A distinction between justice and punishment has to be taken into account. Apart from that, I have no opinion on this. Consider the other guy raped and killed a 11 months old girl.
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But isn't this kind of "punishment" lead by emotions only?
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He's obviously referencing the ever-overused phrase "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."
If you look at the supporting text that speak about an eye for an eye, it becomes clear that they are speaking of financial purposes only. I'm a learned Jew, and we take our Biblical tradition very seriously.
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If death sentence "makes society a murderer", does incarceration make society kidnappers?
Also, note that society killed that guy in self-defense.
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Nope. Incarceration has a purpose. Its not self defense if there is no immediate threat of danger, which they're was clearly not. There was no reason to kill the man. Its not a deterrent, and if he was locked up for life he wouldn't be killing anyone else.
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Locking him up for life would just be a waste of taxpayer's money. He CHOSE to do what he did, and now has to face the consequences. According to the justice system, he's guilty, and his crimes are deserving of the death penalty. Now I will say who fucking knows these days with the justice system, but if that man is truly guilty, I personally feel he 100% deserved what he got.
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Actually, execution is far more costly than life imprisonment, as the state is required to pay for the additional hours that a defense attorney works on for appeals. This is a fact; its not arguable. My problem is with the justice system's authority to decide what warrants death and what doesn't. I don't think its possible for the court to decide subjectively, especially with the way juries operate.
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And again, why do you want this kind of people alive?
I could understand killing some one in self defense, but breaking into some ones house and killing them brutally for me qualifies to inmediate death penalty.
I dont feel sorry for the guy, but the one(s) who fucked up should get fired. You cant allow mistakes like that.
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That's absolutely the wrong question. It just shows how disturbed and skewed your perspective is. The only question you should ask is, "Why should this person die?" You disagree with me. That's fine. I think that death shouldn't be something taken by society. Acceptable behavior changes drastically with time, and one society's views are often quite different from another's. That's not to say that rape is ever okay, but why is state-licensed killing morally superior to this man's killing? I don't believe that it is. I think any kind of killing is wrong, unless doing so would save the lives of more than that are being killed.
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okay, so basically you are saying that the "society" should spare his life because maybe in the future "society" wouldnt practice death sentence.
The punishment for treason or murder in ancient times was death.
The punishment for murder in the medieval times was death.
The punishment for death last century was death.
Aint changing soon, specially with the demographic growth we have.
The only way that we can prevent crimes, specially murder is to give an extraordinary example of the punishment, and clearly is not enough since it still happens.
It is highly unlikely that people with murderous behaviour can be rehabiliated, specially with a life in prison. There is no reason to keep them behind bars occupying space where there are other type of criminals than can be rehabilitated.
That is of course unless we try to colonize space. We can send them all in the ship, but that aint happening anytime soon either.
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That's not at all what I'm saying. Let me try to rephrase it a bit: It may have been acceptable to kill people for murder 100 years ago, but its not anymore, because we have realized that its stupid and pointless. People will kill others regardless of the punishment; we see evidence of this via similar violent crime rates across the world, with each country having different punishments. For example, in China people can buy their way out of a sentence, but crime rates don't fly upward, and in most of Europe there is no death sentence, and yet crime rates remain the same.
My resolution is to make all convicted murderers and violent rapists laborers of the State, providing more than adequate provisions and housing. Of course they are forbidden to leave the compound, but this way they pay for their own food, we don't kill innocents, and actually might bring about rehabilitation. I entirely agree that our current system is broken. Jail isn't rehabilitation, its a punishment, and that's not the way an efficient society operates.
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There are death sentence in many countries across the world, so no, we do not all think that is stupid and pointless.
I understand your point, its ethically bad for the society to "kill" but there are more complex things behind all this, it is not that simple.
Your resolution is wrong, i mean, is not like im against it, however that is slavery, if the convicted guy dont work he wont eat? see?.
And it has a huge flaw, they are around a bunch of people, even in jail. They might kill again, maybe a thief, maybe a guard. You cant isolate them forever, that is even more unethical.
