Is gambling literally the devil?
Interesting and some good links (except Polygon, because my religion and my heart specialist forbid me from reading Polygon) on the matter.
Comment has been collapsed.
And others are talking about how t hey are being pressured by these sites with offers around the 15k to promote gambling in their channels
Pressured? Are they putting a gun to their heads?
Comment has been collapsed.
They are being offered huge amounts of money on a daily basis in order to promote this site. That in my book is pressuring someone. If they were having guns pointed to their heads, it would be forced.
Comment has been collapsed.
They can always say no. I get that it's a lot of money and that it would be hard to resist the temptation, but I personally would not want to do something like that. I just can't. Also, they agree to it themself, so now complaining that they are being "pressured" is kind of stupid in my opinion.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well maybe it's because English isn't my native language but I think the word "pressured" is different from "tempted".
Comment has been collapsed.
They are being offered huge amounts of money on a daily basis
The horror!
Comment has been collapsed.
That is no pressuring. Would you eat dog crap and lick a toilet seat top to bottom in a public restroom if I gave you a 1000 euros/dollars? You could always say no, right?!
Comment has been collapsed.
Considering that the wildest conspiracy theories put a few of the CS gambling sites as close to crime as being one the many fronts of the Russian mob's money-laundering operation (although I'm relatively sure they do that through the normal Steam market, plus it was almost proven that the store itself is used for obvious money laundering), that could even be true.
Could be true, but I doubt it, along with the supposedly 2.3 billion dollar moved with it. (Although that sum is enough to cover money laundering.)
Comment has been collapsed.
Correct me if I am wrong, but valve itself does not host any kind of gambling service? So fuck the whiny liberals bitching about it. Valve made a competitive game. People like to bet on competitive things, so betting services get created. Valve isnt responsible for what they do, OR who they do business with.
Comment has been collapsed.
Not gambling, its the same as a chinese grab bag. Could be crap, could be not crap, but its guaranteed to be something. And the opinion on what is crap is subjective. I might be happy opening a box and getting a skin I like, but isnt gonna make me an uber profit, and thereby consider that crap, to be not crap. Either way, you at least get crap. gambling implies a risk of getting nothing.
Comment has been collapsed.
You're paying for keys for items you could just buy anyway.
Comment has been collapsed.
Or you know, you could just.. not buy keys. Or open cases, its not a requirement.
Comment has been collapsed.
But the chances are you'll get something worse than if you'd have just kept the money to buy an item you actually wanted, if that's not gambling then what is?
Comment has been collapsed.
gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1.
play games of chance for money; bet.
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game; informalplay the ponies
"he started to gamble more often"
2.
take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
"the British could only gamble that something would turn up"
synonyms: take a chance, take a risk; More
So, I guess I can see how you feel it falls into definition 2. Still, I feel like theres a crucial piece of gambling missing, in that you are guaranteed to get something. You are buying a product, an unknown one, but theres the original box of crap from woot, lootcrate and its many copies since, and all sorts of other mystery box offers from all sorts of types of retailers, electronics, clothing, etc etc. No one considers those gambling. Why?, because they are buying SOMETHING, they just dont know what. So yes, there is a thrill aspect to it, and yes it is taking a risk which falls into definition 2. But they still get something.
Comment has been collapsed.
I think the difference is that those mystery boxes aren't main, available 24/7/365 source of income.
Otherwise casinos would get smart long time ago and start to offer "minimal bet $100, with every bet you get something" and would give people $1 keychains (or even something smaller), but in losing that $1 per bet they would not be considered gambling-sites, which means less taxes, regulations and controls.
Comment has been collapsed.
Do you also think Chuck E Cheese is also encouraging gambling because their games spit out tickets depending on how well you do? Which can be turned in for prizes?
Comment has been collapsed.
Everyone knows that places like Chuck E. Cheese are casinos for kids...
To be honest, I'm not sure how they get away with it, really. Maybe the parent consent has to do with it, though.
Comment has been collapsed.
Kids' lotteries are a thing at many places. Only thing is, a parent has to be present and they pay for it.
Comment has been collapsed.
But the range what you could get varies from 0,04 € to 300 € or more and it literally uses the same user interface like a slotmachine. For me that suffices to make it gambling. Not that I'm strictly anti-gambling, I love playing Texas Hold Em poker but it has to be regulated and currently gamling in and revolving around CS GO isn't.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes, but valve doesnt require you to buy keys to open cases in the first place, nothing you can get out of them, increases your odds of winning. So I still dont see the encouragement part of it.
