Would you approve of "Add Game to List" reports not counting into the daily 20 reports limit ?
I'm guessing the daily limit is in place not to overwhelmed an already overwhelmed support team but tbh if there's already a massive queue of things to be done, it doesn't matter if there are other things at the end of the queue.
And it shouldn't be up to the users who are making reports, in order to help, to have to hold on to their reports for days and have to manage that on top of everything else.
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The limit could always be lowered for the other categories after lifting it for game reports. The thing is that it wouldn't even change all that much, whether we're forced to split our reports through multiple days or not. It's just an obstacle... if you're not discouraged afterwards.
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I agree. And it's not really fair to put the burden on the users who are trying to help just because support is overwhelmed.
After all, reports are supposed to help support.
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Just have a single ticket open and edit games into it.
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Users shouldn't put more as one game per ticket, if possible.
That is how, some, mods want it to be done.
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In the last ticket that mod looked at had 4 games and they didn't complain. The ticket before that had 2.
Current one has over 30.
If they want more order in those tickets, they should bug cg about it. Not tying those tickets directly to games seems like a bad design.
Currently the "Add Game to List" ticket is the same free form as "Other".
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https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/qw1oM/lift-the-daily-limit-for-add-game-reports#Ga4eSkG
Yes, they should have, for everyone available, clear infos how such tickets should happen.
I think the screenshot show that i have a lot of experience but i gave, mostly, up at some point (1 year+ ago).
It's wasted time when mods aren't able or willing to check, as example, barter.vg for the freebies and bundles on a daily basis. Which would reduce the need for tickets by 90% and with it the spend time of users, without that the mods would have more work.
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The limit, enforced for the add game tickets too, was annoying in the past when i often hit it only from reporting the daily new games that appeared in the shady RU shops. And it is still annoying.
But i don't expect that something will change, not from interest how "loud" were are here in a discussion.
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i can imagine that the limit isnt set per ticket category, but is universally set for all tickets regardless of category.
dont know how easy it would be to change if this was the case.
but i agree with your suggestion
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Are you asking for relevant games to be added so you can do giveaways, or is it for some other reason?
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More about reporting bundles or fake games like overpriced asset flips and other CV farms
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fake games like overpriced asset flips and other CV farms
We have a place for that already. Use this thread and you can ultimately report more things per day.
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And no mod look into the thread to handle the games. They want for each game a ticket.
I had PMs with them, so i know it very well.
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Only telling you seems like a strange way to communicate......doesn't it?
Why not make a more public announcement? Why not add it to the FAQ or guidelines?
Perhaps you misunderstood, or there is some context that is lacking?
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Perhaps you misunderstood, or there is some context that is lacking?
No.
It is EXACTLY what i wrote.
Without the tickets, prefered 1 for each game, nothing happens.
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Without the tickets, prefered 1 for each game, nothing happens.
Did they tell you that? or did you draw a conclusion from watching the results?
It's just bizarre that they tell you but don't write it down anywhere.
This thread has been up for a year or more...
A non trivial amount of hours are put into maintain the list.
And they just watch us waste our time and not say anything? Doesn't make sense.
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I know you don't mean it bad but it is annoying to repeat myself so many times.
Yes, this is what they told me.
Off course not all mods and the chance is there that other mods could handle it, maybe, when it is different too.
Yes, because of the list i contacted them, because i thought the list is great to reduced the mods workload and should be handled MUCH faster.
And yes, "they let us waste our time" was my thoughts to it too.
I informed some that contributed to the list and they made then 1 by 1 tickets.
But most of them gave up with it because after months still only a handful of their 100 - 200 tickets got handled.
It feels for them like wasted time (too).
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Valve clearly doesn't care about it, and that makes the task Sisyphean.
But you may do whatever you like with your spare time. I hope it makes you happy.
I wish you well.
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I know you don't mean it bad but it is annoying to repeat myself so many times.
My intent isn't to annoy, it just didn't make much sense to me.
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What you probably haven't noticed is that we get 1 public announcement per 5 years :D
Sorry if I missed 1 or in the in between years but it wouldn't change much now would it?
Let alone from mods..
