Does Rockstar deserve the heat?
They dont deserve it. I also see how most of the people who gave it a bad review have under 50 hours of gameplay.
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It's not about the playtime, they're protesting T2's very gun-ho uninformed method of taking down online modding.
OpenIV was mostly used for Single Player mods and even restricted access to Online while it's mods were running, yet T2 ordered a cease & desist order on them.
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Regardless of what it was 'for', it seems they were having issues with patch content being leaked and someone questioned if it was linked to OpenIV. If something serves as a vector for other less scrupulous people to take a dump on their property, I can see why they did this. Would have been way better if they got in touch with the OpenIV people and tried to find some kind of middleground if it was a security issue.
There is a distinct difference between "Banning mods" which implies no mods at all can be used under threat of punishment, and just "Banning one third party tool for editing and modding".
Abusing a review system to express your outrage is a wonky way to go about it though. The review system is what we use to gauge whether or not something is likely to be a worthwhile purchase, not a social tool as many seem to use it. It reminds me of the people that deliberately seek out recommendations just to downvote them because they don't personally like the game, or voters on shopping sites that review actual products 1 out of 5 stars because their item was defective and they want to lash out at the seller (giving a false impression of the item).
I wonder how many of the people taking part in the sweeping negative reviews are still purchasing GTAonline currency.
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They aren't abusing the review system though. It clearly states "would you recommend this game?", obviously they would no longer recommend it. You may not agree with it, but that doesn't make it abuse.
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What about bombing non-GTAV games with negative reviews, because they're angry at this? What about that part of the equation?
You say "obviously they would no longer recommend it" but I don't think that's entirely honest. I'm willing to bet that a solid portion of the negative review bombers didn't even mod GTAV but are doing so out of anger after being falsely told "they're banning all mods". I doubt the distinct majority of these people have stopped playing GTAV as a result, nor has their enjoyment of the base game been retroactively disturbed. By the same logic, you could also say that systematically downvoting every review that is not aligned with yours is not abuse, because maybe that individual really didn't find them all 'helpful'?
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Unintended use in itself does not constitute abuse though does it?
I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that they are using the system in a way that is allowed. I think in most cases review bombing another game is just petty revenge while a small fraction of them may actually have something relevant (I'm being optimistic and I'm not going to go searching for evidence either way) to say.
I've also yet to see someone who is angry with something recommend it but maybe that's just me.
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"I've also yet to see someone who is angry with something recommend it but maybe that's just me."
Then you must not look at Steam reviews much. It seems thumb up and thumb down is too difficult for most people, leading to downvotes with highly positive reviews or "don't buy, it's trash!" with upvotes. The latter being much more prominent, true.
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I check steam reviews for all games I consider purchasing. I also know to completely disregard reviews that are either jokey or not serious in any way. Anyone desperate enough to post a review while trying to be funny or edgey aren't worth listening to in my book so I tune them out.
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Likewise. The problem is when some recent issue has upset the playerbase and suddenly it's incredibly hard to find honest critical reviews, either because of the sheer number of fresh angry mob participants, or just because the articulate ones have all been mass-downvoted to oblivion. Those downvotes aren't going to be reverted even if they get what they want.
I suppose a critical factor in this is how organised it is. Had it just been a random honest occurance of backlash it wouldn't be so bad, but people are crowing about how they're all going to gather up and blast the reviews together, with that very goal in mind. I dunno, it just doesn't sit right with me. Kinda reminds me of when people used to leave 1-star reviews on games that were months away from release. Maybe it's the effect of being exposed to so many people of this singular "ONLY MY OPINION IS VALID" mindset as per online gaming. Like I said in my other post, I admit that a more civil approach probably wouldn't get a better result, but this is just kind of dragging things further downhill, IMO.
There are no winners when this garbage goes down in the gaming world :u
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It doesn't, but actively sabotaging the primary purpose of the system does.
A person can still recommend the game in general and update their review to include a warning about the current state of the game. It's a pretty common practice for (good) recommendation writers to post warnings, protests and such at the start of their review so people browsing can get a clear idea about what's going on. I might have agreed that the OpenIV stuff can easily sour someone's mood enough to warrant a temporary change to 'not recommended' in protest, but when that then spills over into other games it is an abuse. Plus even if they outright went back on their decision and let OpenIV operate again, a ton of those reviews would just stay negative out of being too lazy to update after they got what they want. ;P
Just because something is allowed by the system doesn't remove from what the action itself is. The review system is to signpost peoples opinions so other potential buyers can make informed decisions. While it is technically allowed for people to upvote or downvote any review, someone that downvotes all positive reviews and upvotes all negative reviews is deliberately attempt to game the system, promote only their own opinion, and ultimately serves to sabotage the core reason the system even exists, moreso when you consider the effect of downvoting other games. Even further when you consider the common lie of "they banned all mods".
This method may certainly generate the most intense backlash, but it's dishonest backlash that also harms a system that is as much for customers as it is for those providing the games. If T2 really did do this with malicious disregard for their own playerbase, people forget that such a deliberate backlash may in fact have the opposite effect and just drive them to care even less under that PR guise.
Maybe it's just me having too much exposure to online gamer mob mentality but it's a hard pill for me to swallow. I can appreciate that a more civil approach probably would get no results, but the attitudes involved and the scorched earth approach just seriously rub me the wrong way. I've hated it when I was considering buying a game and I couldn't find enough quality reviews due to some latest miniature controversy within the playerbase. The same kind of recommentation spam happens even for tiny things like mechanics balancing, or as large as a total rework of base mechanics, it utterly devalues the gravity of such an outcry y'know? Hell, The Culling was on a free weekend and the reviews were swamped with outrage that they added a staggering mechanic that was apparently intended to stop spammish melee combat, and the regulars were infuriated by it. However playing the free weekend for myself, the mechanic seemed totally fine and would be less inclined to buy had it not been there.
I dunno, unless I'm missing something here, the degree of backlash seems unfitting in scale to the degree of the crime. Especially the spill-over into other games and the inconvenience to browsers.
(also jebus, sorry about the wall of text haha)
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Hah no worries. It is almost always interesting to read someone else's point of view, with the exception mainly being people who are completely set in there ways and can't ever concede that someone else might have a valid point even if they disagree.