Better treat them like rabid dogs and put them to sleep. Unethical, maybe, but it solve the problems.
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Well, its not don't work don't eat, but if you don't want to work you can go back to the over-crowded jail cell with no amenities. People are opposed to slavery because of the connotations, not because of the actual ideas behind it. You aren't a racist just because you think slavery could be effective. These people wouldn't be part of society until they had proven they were rehabilitated or physically unable to kill. They would work on the compound doing factory work, farming, construction- sort of like a microcosm for society. There would be doctors and teachers and bankers; the place would essentially be a community for people who've committed horrible crimes. And they would come out being able to contribute to regular society.
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I've been to jail and I'll tell you the food is bad enough to make me not want to go back ever again. Most people would probably agree with me on that if they experienced it. But some people. people who rape and murder and are uncontrollably violent. I believe that under the right circumstances you are a risk to society and should be killed. Now I live in Canada so we have absolutely no capital punishment here. That being said however I wouldn't feel safe knowing that there are known murderers out on the streets who can slip through the legal system. I have 2 kids and the last thing I want is to have their lives in danger because we think we can "save" everyone when most of the time that isn't going to work. If it's for the greater good of the people in your community than I agree with the death penalty and I don't feel sorry for this asshole who suffered when he was put down. Like I said do unto others. If this guy didn't kill innocent people in the first place we wouldn't be having this discussion. We are all wearing our big boy pants. We know the difference between right and wrong. and if you're a grown ass man and choose to murder and rape torture whatever for any reason be prepared to deal with the consequences. lets stop treating each other like children and hold everyone accountable for what they've done
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Did you entirely miss my point before? Its neither moral nor at all effective to use the death penalty. I'm more afraid of the people who haven't ever been to prison roaming the streets than the 55-year-old that just got out, who killed someone when he was 20. People change, believe it or not, and our justice system makes mistakes all too often to sentence anyone to death.
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In my personal opinion he deserved it completely as i think the "justice" system is too light on too many things but my logical side says no simply put the dog down and show him more then he showed the women as we are an "advanced" society.
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Well, I believe they should have gave the same medicines to the second guy (since he raped a 11 month old girl). He would have felt the same pain as her. But, I am just feeling mean.
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I disagree respectively. If instead of killing, we put the worst of criminals in solitary confinement, that will rack up a lot of money in tax.
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Believe it or not, that's actually not the case (in the US, at least). The total cost of executing someone in the US is greater than the cost of keeping them imprisoned for life. That doesn't necessarily have to be the case - a lot of the increased cost comes from things like heftier burdens on the prosecution and more robust appeals processes - but "fixing" that would mean making it significantly easier for the state to execute someone, which I think is a bad idea for a number of reasons (like this study that was just released this week).
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Solitary is the cruelest thing you an do to anyone. Its torture. It makes you lose your sense of identity. Everyone who has been in there for more than a few years go insane.
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Really? We should put American citiznes in there without the benefit of trial? We should put convicted "killers" in there when, time and time again, its been proven "cruel and unusual?" This sounds fair to you? It sounds legal?
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"We should put American citiznes in ther without the benefit of trial?"
Trials happen first, don't they?
"We should put convicted "killers" in there when, time and time again, its been proven "cruel and unusual?""
That's the point. It's a form of punishment.
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Not in many cases, no. Look up Jose Padilla when you get a chance. Also, our Constitution guarantees safety from cruel and unusual punishment.
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kept alive pointlessly in a cage existing solely as a resource drain on a world where innocent people starve for no reason? its allegedly cruel to the guy and also inefficient/stupid/illogical. You'd get better results just beheading on the spot and spend the currently wasted resources on actually being certain before you convict to minimize the "proven innocent after 60 years on death row" cases.
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Those are some of the most depressing stories I've ever experienced.
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When you say "us" do you mean us normal citizens (aka not the law enforcement or government carrying out the judgement/punishment) or do you mean us, the human race and therefore imply judgement by a divine being? Still, whether you believe in divine judgement, humans still have an obligation to impose secular judgement on the degenerate members of society.
