for whatever your doing with the keys
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I don't clearly remember which month, but i bought the humble monthly with kerbal space and dead rising 4 in it. They keys are still with me but i'm unsure as to whether those keys are region restricted or not. The purchase was made in India.
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