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I disagree. I never played a mod in my life and couldn't care less. I wouldn't write a negative review based on others opinions. That's just dumb. Then again, people will do anything. Guess we just have to hope for the best. Maybe they all dislike the game now.
Anyway, I don't think it abuse either. Just the way the system is.
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I don't know in which language you look, but in French, 80% of people giving bad rep have more than 70h in the game
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50 hours!?!?!
... Why the hell would anyone need even 20 hours of gameplay? I mean... I'd understand that you'd want them to have 10 hours or something, but having 2 days and 2 hours worth of gameplay is just insane...
You can complete the whole game a few times in that time. So crazy to see how people have so much time on their hands that they become ignorant about how much time others have.
And of course... this has literally nothing to do with it. They don't recommend the game because Take-Two and Rockstar are lying through their teeth while destroying the community around their own game. It's not like they're fixing anything. The game's full of hackers and none of them are using OpenIV.
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sooooo, how many hours you need to be legit ?
if you are under 35 then your opinion doesnt count and you need to grow up a little more
hihi
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You'd think AAA publishers would employ people bright enough not to pull this shit. If you want £50 off us for games there has to be some give and take, you know? :)
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Yet, all of us gladly forget that they have released tons of free content, that the majority of other publishers and developers would charge money for.
As to the poll question - No, Rockstar doesn't deserve the heat for banning mods. Everyone likes mods, true, but everyone also likes free content. So far they've given us more than enough free content with their regular updates, and it's annoying how everyone ignores the good things and puts the bad things in the spotlight.
Do a hundred good things and nobody will care, do something bad once and everyone will notice.
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More to the point, this was a cease and desist against a third party tool for modding (but that edited files and archives). That's different from a blanket ban on mods. It probably wasn't the best way to go about it, but then again neither is abusing a rating system that serves the customers as much as the game creator.
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Yeah, technically it's not a ban, of course. But if you destroy 60-70% of mods while also making sure that the mods that survive aren't really game-changing, then you can draw conclusions.
In Estonia, they've imposed a tax on alcohol. A pretty major tax. The price for beer used to be 0,6€ and then it moved up to 1,1€. Now, there's going to be another tax, which will increase the price to 2,5€. After that, in a year, there will be a "sugary drinks tax", which will increase the price even more. It's predicted that it'll go to around 3€... The people can't afford it, of course. So.. can it not be considered a ban if the governing power (in this case, the publisher) takes away your ability to obtain something?
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No because a 'ban on mods' means that all installations found to have mods would be penalised, no exceptions. The takedown of a modding tool that was exploited to allow easier usage of online cheats is quite different from that, even if it does mess up the current modding scene. It depends entirely on if the only way to install the mods is through OpenIV and whether alternates are available, doesn't it? T2 should have really come up with an alternate measure as not to inconvenience people like this, but saying the takedown is a blanket ban on mods is a big lie of omission. A lie that is totally unnecessary at that, what they did has plenty enough fire behind it to stoke people up without adding a disinformation element.
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I mean, this is just wordplay here. If the government banned having more than one wheel on a car while the rest of the car was still allowed, does that mean that driving a car has been banned? No, not directly. But indirectly you're prohibiting people from driving a car. Some might still try and drive with only one wheel, but it's less effective and borderline meaningless.
Same with OpenIV. You take away the most important tool that can actually make most mods work and you've essentially banned modding. Just because you can still make a mod that spawns a Banshee in front of Michael's house, doesn't mean that modding's still running at even half the steam it used to. Goodbye to mods that actually changed up gameplay. Goodbye to mods that changed the game's aesthetic more than your average police cruiser texture mod.
Yeah, you can keep saying that it isn't a hard ban, but in the end, all that you're doing is fooling yourself and robbing yourself from mods on GTA V and GTA IV.
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Except having only one wheel renders a car unable to fulfil its purpose.
Your analogy would work better if certain car enthusiasts enjoyed fitting a fifth wheel on their cars, and when the government the one unique tool required to attach the fifth wheel, the enthusiasts started ranting saying that car modding is banned. While it may be a concern that other third party tools of a similar kind may face a similar fate, I was simply saying that saying 'modding is banned' is a lie of omission.
Rather than throwing out the typical limping analogies everyone resorts to, perhaps you could provide more direct insight and cut to the chase of all this. Are you saying that there are zero alternatives to OpenIV, and that the mods cannot be installed manually or operated without its usage? If so, why is this the case? It reminds me of the modding for Skyrim with the ENB, which was only possible if you allowed the use of a custom dll, which for a singleplayer game is less of a concern, but for a game with online components (and with an overlord taking the quick and easy solution) it gets tricky.
And yes, I will keep saying it's a hard ban, because they're not trying to ban mods. :U
Doesn't rob me of shit, because how I choose to phrase it won't effect the outcome. It sucks that the modding scene has been dealt a huge blow, but whether this is a permanent and insurmountable setback for deeper modding, or whether someone steps up with a new tool/injector that gets T2's greenlight, it remains to be seen.
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Yeah, you're right. It was a bad analogy. The real analogy is like banning people from making cool cars and instead having the governing power make the cars themselves and selling them at a price that they want to sell it at. Overpriced, of course.
I mean, isn't it obvious why they've done what they did? Take-Two makes a game with a gamemode that is designed to just make extra money due to the grindy nature that was in their mind.
Take-Two loses players due to a huge amount of cheaters and receives mass downvoting due to the multiplayer and its faults. Take-Two issues a statement, saying that they're under-monetizing players and how they're thinking of changing it. Suddenly, OpenIV gets taken down forcibly. Take-Two on purpose keeps a distance from Rockstar and Rockstar makes a statement that distances itself from Take-Two's actions while still condoning it. The lack of real mods (not just bad spawn mods and minimal texture changes) forces players that are looking for new content to switch over to multiplayer. Multiplayer is known for forcing hands into buying Shark Cards.
Call me a conspiracy theorist or whatever, but it's hard to deny it since Take-Two is one of the most greedy companies after EA.
So... while there's not been a ban on mods, they're really striving for it. Also, I still have no clue why you think that mods like Carmaggedon, that actually changes the game are anything close to "Police car: black edition".