It is known that most mods wait for a ticket since they have so much stuff to do (while others outright don't care at all to do anything) that adding on their own extra work isn't really realistic.
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It is known. But it isn't written?
Why not write it down?
This thread has been up for a year or more...
A non trivial amount of hours are put into maintain the list.
And they just watch us waste our time and not say anything? Doesn't make sense.
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I answered below. Yes, almost nobody looks at the list others than members. People that do send tickets, already told you what mods expect. Why the mods don't answer? Good luck asking them and getting a response. I'm not one here to tell you this
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I didn't even know this was a thing, I just assumed that games were somehow known once they were added to Steam (if I'm understanding correctly).
If so I don't think there should be a daily limit necessarily, but if you take away the limit I think you also need a way to prevent duplicates, like 'This game has been requested already' or similar, so you don't have a bunch of people creating tickets for the same game suddenly. (this may already be a thing, I dunno)
Anyway, hopefully it's at least taken under consideration, as you said if someone's willing to give their time I don't see any reason to refuse.
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Although the only time I ever hit that limit was for requesting a new winner on a multiple copies ga, I don't think the reports you speak of should count towards the 20 limit.
IF for whatever reason there ISN'T a system already in place for adding tickets below the same game title, they should add it. Like this, if say 30 users report the same game, only 1 should take action and the rest should be closing on auto along with it.
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And the auto closing tool would know which of the tickets would have the most detailed/best infos? ;)
Mods can search if multiple tickets exist for game XYZ.
It will, maybe, sound hard but if the mods would add the freebies and bundles when they appear, as example, on barter.vg then they would have a much lower amount of tickets that could be double.
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Well.. No :P But they could read them regardless :D
Ok, I understand what you mean :P I didn't say my thinking was perfect but you get the idea, something to group the tickets for easier access IF it doesn't exist (I wouldn't know)
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Yes.
Grouping them together, if it isn't already the case, would be for sure helpful.
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No, or did you think each one that create a ticket write then somewhere in the discussions "i created a ticket for game XYZ" ?
This would never work and it isn't the responsibility of the users to do such extra work.
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This would never work
- Number the games on the list.
- Determine the number of volunteers for the day.
- Assign each person a block of 20 games, by number, to report.
- Each volunteer reports their assigned games and reports this back to the others.
- Repeat
and it isn't the responsibility of the users to do such extra work.
It isn't the responsibility of anyone to do these things.
This is a free service that doesn't owe us anything.
If people want this to happen, they will organize and do the work. If they don't want it to happen, then they will not.
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People already do the work amd nothing happens. As they already told you. If you are expecting an answer here from mods, I'm guessing it will be a long wait
"They don't owe us anything" -> "nobody forced them to become mods" -> insanity circle
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People already do the work and nothing happens. As they already told you.
Based on your other comments, you are reporting games you find problematic. And that you hit a daily limit.
My intent was to show you a way to organize liked minded individuals and contribute to the health of the community.
If you are expecting an answer here from mods, I'm guessing it will be a long wait
I don't need anything from the mods. The facts of the matter are very clear.
If they want me to know something, they will tell me. If they want everyone to know something, they will tell everyone.
I like this website and have only sincere admiration for those operating it.
"They don't owe us anything" -> "nobody forced them to become mods" -> insanity circle
Saying "nobody forced them to become mods" doesn't invalidate my statement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the implication you are making is that they owe you something because they accepted the posi9tion. That couldn't be further from the truth.
This is a free service and there is a clear hagiarchy.
- The owner(s)
- Those they delegate power to.
- Everyone else.
Patreon donators get certain privileges, but that doesn't include formalized power over others.
Perhaps there is a staff member code of conduct, but again, it isn't something that we, everyone else, can enforce.
You mentioned insanity. I resent the accusation, but I don't think you meant it as a direct insult. So no worries. Just please refrain from doing it again.
This is a cut and paste that I put on all of my giveaways:
If you want to help curb problematic games:
- Leave a negative review anywhere you can. Metacritic is a great place to start since it's used as a grey-market validation method. You do not need to own the game to do this.