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Fuck him... Cold Blooded Murderer and Raper. One less awful person in the world. My heart is only with the victims, and their families. If he did it; the authorities proved it, and the society condemned him, he deserves it, and Carlo is right too.., Karma is powerful. I just cant stand watching this days how society protect this kind of cold people, and victims are forgotten. Barbaric are only his actions, at least he had the chance to be judged... A lot more human treatment than the one he condemned his victims.
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Ah right. Someone does something wrong, we as a society should too. That makes sense.
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Flux do you not understand that this man raped and took the life of a 11 month year old girl. This man has no human morals and acted on animal instinct that us as humans should be able to control. We as humans should punish the people that act out of pure evil. I say let the fucker suffer. It is not "evil" for us to punish evil.
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But why do we decide what kinds of killing- that is, the farcible removal of another's life- are okay and which aren't? That seems like a massive double standard. I totally understand that he has done some horrible things. Who hasn't done something wrong at one point or another? Its not like he'll kill anyone else. He's locked up in prison. Killing is immoral in any situation justified or not.
Let me give you an example: On the streets, there is an unwritten body of laws that govern the buying and selling of drugs. They are just as legitimate as those that Congressmen make, and more agreed upon by the public. When someone breaks that law, everyone from rival gangs are allowed to eliminate the lawbreaker. Is that moral? Its basically the same as what's happening here.
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Honestly, you sicken me. "Who hasn't done something wrong at some point or another?" of course everyone has done something wrong, but last time I checked, I never raped and murdered and 11th month year old baby. Just because he is in prison does not mean he can't still kill people, in fact there are a lot of prison kills. But I actually wouldn't mind if they left this guy alive to think about what he';s done, but I also wouldn't care if they killed him. Anyone who could do something as evil as what this guy did is obviously not going to change and has serious problems.
As for the unwritten law of buying and selling drugs, that law is not an official law and is made up by the gangs so of course that is unmoral and those people most likely do not deserve death. I don't know why you use this as an example because it is by no means comparable with the guy who raped and killed a baby. Someone who rapes and kills an 11th month baby is completely evil, and I feel sad that you don't see it this way. A drug dealer on the other hand, are usually people mixed up in a bad crowd and had a sad life, and the drug lords are power trippers who only want money at the expense of lives (so yes the drug lords are pretty evil)
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This doesn't deserve a response. Read what I wrote, not the words on your screen.
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Also, do you know any dealers? On a personal level, they're no different than a regular person. They're just stuck in a shit situation.
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That's exactly what I said. I said " usually people mixed up in a bad crowd". I completely agree with that part. Most drug dealers are truly not bad people at all, however someone who rapes and kills an 11 month year old baby is not someone who is just "in a shit situation", it is someone who is really fucked up in the head.
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You said that drug lords are "power trippers who only want money at the expense of lives." That's just not true. They're people too, and they do what they do for reasons that are sometimes altruistic and sometimes selfish, just like everyone else.
Also, someone who is fucked up in the head shouldn't be executed. If they don't have any control of their mental facilities, people cannot, in good conscience, be killed for something they had no control over. That's like killing a baby for coming out alive when the mother dies in childbirth.
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Did you read what I said? I said Drug Lords, not dealers. The drug lords are the once that get all the dealers addicted, and a lo of the time they themselves don't even do their own drugs. They just get the dealers addicted then get them to do the work, or kill them for screwing up. So yes usually the drug lords are sadistic basterds. Man you keep using all these metaphors that truly make no sense. This guy who killed a woman and a baby, may not have even been out of his mind, he may have just been a sadistic evil person who thought he could get away with it.
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If you're a sadistic evil fuck, then you're insane, no question about it.
Btw, very few "drug lords" exist. Its mostly just small independent people and a few mini-gangs that sell narcotics. You only find those crazed killers in large cities or areas of high drug traffic.