Comment has been collapsed.
I always thought a huge majority of people don't open cases to actually use the skins but in hopes of getting something valuable to sell. But I guess if nobody used them there wouldn't be any demand and prices wouldn't be that high so at least some people must use them. But I highly doubt that's the main motivation for most people.
For me everything involving CS GO gambling is almost as shady as Daily Fantasy.
Comment has been collapsed.
The range varies? Only because of crazy people buying skins for crazy prices, still not Valve's fault.
Comment has been collapsed.
Ok. So if you say that's not Valves intention I assume the chance to get a Karambit or other sought after, expensive knifes is exactly the same like an 8 cent submachine gun skin, right ?
Comment has been collapsed.
Of course chance is not the same, but it doesn't mean that people are forced by Valve to pay for these skins so much money. It is their own choice and Valve has nothing to do with it.
Comment has been collapsed.
can't stand them lib---ds either-they have lost touch with reality
Comment has been collapsed.
So fuck the whiny liberals bitching about it.
I find it amusing how some people always blame liberals whenever something they don't agree with happens.
Being anti-gambling goes against libertarian views and as such I think most liberals would want gambling legal but regulated and taxed. Conservatives (considering they are more religious) on the other hand are far more likely to be anti-gambling as they find it immoral and sinful.
Therefore if someone is against gambling he is more likely to be a conservative rather than a liberal. I say more likely because in the end there are liberals who are anti-gambling and there are conservatives who are pro-gambling.
Comment has been collapsed.
Funny: isn't Nevada run by Republicans since the turn of the millennium though?
Comment has been collapsed.
Was waiting to be called out on this. Thanks for being intelligent, and not staying silent in the face of obvious bullshit.
Comment has been collapsed.
fuck the whiny liberals bitching about it
That's a bit of an oxymoron in many ways, but traditionally it has been the conservatives that oppose things such as gambling... even then it is a bit of an over generalization since it isn't all conservatives, but moreover the religious right.
Comment has been collapsed.
Chibi beat you to it, but I said that just to be a troll, Im glad you guys both called me out on it.
(edit) just looked at the timestamps, you actually said it first.
Comment has been collapsed.
"valve is being sued"
and its gona fail hard.
I used to watch h3h3 but they didnt bother to check what valve is actually doing, they lied or missintrepted in favor of drama, and thats SHIT
What about giving your kids real education and show them that gambling is bad?
Comment has been collapsed.
This is probably going to be a hot topic on forum this week :D
I follow both 3clickPhilip and Warowl and what I can say that I do understand 3clickPhilip if he agrees to get sponsored and I take my hats off to Warowl for not "selling out" and for sticking to his principles.
Comment has been collapsed.
Fucking finally! The whole gambling that emerged from those fucking skins has to stop.
Comment has been collapsed.
Probably. I think they need an API key to use the steam login thing (might be wrong though), which means that Valve at least knows of the sites existance. But to say that Valve is to blame....
Comment has been collapsed.
Yeah, there is some responsibility, but I don't think that there is much to blame on valve in this case. It's really the owners of the site that are in the wrong here. Valve has not much say in the site itself. They can probably retract the API key if something bad is going on, but other then that, I don't think there is much that Valva can do.
Comment has been collapsed.
It boosts their own CS:GO market scene, one of the main incomes of Valve. They may not encourage it, but they actively try to act like as if they never heard of anything like that. Plausible deniability can go really far in the US courts, especially when it is a corporate entity. And I'm not sure if the EU can squeeze their dicks for it either.
Comment has been collapsed.
Why the hell is he suing Valve instead of the three gambling sites mentioned in the suit?! I assume he's not suing the sites because they are outside of the US jurisdiction, so then my question would be... why is he admitting to being involved in illegal gambling himself?!!!
(IANAL, bold emphasis mine.)
From the "Parties, Jurisdiction, and Venue" section of the suit (page 4)...
11.
Plaintiff Michael John McLeod is a resident and citizen of Fairfield County, Connecticut and a customer of Valve since 2014. He is an on-line player of CS:GO and has entered into wagering as described infra. Specifically, Plaintiff purchased CS:GO from Defendant, purchased numerous Skins, gambled them and lost money, and knew that he could cash out the value of the Skins for real money prior to losing them while gambling.