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No, that analogy is worse, because T2 isn't selling mods in place of the tool they banned. Please stop.
What you call 'obvious' is just guesswork. While it's possible that they shut down OpenIV to try increase the amount of GTAonline players (and therefore slightly increase the number of shark card buyers), that is still just baseless guesswork, and still doesn't really counter the fact that modding is a big draw to such games. It's possible but I would think it's unlikely, given how badly advised such a move would be.
Lacking deeper modding doesn't force people into online play, and online play doesn't force people to buy overpriced game currency. People seeking more content don't automatically convert into online players that are frivolous spenders. People who want more content are quicker served by turning their interest towards other games, and given the current PC gaming climate with regular bundles and the infamous steam backlog phenomenon, it's a losing gamble on T2's side if that was their hidden ploy.
I guess we'll have to differ on this one.
And I never said anything about the quality of any mod. Seriously, quit overreaching strawmen.
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You're looking at it from a completely different angle.
Shark Cards. They took away singleplayer content. People flock to multiplayer. Multiplayer's grindy. To have more fun and cooler gear, you need money. Money's hard to get, Take-Two sells money. How is that so hard to figure out?
Also... guesswork? You're also doing guesswork. You're guessing that they're telling the truth. You know, the company that literally says that you, the consumer, isn't paying enough to them. I'm making a simple deduction. If you really think that Take-Two wouldn't take this stuff into account and make their decisions based on profit margins, then that's a completely different issue.
This isn't some complicated "Bush did 9/11" type of theory. It's basic economics. Apple did a similar thing. They made sure that people couldn't fix their own phones and once they did that, suddenly more phones were purchased and more money was made in repairs. Cause and effect.
Pretend like I was straw-manning here or in the previous comment. Doesn't matter to me. I gave you a theory and you obviously think that Take-Two is not out for profits but to actually just make your gaming experience better. At least it's not as bad as supporting pre-orders.
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It's not hard to 'figure out'. This isn't about 'figuring it out'. What you're talking about isn't some undeniable sparkling pearl of truth, Zeruel, it's still just conjecture. Conjecture I feel is over-reaching, given it would require T2 to have either chosen to gamble sacrificing a selling point that generates its own content in exchange for a side-effect that may barely boost income at all. You have a hypothesis, not a truth. I disagree with your assertion that your opinion is 'obviously the case'.
We're going around in circles here. :u
Yes, I am doing 'guesswork' of a sort, but I base it on something other than a one-note assumption, and I'm also not totally discarding what you have to say. I just feel that my conclusion is more likely. You're right, big businesses love their money, and aren't beyond doing dumb things to squeeze more cash out of consumers even if it means generating a sense of insult, but you're running with the idea that a decisive strike against modding will actually generate more money for them. I can totally buy that executive meddling would lead them to make a bad move in the name of profits (overestimating the migration to online play), but that still requires assumptions, whereas it's less of a leap to think that they would see an injector-style third party tool as a concern in light of patch leaks and hacking in their (profit generating) online mode. They did say they were under-monetising their property, but that doesn't mean they would bite the hand that feeds them. It may mean that they're going to switch up the things they charge for in the online world (premium currency-only items, premium-only services, etc), adapting to how microtransactions bleed players of their money while they are happy to do so, as opposed to their current method of expensive lump exchanges for in-game cash which turns off a lot of people.
And yes, you were strawmanning. You were pretending I said or implied things that I didn't, and then criticised those false notions as a means of trying to devalue my standpoint. You have pretended in another reply chain that I said the singleplayer mods themselves were malicious. Just a few replies ago you pretended that I said something about the quality of the mods. And right here, you're accusing me of thinking that T2 isn't out for profits and they're trying to make the game better, but you already know that isn't the case because I have repeatedly pointed out that I felt your hypothesis was flawed directly because it risks the selling power of their game (and therefore potentially harming their income).
This is getting a touch too personal and disarming the little dishonest pokes all the time is starting to chafe.
Seeing as we're going around in circles (and all I can really offer is trying to reiterate my points), unless there's anything new here in your next reply, consider me done with this. For what it's worth, I hope you're dead wrong about T2 and that something takes OpenIVs place, or they drum up some official tool. It's a longshot but hey, here's hopin-
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But really they do charge money for the updates they release constantly because just as an example a yacht cost 6 million which is way to many hrs of grinding to even count. The bunker in the most recent update is 3 million and the mobile station is another 2-3 million. All of this is beyond reason in order to achieve without paying money for shark cards and shark cards are WAY OVERPRICED... for the 8million shark card it is $100. In order to buy all the dlc content you would need thousands of dollars.
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So I don't really consider the updates they do as "good things" when they are beyond reach for a normal player.
They are just beyond greedy money grubbers. They take away a good thing for single player mods which does not harm their game just to pad onto the effect of trying to ban online multiplayer money scripts which is a VERY minority of the modding done on GTA.
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Free content is factored into the dev costs of the game, not just magiced by the power of love. They don't really live in the same argument as modding.
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One more reason for me to stop reading reviews 😌
Ppl leave negative reviews for Sid Meier's Civilization® V and BioShock Infinite cause 2k removed mods for GTAV. WTF?!
Not surprised if next gta we won't see on PC 😭😭😭
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There are people who said they are now holding off on buying it because they were planning to play it with mods at some point.
I get that these reviews may not interest you, but it's still a valid concern...
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I understand what you mean, but it still has to stay on the GTA page, and not Civ V or Bioshock...
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Civ V is also very mod-user heavy though, it should be fair warning to warn them their game can be screwed next.
Although since they get nickle-and-dimed a different way, they're probably fine.
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There is a difference between a warn (maybe in discussion forum) and giving bad rep to the game, while clearly Civ V has nothing wrong about that so far. I find it injust to the game, that's all.
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Fun Fact, most companies never read their own forums. They don't care. It doesn't affect them in the slightest. Those "moderators" or whatever, those are usually members of the community. They care about money and that's what the users are affecting here. Their source of income. GTA V is one of the most profitable games out there. There's nothing unjust done here. Even if they lost a million dollars of revenue, it'd still be less than 0,1%.