- Report the game on this SG discussion thread. It will be nominated to be reduced to zero CV by SG mods.
- Report the game to the mods directly using the report tool.
- Report the game on Steam.
- Tweet @Steam or @Steam_Support.
- Email Gabe Newell, at gaben@valvesoftware.com. He, or an aid, actually reads his email. He even responds sometimes.
- Use any other method you can think of to contact Valve.
Perhaps once you hit the 20 report limit, you could try these other options.
Either that or find liked minded individuals that would be willing to organize as I described above.
I wish you well
Edit: I seem to have confused you with OP. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.
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Edit: I seem to have confused you with OP. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.
Yes, you confused me with OP but no worries.
But still, I'd like to reply to some of the things you mentioned
My intent was to show you a way to organize liked minded individuals and contribute to the health of the community.
And I already told you that people already do that. The thread doesn't work and instead of asking from users, who have even less of an "obligation" to help the site vs the "obligation" the mods have, you should consider that fixing the ladder is more beneficial.
Saying "nobody forced them to become mods" doesn't invalidate my statement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the implication you are making is that they owe you something because they accepted the posi9tion. That couldn't be further from the truth.
This is a free service and there is a clear hagiarchy.
The owner(s)
Those they delegate power to.
Everyone else.
Patreon donators get certain privileges, but that doesn't include formalized power over others.
Perhaps there is a staff member code of conduct, but again, it isn't something that we, everyone else, can enforce.
And nothing of the above invalidates mine. "Nobody forced them to do something they can't/don't have time for/wan't/you name it". They could leave it up to somebody who could/wanted/was better/blah blah blah.
Yes, it's a free site to use in the sense that we are not paying a subscription to be here. It doesn't mean the site doesn't gain anything from us. And don't go into the "if you don't like it, the door is there" route.. Same can be said about anything.
Btw, why are you admiring them so much if they do nothing or too little? Especially since we can't enforce anything and you seem unwilling to try for a change as to not offend them? (yet still propose going outside of the site to influence things on it? -> your "if you want to help curb problematic games" list)
https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/kFcdgyd
You are even doubting yourself here https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/FJ9dNpC which is what most of my previous reply is all about.
You mentioned insanity. I resent the accusation, but I don't think you meant it as a direct insult. So no worries. Just please refrain from doing it again.
What accusation? I'm saying that this circle of those 2 statements simply has no end -> "They don't owe us anything" -> "nobody forced them to become mods" -> insanity circle = trapped in a loop with no end (how else would you call it?)
And no it wasn't aimed at you. It was for those 2 sentences being stuck forever in a game of back and forth. Is this better perhaps?
PS. You can reply and the comment in which you confused me with OP https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/hfumNq4
Since it's a responce to this "If people want this to happen, they will organize and do the work. If they don't want it to happen, then they will not." that you wrote above.
Why are you so against such a change though?
It doesn't hurt anyone, let alone those mods that actually want to work on the big list. Imo, it would be easier to have all info neatly chategorized than a neverending thread that you need to keep looking to see what changed.
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You don't have to continue the conversation.
But this isn't nothing more than an effort to try and understand how you think. I'm trying to understand your reasoning in your posts, nothing more, nothing less.
Regarding this not being just an SG problem: We are in SG though in a thread about allowing more tickets. So while you are right about them, it's also off topic and I don't see the connection. As you wrote it earlier, it's like asking steam to delist the game because it's an asset flip (and maybe even more - data miner and so on) in order to lower the amount of tickets, aka like saying "they then wouldn't be needing to take action for 0 CV bcz the game wouldn't exist".
If you meant sometihng else and want to continue the conversation, I'll be here if you reply.
Blacklists don't interest me. Mine is minimal and it takes more than a simple difference in points of view.
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You don't have to continue the conversation.
But this isn't nothing more than an effort to try and understand how you think. I'm trying to understand your >reasoning in your posts, nothing more, nothing less.
I felt like it was an attempt to portray me as inconsistent or question if my motives were genuine.
But you deny that, so I can continue on that basis.