Except that's not true, at least, not via anything that Valve actually supports (Steam Wallet is not cash, and can not be converted back to cash).
And further, in the Steam Subscriber Agreement (again, bold emphasis mine)...
("Subscribers" and "Subscriptions" are defined earlier in the Agreement)
D. Trading and Sales of Subscriptions Between Subscribers
Steam may include one or more features or sites that allow Subscribers to trade, sell or purchase certain types of Subscriptions (for example, license rights to virtual items) with, to or from other Subscribers (“Subscription Marketplaces”). An example of a Subscription Marketplace is the Steam Community Market. By using or participating in Subscription Marketplaces, you authorize Valve, on its own behalf or as an agent or licensee of any third-party creator or publisher of the applicable Subscriptions in your Account, to transfer those Subscriptions from your Account in order to give effect to any trade or sale you make.
Valve may charge a fee for trades or sales in a Subscription Marketplace. Any fees will be disclosed to you prior to the completion of the trade or sale.
If you complete a trade, sale or purchase in a Subscription Marketplace, you acknowledge and agree that you are responsible for taxes, if any, which may be due with respect to your transactions, including sales or use taxes, and for compliance with applicable tax laws. Proceeds from sales you make in a Subscription Marketplace may be considered income to you for income tax purposes. You should consult with a tax specialist to determine your tax liability in connection with your activities in any Subscription Marketplace.
You understand and acknowledge that Valve may decide to cease operation of any Subscription Marketplace, change the fees that it charges or change the terms or features of the Steam Subscription Marketplace. Valve shall have no liability to you because of any inability to trade Subscriptions in the Steam Trading Marketplace, including because of discontinuation or changes in the terms, features or eligibility requirements of any Subscription Marketplace.
You also understand and acknowledge that Subscriptions traded, sold or purchased in any Subscription Marketplace are license rights, that you have no ownership interest in such Subscriptions, and that Valve does not recognize any transfers of Subscriptions (including transfers by operation of law) that are made outside of Steam.
...plus, on the Steam Trading support page, Valve specifically discourages what this dude did...
What are the best ways to avoid getting scammed?
- [...]
- Do not trade items outside of the trade window. If another user requests that you do, they will likely scam you. Always insist to trade within the trade window in Steam. Wallet credit and money cannot be traded or added to the trade window.
- [...]
What trades should I avoid?
- Do not trade for anything that cannot be added into the trade window within Steam. The most common examples of these scenarios are the following:
- Trading items/gifts for money outside of the Steam Community market. You cannot add Wallet credit, PayPal, gift cards or any form of money into the trade window.
- [...]
...so again, why the hell is he suing Valve?!
Hilariously, his suit will most likely just end up getting his account banned for violating the Subscriber Agreement. :P
I do hope they settle the case by Valve simply revoking the API keys for those sites though.
Comment has been collapsed.
Steam wallet is not cash, but it's money nonetheless.
Comment has been collapsed.
Due to that whole me-not-being-a-lawyer thing, I informally used the term "cash" instead of US Legal Tender or some such more clear definition.
Looking up legal definitions of things, I can't pin down for certain a legal definition of "real money" that would specifically categorize it as being legal tender, so the wording of the suit may have a way out there, and try to claim that Steam Wallet is "real money" (I'd find that debatable, but it'd be up to legal definitions that I'm not aware of to decide). And really, I'm assuming from the phrasing of "cash out" and "real money" that the plaintiff truly meant US legal currency, which, again, you can't get back to within Valve's system (excepting refunds of direct purchases of Steam Wallet credit).
Comment has been collapsed.
I am not a lawyer either, and I don't know the legal definition of money. But the semantic definition of money is "something that can be exchanged for goods and services" that's why I consider Steam Wallet (which you can buy games with ) money for all practical purposes.
I am sorry if I came up wrong in my answ3r.
Comment has been collapsed.
Your bold emphasis in the ToS only means Valve isn't responsible for trading game licenses outside Valve itself, as it is just a distributor in these cases. But with CS:GO, they are the "manufacturer". This case is similar as if you would sue an arms company for putting a minigun on the market and someone killed your family with it. Sounds crazy, but half the internet is full of crazy British type laws and rulings.
Comment has been collapsed.