It's not unjust to voice your concern over the publisher committing something that's borderline illegal and most definitely anti-consumer.
They're screwing YOU over with it too. It's funny to see how you're actually fine with that...
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Re-read me : it injust to CIV V. I don't understang why people will give bad review to a perfectly fine game because the publisher did shit somewhere else.
I'm okay with spamming GTA V review. I'm not fine with mod banning. (But still, people are overreacting, because they did not ban mod, they banned a tool used to make mod but also destroy the game thanks to some malevolent users).
But yes, it was a bad move, they could have find an other solution. But it impact GTA V and NOT CIV V. OP was talking about these reviews (the one on Civ V and Bioshock, try to follow the discussion and not attack me)
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Re-read mine.
I'm claiming that supporting their other products inadvertently supports Take Two and their practices.
How does it not impact CIV V? Civ has a thriving mod community and a move like the OpenIV's cease and desist could be a sign of what's to come. Why not try and prevent something instead of waiting until something bad happens?
This affects no one but Take Two. They're a huge company that can take some backlash. This isn't a fragile indie company. Take Two's claims are even that they are actually under-monetizing customers. Yet, they made 3 versions of GTA V in timeframes that would net them the most amount of money and they also keep their prices really high. GTA V is still $60, Bioshock Infinite's Season Pass and DLCs are still only -50% at best.
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They did not ban all the mod, they banned one tool harming the game ! It's not gonna happen to Civ V, because the modding tools in Civ aren't made to break the update. This protestation is blowing off proportions ! So yes, I don't see the point of downgrading the review of another game than GTA V, to protest for this useful tool.
"Why not try and prevent something instead of waiting until something bad happens?" i don't say to not protest to prevent it, I said it's childish to prevent it in that way. One 5 years old stole something to another boy, will you throw his parents to jail ? Proportional answer, it's matter.
Maybe they would decrease the price if people stopped to buy it at that price, but no, gotdam GTA V is still a bestsellers, you can't do anything if people are sheep ready to buy a game at full price 5 years after it's out.
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Well, since you're speaking on this topic, you probably aren't oblivious to the fact of how necessary this tool is.
Around 60-70% of all GTA 4 and 5 mods require OpenIV to function. It's like SKSE for Skyrim. You just can't run most mods without it. Especially anything that's more complicated than a few spawns and a retexture. That's the issue here.
What are you talking about by saying "break the update"? How does one break an update? If you mean that the update won't work with some mods, then you're lying. It's the opposite. If it's the opposite, then it's not a hindrance for the update, it's a hindrance to the mod. The update will happen and sometimes break mods. Simple.
Your analogy of the 5-year old doesn't work here. No one's prohibiting Take Two from doing anything. The protest is just to show Take Two that what they're doing isn't tolerated by the community. Plus, it's not like Rockstar did this. Rockstar, the developer, just supports their actions. Take Two issued the seize and desist.
Oh, of course, they don't have to reduce their price if others still buy it. But what about Bioshock Infinite's Season Pass? Do you actually think that people are buying it? I mean, you probably don't know, otherwise, you'd have mentioned it. What Take Two is doing is pretty much strongarming the customer. The same thing they're doing with their microtransactions. With the microtransactions, they slowed the rate of money down artificially and through that were waiting for the people to buy the Shark Cards. Is it allowed? Yeah. But is it scummy? Also yeah.
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I stopped at "you're lying." You're not even try to understand what I'm saying, you are just angry and it's toward me because I dared cross your path today and stating my opinion. OpenIV was used to leak future update and ruining online experience that the dev wanted to create by releasing stuff one after another. That's why it's not gonna happen to other game like Civ V or Bioshock, it's specifically targeted at the multi of GTAV. "It's not supposed to be used for online" ≠ "people aren't using it to mess with online". So I still stand to my point, which is go spam review and GTA V, and maybe try to raise the issue to other player in the forum of other games such as Bioshock or Civ, but it's not useful for anyone to spam the review of the last two I mentioned. People are having a tantrum against Take Two and all of their games, because they didn't liked one specific actions toward a specific problem to a specific game, which is the use of a mod tool to leak stuff online. I'm gonna stop answering now, I have other stuff to do than argue online, I guess you too, we'll never get along on this, I wish you a good evening.
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Well, again, I would expect you to know the basics of the issue and the software at hand (and what it's capable of doing) before making claims like that it "ruins an update". You yourself stated that leaks occurred. That's not "ruining" an update. It's just leaked data.
As to the multiplayer stuff, their own statement was that the problems were about multiplayer hacking, which isn't the case because the most popular software's don't rely on OpenIV. That'd be a design flaw.
And yeah, of course, those two statements aren't synonymous. So what? They're not supposed to be. It's their official stance and at the same time, it's been proven by the heads of the modding community that people aren't widespreadedly using it for hacking. Again, it'd be a design flaw.
But, it was a good chat.
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Civ 6 even allows mods on multiplayer. They literally added that functionality after launch. I feel like this has more to do with the developer.
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Which kinda clashes with how people keep saying Rockstar supported developers.
So really, it could happen with all games then. Albeit it's much less unlikely since this was obviously done in some sleezy way to sell more scam... I mean sharkcards.
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How exactly does singleplayer modding effect their online currency sales, exactly?
This was not a blanket ban on mods, but a cease and desist on a third party tool that edited files. While its usage may have been innocent, they felt it was a security concern (a vector for cheat creators, hackers in the online side, etc) so it's not too unsurprising. There was probably a better way to go about it but suggesting that all their other games are in danger of blanket mod bans is using some really slippery logic.
Consider : "Take-Two's actions were not specifically targeting single player mods. Unfortunately OpenIV enables recent malicious mods that allow harassment of players and interfere with the GTA Online experience for everybody. We are working to figure out how we can continue to support the creative community without negatively impacting our players."
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Making people have fun in SP rather than go MP and spend their hard-earned cash on sharkcards?
Don't ask me, it's weird evil-publisher thinking after all.
And we all know that that's some grade-A BS. Please don't tell me you're buying the PR-lie "It's all in your benefit". Next thing you're telling me Steam gifting trades really were for our benefit like the shitty PR-message made it appear to be...