As far as inconsistency, there are inconsistencies because during discussions because my opinion changes or my message is clarified. It's why I participate in discussions on topics that interest me, it's part of learning. I don't feel it uncessisary to go back and edit previous posts to reflect my current stance and message. The work would be never-ending.
Is there an inconsistency in my points that is confusing? I don't think my motivations or thinking are relevant to the discussion. But if there is confusion as to what I am trying to say or a conflict between statements, I will happily rectify that.
Regarding this not being just an SG problem: We are in SG though in a thread about allowing more tickets. So while you are right about them, it's also off topic and I don't see the connection. As you wrote it earlier, it's like asking steam to delist the game because it's an asset flip (and maybe even more - data miner and so on) in order to lower the amount of tickets, aka like saying "they then wouldn't be needing to take action for 0 CV bcz the game wouldn't exist".
You said in a previous post:
Btw, why are you admiring them so much if they do nothing or too little? Especially since we can't enforce anything and you seem unwilling to try for a change as to not offend them? (yet still propose going outside of the site to influence things on it? -> your "if you want to help curb problematic games" list)
https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/kFcdgyd
You are even doubting yourself here https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/FJ9dNpC which is what most of my previous reply is all about.
(Bold emphasis is mine)
I felt like there was an accusation that I was trying to manipulate the site from the outside. I wanted to clarify that I felt that it was a greater issue.
like saying "they then wouldn't be needing to take action for 0 CV bcz the game wouldn't exist".
Valve has paid employees and contractors that are paid to take care of games like this. If they remove them, and this help us here. It's a win for us because it's less load on the moderators, improves the site quality, and protects the integrity of the CR system. It's a win for them because those problematic games are not something they want on their store for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with us.
Frankly any action by Valve against these games is a win for the whole community.
Have they removed these games? yes.
Will they do so in the future? yes.
Does using the official means of communication with Valve help them do this? Yes.
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I felt like there was an accusation that I was trying to manipulate the site from the outside. I wanted to clarify that I felt that it was a greater issue.
No. I said it reads like you are saying "Try to fix an SG problem by going outside of SG for the solution in order to not annoy the mods".
Since the topic is about tickets and this started from not creating extra work for the mods (something you mentioned somewhere above and then continued with the thread about games) and then derailing to asset flips being awful for steam (I agree to this), my reply that you quoted makes sense.
So, back to tickets.. Imo they should allow more per day because the users make the work for them and they just have to look in 1 place. In the list you gave they have to sort through it and keep checking what's new. From other user experiences this was explained.
In regards to why the mods don't announce or why members do that list if they don't look at it, I can only guess. You should ask them. And I'm not being ironic. I'm not a mod and I also don't make reports but I see no downside to this in the current system SG uses.
As far as asset flips go, it would be better if you created a topic for that because in the context of this conversation it is totally off topic and -as you saw- confusing.
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No. I said it reads like you are saying "Try to fix an SG problem by going outside of SG for the solution in order to not annoy the mods".
Since the topic is about tickets and this started from not creating extra work for the mods (something you mentioned somewhere above and then continued with the thread about games) and then derailing to asset flips being awful for steam (I agree to this), my reply that you quoted makes sense.
Well as I have told you, that was not my intent. I'm sorry for any confusion on that subject. But I have explained why I said such things.
I didn't mean to derail anything. And if it is a off-topic point, simply don't address it. But at the time I felt it was a valid answer to what you had said.
Valve solicits reports of such games. They act on those reports. There is no downside to working the problem from that end as well as this end. it's a win-win
In the list you gave they have to sort through it and keep checking what's new...
If the issue is speed and convince, the mods could simply start at the top of the existing and work their way down. Just like in ticket form, but it would be a lot less clicks and windows. I presume the modding interface is web based and opening many tickets would be inefficient. But that's just speculation.. Neither of us are mods, so we don't know the best way to do it. I'm sure they are aware of the issue, and several others, and are taking appropriate steps.
Speaking specifically of the list and not the discussion thread responses itself. There is enough on that list to keep anyone busy for a very long time. I don't think your criticism of it is valid, because there would not need to check for new posts unless the existing list is clear. In fact I'm sure it could be easily copied to a google doc.