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I know this argument has been going on for awhile and I truly have nothing against you, I just know we both have different opinions on this matter, so please don't take anything personally. I also just wanted to add that I actually know a lot of people who were/are drug dealers and they are good people, but one talked about the higher ranked drug cartel/lords and how they killed a dealer and laughed at his corpse because he didn't reach the money quota. To me, someone who does that is evil.
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And give him the chance, "to this animal", first live for free in a cage, and worse, the chance to get out and do it again to otehr families. Of course it sounds good from a moral stand, "give this kind of people murders and rapist the chance to be better in an unknown future", but if the next time he do it the victims are our mothers and sisters, Im sure the opinion will be "Sleep this son of a ....".
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People are promised a quick death with minimal pain via lethal injection. If they botched his execution, they could screw up the execution of someone else. As for karma, there are people with far worse crimes who don't suffer in their executions.
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I'm against death penalty. I personally think it doesn't work even as a discouraging tool.
I think the guy should have been put into solitary for life. He deserved to spend the rest of his life with what he did, exactly like his victim will have to.
Having said this, I don't mind if he had to suffer for 43 minutes.
He didn't do what he did by accident/mistake. He chose to, and I guess he knew about death sentence in his state. It wasn't "torture to death", it was "suicide by death sentence". Sorry if it wasn't quick enough for him. :/
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He should have been stuck in jail in a type of solitary confinement for 23 hours a day.
People like that get no sympathy from me.
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The death penalty is nothing but premeditated, cold blooded murder and this case (as others recently since European companies stopped providing chemicals for the lethal injection) also has a tinge of torture. I am totally against it for many reasons and not only morally.
I recommend Kieslowski movie "A short film about killing" if you are interested in this topic. It portrays a killer without any redeeming qualities but it also makes a very nice parallel between him and everyone involved in his execution, implying that the only difference is that one murder is sanctioned and the other isn't.
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Torture requires premeditation. I agree that this was an awful thing, but disagree that the unrepentant rapists and murderer should not have been put to death.
There are times when the dangers posed to society by a person are great enough that any risk of the person escaping and being permitted another chance at harming people is unconscionable. I fully believe that both men referenced in the article (the second of whom, who is still alive, I will remind you raped and murdered an 11-month old girl he lived with) fall squarely into this category.
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Using illegal untested drugs that have produced similar results recently could indeed be considered premeditated but I do agree that it was not an intentional effect.
As for your second paragraph, many countries in the world do not have the death penalty which is becoming more and more anachronistic. I come from a country that has no capital punishment or life imprisonment for more than a century. In fact, maximum jail sentence is 25 years. This has not resulted in increased violence or reoccurring serial murders.
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That's great, and I hope it continues. I really do.
Would it be fair to say your population is relatively low, though? Especially when compared to 313 million?
People who actually deserve the death penalty and real sociopaths (defined as those with incurable, untreatable lack of empathy - people for whom other human beings literally aren't 'real') are rare. Those among them who are willing and able to commit violent crimes are a minority amongst sociopaths (many more become CEOs or bankers).
I'd still be willing to bet your country has had at least one serial violent offender. You just likely have the good sense to commit him to a mental institution (under guard) instead of a grave.
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Its a percentage - meaning that serial killers still exist, just maybe only one or two compared to the dozens in America. But his (or her, I don't know) point about crimes is important to note.
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Yes, you are correct... my country only has 10 million inhabitants and is mostly peaceful.
But the same thing applies to countries that have a much higher population and high crime rates such as Brazil, Mexico or Russia. According to Amnesty International only 40 countries (20% of the UN) maintain the death penalty in both law and practice. And the US is the only first world country that still maintains it. It is also noteworthy that your country leads the world index for incarceration rate.
I don't presume to know the truth about where violence comes from and how to deal with it but I think that it is far more complex than most people understand. It is a fascinating topic...
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I agree, but when something like this happens it just causes more pain.
Did he deserve to die? Absolutely. His life, like all lives, had value still. That value, however, was outweighed by the continuing risk to others which he posed.
The manner of his death, however, was pointlessly painful. Something like this negatively affects everyone who witnesses it or hears about it. It's harmful to society at large.