(And everyone reading it really wondered; "Did they REALLY just say they made it easier for us to gift like this. Really? REALLY?)
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Removing a modding tool doesn't force people to buy shark cards in online play though. :P
And yes, I am inclined to believe that if the OpenIV system was able to modify the GTAV files as to allow mods of sweeping depth (that no other modding tool or installer could), then its only logical to assume that the same ease-of-use can be applied to cheating online. Determined hack creation groups wouldn't be swayed by that, but a freely available tool could potentially make it easier for dabblers to try the waters. If OpenIV was strictly only influencing singleplayer and posing no other threat than issuing a cease and desist goes against what any greedy self-serving company wants : profits. A thriving and detailed modding community is a huge selling point to any game, especially AAA games.
I'm not even saying it wasn't a majorly clumsy-ass move on their part, but the instant assumption of total blind pointless guilt on T2s part is just as myopic. The same people saying they're doing absolutely nothing to try counter online cheating are also saying that this measure had zero benefits, despite the logic following that it could be used as a measure to mount up cheats or exploits of a less 'professional' grade. I'm more inclined to believe that a commercial entity wants to protect its money-maker, whereas somebody utterly uninvolved with the company saying "they do not try to stop hackers" that offers no appreciable source or logic other than "I still see hackers!" is also asking to be taken on pure faith. I can't really see what T2 would stand to gain by cutting off an apparently huge selling point of their big hitters, so the remaining rationale is that it was being exploited by assholes ruining the party for everyone.
So what am I missing here? Assume I'm totally dense and overlooking something obvious. What exactly do T2 gain by severing this big positive from their game? Surely you have more than "it might make more people play online, and some of those might buy currency", because that's just pure speculation and would be a pretty bizarre move, IMO. Though I suppose not beyond impossible if they have internal meddling from someone who seriously doesn't get the industry they're working in, heh.
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Wow, you can't read any review then. Most independent reviewers protest unhealthy decisions of large companies. TotalBiscuit, Jim Sterling, The Steam Community, Metacritic User Reviews and so on won't support that kind of behavior.
Protesting Civ V and Infinite might look foolish, but people are getting their voices heard by directly hurting their wallets.
Also... if you're ignorant enough to believe that they won't release the next GTA on PC because of this, then you're just unaware of what's actually been happening with Take Two in the last few weeks. They themselves are saying that they want to monetize everything and the best idea would be to just do that. That they're "under-monetizing" customers, even though GTA Online is an extreme grind and they sell money in microtransactions.
They want money. They're a company that's gone beyond greed at this point. They'll make your little toy that you can shill your money for. If there are enough sheeple out there, which looks like is the case, then they'll do it. No need to worry about that...
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I don't protect Take Two 😊
I don't have GTAV and probably won't buy it - not cause mods, just my laptop is too old for this game.
I played and finished only (with +150 hours) San Andreas (not on steam). I played and enjoy it without any mods.
Ppl leave negative reviews to all "Take two" games - for example Manhunt and Max Payne.
Its like new trend these days.. Paradox Increased price to all games - and ppl started to leave negative reviews - Stellaris, Europa Universalis IV, Hearts of Iron IV and almost all their games 😮
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I can see why you'd think of this as a "ridiculous trend" or whatever, but keep in mind, the review system is based around one question. "Do you recommend this game". Obviously, after these anti-consumer practices, people found that they can't recommend it.
If a publisher does something bad, consumers have the choice of boycotting them and their products.
A thought experiment: There are companies that specialize in killing animals in inhumane ways with the goal of getting their fur and selling them as luxury items. Now, let's also say that you don't like that and therefore don't support them. Turns out they also make some type of food that you can also buy that isn't wrapped up in the conspiracy.
Do you keep recommending and buying their products and doing so, support the company that kills those animals? Or do you keep buying their products, regardless of what you're supporting by doing so?
Neither answer is incorrect. It's just the question of your own morality. Do you think that causing harm to others is enough of a reason to boycott something or not?
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Again - i'm ok with negative reviews to GTAV - if people don't like game-without-mods, they can tell this in review.
It's not ok when someone write negative review for Max Payne cause mods removed from GTAV
it's a great game, but duck you, Take Two!
It's like.. Someone will write negative review to Metro 2033
it's a great game, but duck you, Deep Silver, with you region locked games in humble store!
Or lets write negative reviews to Nier Automata
It's a great game, but duck you Square Enix, u made Deus Ex: Mankind Divided with microtransactions
For me everything is simple. For example, I like 2 Worlds II. I enjoy this game 7 years ago, bought game in steam store as a thanks for developer and leave positive review. Now devs made dlc with microtransactions. Will i rewrite my review (from positive to negative) or write negative reviews to all Topware Interactive games? No, i won't buy this dlc, thats all 😊
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Yeah, you're just repeating your point.
We both gave our opinions and obviously, we have differing moral points. Simple enough.
Good chat. :)
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How will this move turn out? No ordinary mods anymore? Even ban-list for those trying some?
If just the negative community get blocked by this policy, it doesn't matter for me, but removing mod-freedom do.
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They banned a single third party modding tool that was getting used maliciously.
They're not banning players for using normal mods. :U
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What mods were being used maliciously? Oh, you mean the commonly used hacks that don't use OpenIV? Oh, those ones! Right. My bad.
Take Two didn't do anything about the issue of hacking. Actually, it's still as prevalent as ever. GTA Online is a cesspool of hackers, yet banning a modding tool, not a mod, a damn modding tool that doesn't have anything to do with hackers gets taken down.
Of course, since you're claiming something like that, you have a few mods to name and such as well to prove your point. Otherwise, you'd be taking a publisher's word at its merit, which would truly be funny because then you'd also agree that they're under-monetizing their games :D
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I never said the mods were being used maliciously. Kindly keep your patronising tone to yourself. Also, leave that poor strawman alone, whatever did he do to you?
This 'modding tool' was described as a multi-purpose editor and archive manager. A brief skim of a linked thread on their forums mentioned they were having problems with people leaking patches. Put these two together and you have a concerningly large hole for cheat-makers to abuse. Determined 'hackers' won't find this an issue, but with a more user-friendly tool available for tinkering with files it certainly opens the doors that bit wider for dabbling folks. Yes, that is not it's intended usage, but it's still potentially very real side-effect of having such a tool freely available.