In regards to why the mods don't announce or why members do that list if they don't look at it, I can only guess. You should ask them. And I'm not being ironic. I'm not a mod and I also don't make reports but I see no downside to this in the current system SG uses.
It's a hypothetical. I don't need it answered. It doesn't make sense to me that they would act in the way you describe. The question is a way of suggesting that there might be another explanation for what you see. I have offered a couple of reasons why, I don't see the need to repeat them here. I didn't intend to cause confusion.
As far as asset flips go, it would be better if you created a topic for that because in the context of this conversation it is totally off topic and -as you saw- confusing.
A very popular topic already exists. I have linked it elsewhere in this discussion. I don't see any need to make additional discussion topics on it. Those that need to know are aware of the problem and the existence of the list.
I'm sure that those responsible for such things do what they can.
I only brought it up because, as I explained earlier, I was under the impression that you were trying to say that I was going outside SG to influence it and that was in some way a bad thing. (Which by the way, if that results in a positive outcome for everyone involved, why is it an issue regardless?) In the past people have commented on my giveaways accusing me of various goals when giving away keys the felt were problematic. The cut and paste I use addresses those. And as a result of these conversations I have updated it to encourage the users to report the games to SG staff using the support tool. Previously I wasn't aware that was an acceptable way to report them as there is not a relevant support reason in the pull down menu. That combined with the existence of the thread...
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I had edited my reply so that it didn't resemble the origional. So I deleted the previous one and posted the final reply below.
(yet still propose going outside of the site to influence things on it? -> your "if you want to help curb problematic games" list)
https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/kFcdgyd
I want to clarify that the problem is not just a SG problem. Those games are not just asset flips for scamming customers. They are used for lots of other things I don't approve of. I wasn't really aware of how bad it was until I entered into this community. It's been very eye opening. Personally I don't have the energy to do those things, but I compiled the list so that those who felt inclined would have some options.
I am advocating that people take direction action against those games they find problematic, not specifically because they are a problem on SG. But because they are problem in the greater world of Steam.
However,
I feel like your posts have moved from frank discussion to borderline personal attacks.
Please, if you would like. have the last word.
I do not wish to continue this conversation.
I wish you well. I haven't blacklisted you, nor do I intend to. This isn't grounds for that.
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https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/JxDH4fP notification purposes.. (+I don't like deleting posts and copy-pasting elsewhere) you edited and deleted so frequently I ended up hitting the submit comment button 15 sec after you deleted it
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I'd like to address one thing you said:
it would be easier to have all info neatly chategorized than a neverending thread that you need to keep looking to see what changed.
This organized and categorized list already exists. It is linked to in the thread for that purpose. Take a look at the body of OP for a link.
edit: This is that list.
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Don't they get the same search field that we do on the left though? I get it that they lack tools and so forth, but I'd expect them to at least be on the same level as users who create reports. :v
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There's been a mass-voting for "No" some time later. Is anyone willing to give any counterarguments?
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I didn't vote, but apart from the potential abuse issue you mentioned, they haven't cleared the current backlog, so adding more does not improve the situation. For context, I have a five month old ticket asking for a package to be added to the game list so I could create a GA for it.
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And many tickets wait much longer. So we're supposed to ignore every new fix or addition and just forget about it?
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Sure, if you care, you'll do that. But why? What does it change to have this limit?
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If you don't care, why are you making them? That's rhetorical. I don't see the point in continuing this conversation. I didn't make the limits, but I assume it was to stop people spamming them. I'm sure you could work that out for yourself.
Error. You have reached my care limit.
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Where does all that come from? I'm sorry if my replies seemed aggressive or something. They weren't meant to be.
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I'm just saying that I have no further insight into this than you do. You asked why some people would be against it, and I gave my opinion on why that might be. I don't have a strong opinion on it one way or the other. There's nothing more for me to add.
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Tell you what, I'll refund your membership fee.
Seriously though.
My guess is that it's too easy for bad actors to abuse the ticket system if there isn't a limit. And yes like you said further up, those users can be disciplined.... However that discipline takes time and effort that could be used for more useful things. Even if they are all bogus, logging in and seeing 100+ tickets.. it sucks.