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Yup, what he did was barbaric.
Oh, how he died? You know, I don't think anyone should die that way. I think it'd be much more human if the death penalty were administered by filling an airtight room with pure nitrogen gas and letting the person suffocate. It's carbon dioxide levels in your blood that trigger all the pain, disorientation, etc we associate with suffocation - simply breathing a pure nitrogen atmosphere would just put them to sleep without pain and have them die quietly. A bonus? It couldn't be fucked up the way the injection was.
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Because an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
There is a difference between vengeance and justice. If, in the interests of public safety and justice, the death of a man who has committed foul crimes is needed, it should be done quickly and as painlessly as practical. In the US, to do otherwise is a violation of the Constitutionally-affirmed right to be free of cruel and unusual punishment. Why should we sully another person's conscience by having them cause such pain and torment, when it can be done without pain?
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But why is his death justice? Life imprisonment costs about the same (or less in certain cases) than lethal injection. That compound that messed up? Really expensive. Its not like the guy will get out when he's 75 and murder another person.
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how the hell does it cost the same? they've gotta start using cheaper stuff. hell even just an empty syringe does the job fairly quickly(just a heartattack those aren't so bad) you don't even strictly need the poison.
I know why we stopped edison's electric chair but why'd we stop hanging? isn't broken neck pretty instant? just gotta do it right is all.
what about that cowstunner thing? thats supposed to be pretty humane and human skulls are so much thinner it can only be more effective right?
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Lawyers. Appeals upon appeals upon appeals, all provided by the government. Death Row is costly on multiple levels. Life imprisonment, not so much.
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You have no sympathy for him, he had no sympathy for his victims, why don't we execute you to? After all, that logic is seamless...
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...and your logic is flawed;
You are using a baseless foundation to portray me as should be executed. Your assumption that I am as heartless and lacking any sense of respect for human life, as this criminal, without any plausible reasoning as to why.
I happen to be very apathetic towards society. What he did was a blatant ignorance of human life. Ergo he has done something so awful and heartless that I have no sympathy for him.
If you don't agree it would have nothing to do with people being executed. Your statement is nothing more than a childish pandering to an immature ideal.
That you would base such a serious judgement on something that has nothing to do with anything pertinent to what has happened in the OP, just makes you look like a flagrant grief er, and I would surmise you should get some psychological therapy. If that is too expensive, then you could try growing up?
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You claimed that because the man has no sympathy for his victims, it is fine to kill him. You also said that you had no sympathy for him. By your (flawed) logic, you too can be executed.
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You have no justification to claim I should be executed. I did not kill or rape innocent people in cold blood. The fact that you suggest I be executed is a criminal offense in my country. It is called uttering a death threat.
Maybe some time in your suggested isolation will help you see the ignorance of such a statement.
I am surprise this forum allows these kinds of threats on anther persons life.
You are using a baseless foundation to portray me as should be executed. Your assumption that I am as heartless and lacking any sense of respect for human life, as this criminal, without any plausible reasoning as to why.
If you don't agree it would have nothing to do with people being executed. It is my opinion that people that kill other people with a total lack of conscience, habitually, offer nothing to the world. Because of that being punished for their crimes by death is a viable solution. This is my opinion, and nothing you can say or do will change it, especially when you resort to criminal threats.
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That's precisely my point. Just because someone has done something that you feel he no longer deserves sympathy should not mean that that man no longer deserves his very own life, that which no man can give and no man should take.
If we just got rid of people who do nothing to benefit it, the world would be a bitter and desolate place.
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Karma's a bitch I guess. Still, if anyone is sentenced to death, it should just be carried out quick and clean. Makes it easier for everyone left behind, both on victim's and convict's sides to carry on when it's done.
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Oklahoma.
A guy breaks into a house where two young women live. He shoots one, and buries her alive. He rapes the other. On Tuesday, he was killed by lethal injection. But. They fucked up. He took 45 minutes to die, and he died in agony. Source
So, what do you think SG? Did he deserve it? Is it barbaric?
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