Yes, I am taking them on their word, because the availability of singleplayer mods with no drawback would be a big fat bonus to the playability and selling points of the game they're drawing income from, and the logic isn't hard to follow. However you have been claiming that Take Two haven't done anything about the issue of hacking without citing a source for this, and expect readers to take your word on that, where the logic isn't really apparent. You forget that the takedown of OpenIV is actually a sign they are in fact trying to do something, even if their efforts are clumsy and without much impact in the end.
All I was originally saying is that calling the takedown "banning mods" is a big lie of omission, and that is just totally unnecessary given the size of the actual misstep they did.
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I don't think Skyrim was even hit this hard when the paid mod fiscal happened.
It was. It was affected a lot more, actually, since it started with way under 100k reviews before the paid mods hit, so it went to low 60s or something. GTAV had like a quarter million reviews, vast majority positive.
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These revirews don't do anything though, the game is top 10 global top seller right now and I doubt that anything will change.
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Rockstar has nothing to do with the whole situation.
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I guess that is true. But I would think Rockstar could have stopped them if they wanted? Rockstar has a lot of power I'd think.
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maybe Rockstar didnt know that they will pull shit like that
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Yet they haven't done anything still. They actually support the decision, if you look at their statement. They even provide false facts that claim that OpenIV has anything to do with hacking. OpenIV doesn't even support online use. They were trying to avoid this same thing. Plus, the popular hacks that are even used today in excess, aren't reliant on OpenIV. That'd just be a ridiculous hindrance they'd be putting on themselves.
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Unlikely. That means Take-Two has a very confused modding policy, as they are very encouraging of the modding scene in Civilization 4/5/6.
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It deserves them. Not because of the mods - I don't even give a flying duck about mods. But because it's so damn greedy - even more than EA. They only have a few games and they do their best to milk them as much as they can. Stupid shark cards and such.
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+10000
That's the same reason I've stopped supporting them (and I've not bought GTA V on the PC). They treat customers like the word that we're all thinking about.
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And they haven't even given one duck to patch the bugs in their old games. Bully crashes for everyone on steam extremely often, but why would they care? They can instead make a new yacht which you can buy by giving a million dollars with your shark cards. xD -_- Screw microtransactions and whoever supports them. If they hadn't made Bully and GTA Vice City, I'd hardly even know this company. They make one game per century and try to milk it as much as possible. Plus, they never care about the PC gamers. They think we're all pirates and we don't deserve their games. Well, screw them, who cares about them anyway? At least Ubisoft, EA, etc., the more known greedy companies, made a lot more games that are really good and they care enough to fix their games' bugs.
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And let's not talk about how GTA IV runs on the PC, about its TWO DRMs (GFWL and Rockstar Social Club) and many other anti-consumers practices of this company. Maybe this "s**tstorm" is even late.
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Let's hope that people will screw all of Rockstar's games. >:D They've been an anti-consumer company for long enough. Let's hope that worthy companies, like CD Projekt Red, will start gaining more money than them. >:D
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Rockstar has been an anti-consumer company? How so? They've released tons of free content updates, that a lot of other publishers/developers would charge 5-10$ at least per DLC. And about shark-cards, a company exists to make money. Without profits, a company would cease to function and would stop making and publishing new games, new free content, etc. If they wouldn't sell sharkcards, they'd charge you for the DLC, as many others do. cough Bethesda cough (I don't have a problem with Bethesda charging for DLC, as the DLCs for Skyrim were great, but the recent DLCs for Fallout 4 were a disaster)
Which do you prefer? Most people don't even buy the sharkcards, other than streamers/youtubers, and other people with enough money to spare.
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Read above "And let's not talk about how GTA IV runs on the PC, about its TWO DRMs (GFWL and Rockstar Social Club)" !
Or how about the game being 4 years old and it is still 60E and the chepeast is 30 E ... but hey noobs will still buy because a crappy MP and after they buy they will rant that the MP is filled with hackers and the game is crap !
How about some remasters for GTA 1 ,2 3 Vice city and San Andreas !
Oooo and are comparing Bugthesda with RockCrap, damn the have the same business model , they do the same crap , they are much the same.
"They've released tons of free content updates, that a lot of other publishers/developers would charge 5-10$ at least per DLC." like for ex, and don't say something for the MP :V !
"And about shark-cards, a company exists to make money." are you saying this after 80M copies sold, OK if you say so but this is just greed also stupidity from the customers but hey why would they care :V !
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As far as the DRM and GTA IV goes, I had zero issues playing it years ago, and even when I play my Steam copy of it, I don't have a lot of issues.
30€ is cheap enough for a game of that size and replayability, I never regretted the 60€ I cashed up for it even when - keep in mind - my salary is only 300€/month.
They sold 80M copies, alright, but what now? In order to provide free DLC/content, they must have some way of having a constant stream of money. People had no issue buying every single expansion pack for WoW, and paying the subscription fee (if I recall well, it used to have a subscription fee - not sure if it still has it).
I agree that it's stupid that a lot of the new cars/boats/whatever are expensive, but you don't NEED to buy the sharkcards. Sure, it's a grind, but I feel pretty good once I finally farm enough money in-game to buy something I really wanted, and I prefer that to chucking 100$ to buy a damn yacht.
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My salary is 600 E ... but a game from 2013 should not cost 60 EUR sorry but this is the PC not console, if they want that kind of price they can stay on console meaning that they don't want the 15M that they sold on PC .
The didn't split the game SP and MP for it to stay 60 E for 4 years, you said updates for what MP the SP is the same. So they charge 60 EUR they also have micro-transactions , so it has AAA price being 4 years old and also acts as an Free to play with micro-transaction but has no servers no anti-cheat and the micro -trans are not so micro .
So you can't compare to WOW that is MP and every expansion gives you new maps or new mechanics so it is not the same ,and the subscription is for the servers and the GM's and the anti-cheat something that GTA V doesn't have !
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I'm sure they can live without the 15M of copies sold on PC, if they sold the rest of the 65M on consoles.