Remember Moderators are volunteers who do thankless work. Make their life hard, and they stop volunteering. Certain accommodations are helpful in retaining volunteers.
There is also the idea that someone might crapflood the report system to render it unusable.
I just don't see an upside to raising the limit.
IMHO, If you are serious about getting this stuff updated, find a group of like minded people and delegate who should report what per day. Teamwork is cool and good.
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Omitting the "thankless volunteering" platitudes, you do bring a fair point of view. Thanks for sharing.
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They aren't platitudes. Sincerely. Volunteering for something like this? It's not fun.
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Damn, God's work, alright... You don't waste a single second not sugarcoating the staff's work all over the forums. Okay, tell me how we should thank the mods (and cg) if volunteering our own time writing reports for giant, neglected backlogs isn't enough.
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I mean, you can have a refund of your membership fee if you are unhappy.
Shoot, I'll even give you double.
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Membership fee for what? What made you think I'm unhappy? The fact I posted a suggestion in "Bugs / Suggestions"? Man, you're a rough one. I'm out.
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When the communities feelings on the matter became clear. You asked for counter arguments.
I gave you some input. You seemed to appreciate it. But the bit about excluding the "thankless volunteering platitudes" got under my skin a bit as I have decades of volunteerism under my belt, so I clarified that they are not platitudes. and you say this:
You don't waste a single second not sugarcoating the staff's work all over the forums.
Not engaging with my points, but going after me personally.
I decided that instead of responding to the personal attack, I would make a sarcastic joke about your membership fee.
And you are defensive and throw in whatever "rough one" means... What am I supposed to think about your feelings?
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I doubt there are many users who would put in the effort to make a large batch of those reports in one go, but it seems it would benefit the site to allow them to do so if they've shown themselves trustworthy in that regard. Maybe it could be set up so that every time someone makes a valid game report, the mod who closes the ticket adds a flag, and once a certain number is reached the limit is automatically raised (or eventually eliminated).
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It may be a good idea, but I doubt it'd be used properly in the current climate. (:
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I doubt there are many users who would put in the effort to make a large batch of those reports in one go
Considering how fast tickets get handled, "one go" would be across multiple months.
My 2 months old ticket has a list of over 30 games.
The previous ticket got handled after 6 months.
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do those tickets ever get resolved? I added 1, a week ago. Its still untouched.
The funny thing is that game has already been given away on SG. Unfortunately doesnt show up in the search while adding gib
https://www.steamgifts.com/archive/search?q=Warlocks%202%3A%20God%20Slayers.
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They do, but not always, and it takes time.
I created ~170 such tickets a month and a half ago. One of the mods started working on them over the past week and has handled approx a third of the volume so far.
OTOH, there are 12 tickets in the same category that I submitted in late 2022 which haven't received any attention at all. So, your mileage my vary.
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Yeah. I appreciate the good progress. I hope it doesn't end with the active mod burning out because there are many more potential tickets in the pipeline :P
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There's just one, rarely two or three mods solving these tickets when the machine is running. How that is enough people for the barrage of game reports, I don't know man. Respect for the work done though.
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OTOH, there are 12 tickets in the same category that I submitted in late 2022 which haven't received any attention at all. So, your mileage my vary.
Perhaps, if it's been two years, and since newer tickets have been addressed. It might be time to resubmit. Humans make errors, volunteers, doubly so.
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Thanks for the advice. I'm not in a rush, so I'll just wait. I'm sure a mod will get around to them in due time. Staffing, especially at the senior mod level, is significantly better than it was 2 years ago.
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Suggestion to lift this limit specifically for "Add Game to List" reports.
I sort of understand limits on other categories pertaining to subjects like user behaviour, or micromanaging giveaways... But adding games or changing CV ?
SG has a lot to catch up on, so cutting a reporting person's time into smaller portions when they're volunteering that precious time to better this place is, in my opinion, completely inappropriate. Thanks for reading.
And if this opens a door for abuse where someone shovels their reports incorrectly into the "Add Game to List" category, then simply close those tickets and suspend said person temporarily, that is after including the case in the rules.
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