Could there be a class-action against those scumbag streamers who were pretending to win big on their own gambling website?
Comment has been collapsed.
Valve has literally nothing to do with this. There are thousands of sites(including this one) with the Steam login button. That doesn't mean Valve is responsible for every site just because it has a Steam button on it.
There should be something done about the gambling sites but suing Valve is just throwing more money away because you will lose. Focus on the ones behind the sites and not the people who created the game.
Comment has been collapsed.
That's like suing FIFA for shady practices used by some betting company. I don't see how Valve can get in trouble from this.
Comment has been collapsed.
And how do minors manage to bet on those companys since most countries would require you to have reached certain age before you are allowed to do so?
Comment has been collapsed.
As far as I know (and at least in my region), legal gambling (poker, betting, lottery etc) websites require ID information, valid CC and / or a photo with you holding that ID to prove that you're an adult before allowing you to use the website. Still, I don't see how this is Valve's fault in here.
Comment has been collapsed.
Where's the NO option? Only the devil is literally the devil, kiddo..
Comment has been collapsed.
Not spam. Related:
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/VCELx/deception-lies-and-csgo
Comment has been collapsed.
Interesting how the same people who said G2A is to blame for the stolen keys debacle are saying Valve is not to blame for the CS:GO gambling stuff.
Personally, I would say Valve bears responsibility because it literally does nothing to manage it. If you want to make millions of dollars making your game an E-Sport then make sure that your players are not supporting illegal activities. League of Legends banned G2A sponsorships, other traditional sports crackdown hard on gambling. People let off Valve to easy for most of the stuff they pull ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Comment has been collapsed.
Am I the only one that thinks gambling and betting with cs:go skins is ok? Sure there should be age restrictions for sure but adults need to able to do whatever they want with their own money. Sure the youtubers and streamers should be legit and not fake this stuff or at least place some sort of disclaimer at the beginning of their videos for the people who aren't smart enough to figure out it's all staged. I for one have made roughly $1500 beginning from absolutely nothing and having spent nothing with cs:go betting and gambling. So I would like to continue betting/gambling without too much restrictions.
Comment has been collapsed.
Me: watches the videos
Wow that's... pretty rough. I... I wonder what other people think about this? It'd be interesting to have a constructive conversation about thi-
- reads comments -
I've been on the internet for a decade now, why do stupid ignorant biased comments still surprise me. Like how do I not expect this. I have too much faith in people to be reasonable.
Comment has been collapsed.
I have the same problem, for some reason I always expect to find reasonable people on the internet, but usually get frustrated/angry when I don't. That's why I usually try to avoid this stuff, speaking of which, I'm going to leave this thread before I get ticked off (even though I don't really care too much about this).
Comment has been collapsed.
You know, there's betting, and then there's pure casino gambling - i'm strictly against the latter.
It's a loss game, and no strategy ever will help you gain any sort of skill and edge, but it's advertised as "get rich fast" scheme. Oh, and then there's the whole sponsored wins, which basically screws over some poor soul.
I think those sites were once an interesting idea, but it went from "some fun with skins" to "get scammed in a second".
Valve is not responsible for this, but they sadly watched it happening for way too long.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yay.
Hopefully something will finally be done about all of these terrible scam groups and websites. Every day there seem to be more and more of them popping up.
Comment has been collapsed.
The CSGO scene, the community.. it just has always turned me off the game.
I like FPS and I own the game, but haven't played it much. It just seems so.. toxic? It's one of the playerbases I'd rather not interact with.
Comment has been collapsed.
Ehh, it's not like anyone is being forced to bet on anything. I know a few people that use various CSGO betting sites and enjoy it. The deception by the streamers is pretty shitty though. Don't really see any culpability on Valve's part.
Comment has been collapsed.
And the false wins? And the part of underage gambling?
Those guys earned millions by tricking gullible children into this crap.
I just hope this won't affect betting sites too much, and there's some sort of middle ground, for those who are old enough to do as they please.
Comment has been collapsed.
On the CS:GO scene.
valve is being sued for facilitating underage gambling
Several streamers are involved in really shady practices when it comes to CS:GO gambling sites.
And others are talking about how t hey are being pressured by these sites with offers around the 15k to promote gambling in their channels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0TXqBwjVh0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he6lsWPiGM4&feature=youtu.be&t=13m12s
Your two cents?
Comment has been collapsed.