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You mean they don't want 15M copies , :)) ok if you say so !
Dude this a game that came in 2013, it was ported in 2015 ... so understand that , they got 15M for a ported old game , and the game was cheapeast as 30 EUR.
But hey what ever is not like this all matters :V !
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But the ported version is miles ahead from the first release ... We're getting sidetracked anyway, all I wanted to point was that they're getting much more hate than they probably deserved.
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Oh, they're actually "under-monetising" their games....
A bunch of idiots....
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Same happened with skyrim. Read the other day that bethesda was deleting the negative reviews regarding mods.
It's happening right now with topware because of the microntransactions with Two Wordls 2.... However Topware is a nobody and I think it's pretty lame and hypocrite that the same peopleis complaining now didn't complain whit the DOUBLE DRM (and, at the sime time, how they praise the first DRM, steam).
TakeTwo deserves the hate? Probably, but the solution is simple. They'll say PC players are little whiners, let's work only on consoles. Problem solved. RDR2 won't be on computer (I think it's never going to be anyway) and sonyers and xboxers would say in their respective forums than the PC is shiiiiiet and really expensive.
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Not only do they deserve it for the whole OpenIV thing, but also for their nonexistent anti-cheat engine. They got it coming.
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Their explanation for why they decided to take down the OpenIV looked like it was an attempt at making it look like they're trying to do something about the cheating problem. Not by actually doing something about the cheating problem, of course, but simply by going after an easy target, a scapegoat.
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I saw this yesterday when checking out required specs for the game. Honestly, I think it's a bit ridiculous modding got banned, but in the end, doesn't matter to me. The only GTA I ever really modded was Vice City, and it was years after initial release, simply for better graphics.
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Well, it's not longer part of the game they paid for.
Take 2 as been pretty scummy in the past, maybe not this much towards customers, but they have been petty assholes towards a lot of developers
https://techcrunch.com/2009/05/15/take-two-sues-3d-realms-for-not-finishing-duke-nukem-forever/
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Glad they decided to sell the IP with yet another unfinished Duke Nukem game, if only 3D Realms had done the same
And then sued them again for using, at the time, their IP for a new game
They where still fighting over Duke until quite recently, even though gearbox barely makes any use of it
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It was weak for video games in general,
Not as bad as Alien Colonial Marines, where Gearbox wasted the money on Borderlands, but they didn't get sued, since they had the nerve to sell it in a buggy mess, in that way fulfilling the contract
All great work
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Take Two made Hell: A Cyberpunk Thriller with Dennis Hopper ergo they can never be wrong!
That being said the move of TT was pretty shit and I might reconsider.
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Rockstar has been a piece of shit making gta v online pay2win so fuck them and fuck their shitty game.
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Rockstar seemed to not be very happy with what Take2 did either.
Take2 absolutely deserves a backlash for forcing the modding tools to be taken down though, considering people actually bought GTA 5 for the modding to at least some extent.
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https://www.change.org/p/rockstar-games-save-openiv
Here's the largest petition regarding the issue. It seems quite a few gamers are up in arms about it. There are about 84,070~ people playing at a time so it's quite a large number.
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Not a great choice but many games don't have any mod support & it is a huge amount of extra time/money to put that kind of feature in as well as opening the game up to all kinds of programming problems. Just have to go to some open world games like Saints Row or Just Cause for all kinds of crazy while others that are more serious go to those for that kind of experience.
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To be fair, they have never actually included mod support. They just gave it the thumbs up as in: It's fine. All mod tools have been made by third parties.
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Happy cake day!
Well, the problem here is that they removed something that was already there, not that they launched the game with poor modding support from the gate. So anyone who bought the game more for the mods than the main game itself will be SOAL.
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Rockstar didn't put any effort into adding modding support. In fact they actively made it harder to mod, which is the whole reason OpenIV was necessary to mod.
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The thing is mod support isn't something that needs extra time/money on the basic level. All you have to do to have mod support in your game is to leave certain files as "raw" as possible allowing users to mess with them and from there the time/resources spend will all be on the users side and the devs won't have to do anything. Now advanced mod support like modding tools etc take time and money but afaik GTA never had that, all modding tools like the one this topic is about are user made. It probably takes more resources to not have mod support since it requires packaging the game in a way that users won't be able to access the files as easily as they do now.
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Or visually ...
The green bar below 0 represents formerly positive reviews, that changed to negative. The rest are new reviews.
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Rockstar does NOT deserve it, Take two, however, does.
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Rockstar - no.
Take Two - yes yes yes.
And they recently purchased Kerbal Space Program. A game that is far more dependant on fanbase mods than Bethedsa games. I sincerly hope they will not ruin my favourite game. But because they're famous of doing do, I'm just backing up my KSP installation and turning off updates.
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You won't have to worry about your KSP mods because there isn't an online multiplayer component to KSP, and you don't need a third party tools to deal with your mods.
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I wouldn't be worried if that was the first time when T2 screwed up a good product. But they have some record in that regard. It is almost always toxic enviroment when publisher interferes with the developement. And that T2 rationalisation about multiplayer is just plain silly, because what they banned is purely single-player mod tool. Either it's just cover-up story or those guys are stupid and incompetent.
I'm just slightly worried because current KSP is in fact steam-independent. I still have 1.1.2 install moved away from steam because I was waiting for FAR to update to 1.2. Now I did the same with 1.3. But considering how KSP mods work, and T2 tendency to enforce user-unfriendly changes I really felt the need to secure my current game and all mods I use.
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When I looked briefly into the OpenIV site, two of the things it descriibed itself as was a file editor and archive manager. While the official use may be for singleplayer modding, its entirely plausible that it was acting as a vector to other things.
Though I suppose backing up your stuff on modded games is always a good idea. I dread to think what'll happen when I open Rimworld or Starbound now, and that's just with normal patching. :P
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You're right. It can be used for malicious purposes, just like kitchen knife.
I wonder if Takedown Two goes against 7zip next. Or maybe Unreal Commander. Both can be used either directly or via plugins to access content in game files.
I'm not playing GTA5 myself, but from my friends tell me, banning OpenIV is equivalent of Bethesda banning Nexus Manager.
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I wonder how accurate that comparison is then, because as far as I knew, you could use any mod without Nexus Manager. It would have just made it a bit more awkward to manage if you had a ton of them (conflicts, etc?). It'd be interesting to find out how many of the mods needed OpenIV as an absolute requirement, and how many of the outraged people actually used these mods (as opposed to those who were rallying at the lie of 'all mods banned!').
I remember how the enhanced visuals for games like Skyrim (the ENB related stuff) required the usage of a custom dll to work properly, and I remember seeing a video of an ENB set for GTAIV way back when. I wonder how deep that OpenIV could dig, if no other tool could do the same things. Skyrim for instance didn't have to worry about online play, so messing with deeper contents would be less of a 'threat'.
It's weird how with all this anger, these basic things aren't even clear to us. Being so enthusiastic, I would have hoped someone with the facts might have dropped in already to set the record straight.
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Fuck Rockstar and Take Two on the whole affair.
If Rockstar had been forward thinking and acting then there would be official mod support and Take Two would not have been able to do this.
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I think you guys need to watch this video. It's from GTA Series Videos. This should clear things up for those who don't know what's going on.
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Also, Rockstar doesn't deserve any of this. Take Two are the d***s here.
6/20/2017 Edit: Welp, it looks like Rockstar are sadly supporting T2 and from what I heard are straight out lying to us that OpenIV affects the online portion of the game. After reading discussions, banning OpenIV didn't do anything to hackers. There's also a speculation that lots of legit players (with some hackers thrown in) are getting either their online in-game money wiped or their characters reset. After couple of days later they tracked down and banned the REAL culprits aka the real hacks that modify the online portion.
(Next one below is speculation, don't take it as real evidence)
So why ban a mod that doesn't do anything to online portion of the game, but later ban the ones who are the real culprits while also screwing legit players? One reason actually. Monetization in the online portion. T2 are making billions of dollars off shark cards and they went the a**hole route by getting rid of the competition such as mods. They also exploited the system by making people buy shark cards if their character's money is gone or their stats completely wiped.
From what I know is that they won't stop this train wreck. They°ll just milk it as much as possible till it goes dry.
So it looks like it's not only T2 fault, but Rockstar's as well.
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One last thing. I can't believe there are people who are defending Take Two's decision. Did they forgot that there are games like Skyrim, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Oblivion, Mount & Blade, ARMA and many others that also have mod support? Jeez, some people either never heard of these games yet or simply changed their minds and are blindly following what publishers do.
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Do you have any idea how many people support, say, Valve through their crappy practices, and try to defend their every bad move with religious zealousity?
I mean, I see the same names always going full-defense mode when Valve screws something up again, trying to pass bad things as "good for us, but you're too stupid to see it, stupid"... yeah, sure, we're the blinded people here.
I doubt it'll be different for other companies, and it's very hard to believe they would actually do it willingly instead of being paid to do so. I still think most HAVE to be paid to be so dense.
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Of course I know that! Fanboys will exist and they can't be stopped, that's the reality of our world. They will support anything just to defend their favorite brand.
While we, the sane side of the community, are trying our best to convince the publishers that what they're doing is wrong. Take Valve's and Bethesda's paid mods fiasco for Skyrim. It only lasted a few days, because the business model sucked, nobody was happy, the reviews slammed the game and there were legal problems like people stealing mods from sites and are sold as their own (hmm... asset flppers?).
Sadly, in this situation the publisher T2 didn't care about the community, they didn't care about Rockstar's support on mods so T2 decided to completely destroy its own reputation by submitting C&D on the modding community. And to make this situation any more sadder, half of the entire GTA V community doesn't care about mods, so they attack the people who care. Why? Either they're fanboys of the publisher or they're just ignorant.
Will they revert the damage? Well, it entirely depends on the publisher. Maybe they will or maybe never. Because right now they only care about the Online portion and Shark Cards.
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Paid mods for Skyrim was a mess because they left the pricing up to the mod creators, and the exchange of mods had previously been free. Everyone and their dog suddenly charged for things that were installed on tons of machines in finely balanced setups, and those unwilling to pay would have to not only get used to not using the mods they like, but also struggle to find a way to remove them without crippling their saves (on a game that runs really long, no less). It was an ill-advised move but not necessarily a bad one at its core, but naturally only Valve and Bethesda got the flak for this, even when the choice lay with the content creators.
T2 really should have handled this better, even if only giving some pre-warning so affairs could be put in order and folks could take measures with their mod setups. However given the cheater problems GTAonline faced even a year ago, it's only natural that they'd want to plug any vector that cheaters were using. I don't see that as greed, but simply common sense. They should have tried to work with the OpenIV people first though, because if anything it would have been a great way to discreetly collect information on abusers and perhaps assist in countermeasures?
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For the paid mods fiasco, I agree. It wasn't a bad move, they tried to reward content creators for their hard work, but how it was executed leaves much to be desired.
As for T2, again I agree. Instead of banning the devs, they should be working with them to track down these hackers.
Take Overwatch or CS:GO for example, these games are highly targeted by hackers and are using hard to detect cheats. Worse, some of these cheats are sold online as we speak while others are distributed as private meaning anyone with money and zero intelligence can purchase these cheats just to become unstoppable for a little while. It only takes some smart individuals to find and expose these cheats and let the developers know about them so they can update their anti-cheat systems just to send a deadly ban wave.
It's a shame T2 is too paranoid to realize that mods such as OpenIV are not the problem but hacks the cheaters use. You can make an argument that hacks are hidden inside mods, but that's why we have the community to try them out, search and read the codes to determine if they do any damage towards online play. And most of the time, the devs and the community are honest, while the other half are posting mods with cheats on some obscure places that you wouldn't imagine to look, cause posting hacks on public mod sites is dumb and can get you banned very quickly there.
Of course, there are people who use mods as a base for cheats, but if that was true, these mods would've been banned from public mod sites by the curators, not from publishers.
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Currently overall 68% mixed on steam overall. With the recent reviews being Overwhelmingly Negative at 16%.with 36,884 reviews reviews.
Link
I don't think Skyrim was even hit this hard when the paid mod fiscal happened.
EDIT: See poll as Rockstar/Take-Two, and not as just Rockstar.
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