Opinions
Can someone confirm if the paid mods third-party DLC is DRM locked?
If it isn't, buy, then upload that sucker for the world to enjoy. Or if it's locked, do it anyway and let the crackers at it.
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Valve/Bethesda would have to completely rework the structure of the game files and block access to them entirely. That'd need a lot of time and work so I don't think the mod files are locked. Piracy is just a matter of Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V.
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i'm gonna add mod piracy to my pirate curriculum
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You were right it seems. Third party DLC is available for download now. Won't link because of SG's rules, but they're not even hard to find.
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Pretty sure this won't affect it as much as you think. Also I think plenty of mods will still be free not on steam.
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you mean " do you even know what a mod is ", you need to go step^by step or they wont understand, not everyone can use mod...
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I did. Nothing really hard if you happen to have a brain, some free time to spend and passion for a game.
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All everyone is crying about is "muh money" they have to pay for mods now. What about the people who get rewarded from their hard work doing these mods? In some cases massive overhauls? I'm ok with this. Don't like it? Don't buy it.
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There's a difference between asking donations, charging money for a huge addition to a game, and charging for Early Access Horse Armor.
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"What about the people who get rewarded from their hard work doing these mods?"
You mean Valve and Bethesda? Cause they get 75% of the income. The modder only gets a measly 25% . And that's only after they exceed a specific total(I've seen it in replies to range from $100 to $400 so not sure which one's the correct one)
So yeah I'm not touching a single thing from the paid Workshop shit. If the modder also uploads it to another source for free then I'd gladly donate directly to him and not give a cent to Valve since they had the audacity to set those rates
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For calling yourself an AvidWriter, you suck at it.
Tell me Sir, how in the world this system helps the modders to get rewarded?
With only 25% of the revenues going to their pockets and the rest going to Valve and Publishers, I don't think this is better than a simple Endorsement button at the Steam Workshop; I mean, Valve claims that this is a measure to support modders right? Then, why taking fucking 75% of their hard work?
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25% > 0%
Maybe because Valve owns Steam and any company is going to find ways to increase profits? I'd love to see some of you own a business, haha, well for the few months until you went bankrupt.
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That argument 25% > 0% - that applies for Bethesda and Valve aswell...
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Why? You're modifying Bethesda's game and uploading it to Valve's servers that you also downloaded said game from. (possibly for a deal of up to 80% off, if it was on sale, which happens frequently)
They could just as easily of said "paid mods only on Steam" and charged subscriptions to upload/download their creations for sale...
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And the community can easily say dream on.
The point being that 25%>0% holds true for all parties does not change by saying "but Bethesda made the game..."
Bethesda got paid for their game. They have their money.
They did not get paid before.
Do they deserve a cut? Sure...
Do they deserve the largest cut? No. Not without putting in some effort to improve the tools.
They'd need to do some serious overhauling of the modding tools and make it work a lot better before that would be the case.
Golden geese only exist in fairy tales SinniX...
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It would be better if you had the option to pay for it or don't
also if the creators get at least a 50% not 25%
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Yep adding an easily accessible button to donate via Steam Wallet would be a great addition. Nothing special, quick and hassle free. If donating would be made easy and literally just a "click away" I think people would be more enticed to donate. (provided that there is quality content worth throwing your money at.)
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And that right there will be the key breaking point of this feature.
Nobody installs 'just one mod'.
And very few people are going to pay if they have no assurance that the mod will work within their setup.
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i'll keep using as i use ea origin. the only difference now is it gets no praise for me, it's just a company that offers services and products. just like the supermarket 2-blocks away from my home.
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First: I hope that all the people that are complaining about this announcement haven't spent any money on virtual (cosmetic) items for games like Tf2 or Dota2 because otherwise, you are measuring the situation with a different stick. We are used to free mods and that's the reason this sort of news comes as a shock but I believe that if the content is worth it, buying it makes sense. Imagine an awesome mod (whatever comes to mind), now, would you buy it if it was from the game's developer as official dlc? Your answer shouldn't change if the maker of that content is a fan of the game, I love free updates but if we accept dlc, we should accept it even if it' fan-made. Personal example: I love Binding of Isaac: Rebirth, I'm looking forward to the official expansion but if an incredible fan-made update comes along, I wouldn't mind paying for it (because I would buy it if it came from the game's developers)
The only issue I find is the idea of the steam workshop being flooded with garbage and mods that haven't been made by the uploader.
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It isn't a bad idea to buy a mod, but there are a couple of issues with a current model and this particular game.
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Skyrim mods are capable to make your game unplayable and break it in many ways, especially when installed in the huge amounts and without deep knowledge how all this stuff works together. There are ways to partially fix this issue with tools which will automatically fix load order and generate compatibility patches for you and you can throw in a couple of hand-made compatibility patches for a few mods, but there is still no guarantee you will be able to beat the game or it won't crash here and there due to specific combination of mods or the mod will work at all due to lack of some compatibility patches for mod which loads earlier. For example there are breakable potions mod but it won't work if some other mod will change anything in the existing potions and it won't work on potions added by other mods unless they will be manually patched for that. And it's very likely that you will want to use mod-managers which will prevent mod files to happily overwrite each other and create yet another bunch of unpredictable issues for you.
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Modders will receive only 25% of the price and Valve with publishers will take the rest. This alone is just a huge no way.
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- I hadn't really thought about it after reading about the 24 hours return policy but you are right, the game could break at a later time and you would have no support. Still, if we keep the idea of paid mods I really can't think of a solution right now (because offering refunds without a restriction leaves a lot of room for people to abuse the system)
- When the whole selling fan-made items started in Tf2 I made a thread in the official forums after finding out that valve kept 75% of the earnings and most repliers told me that it was fair (including a guy that had an item accepted in the game). I still believe that a 50-50 situation would be fairer.
I think that both items and mods should have similar payments for the creator (not the same as games because those don't depend of another game to sell).
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Actually in case of TF2 it could be considered relatively fair since the game is free to play for everyone. Valve need money to keep TF2 servers running and update the game. However, Skyrim is not free and it is already finished. There are no new DLC and no patches anymore and it doesn't need servers online to run. So... For which forking reason anyone have to pay Bethesda even 25% of the mod's price? Well, they deserve a bit for creating a market for these mods but they already got their money when they sold the game. Demanding much more isn't fair at all. It's just being greedy.
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You are right, it was dumb to compare with a free to play game when it comes to earnings. The idea of the developers getting a piece of the cake can encourage them to make more modding tools available (actually, they should only get a piece IF they make tools to help modders*). The actual percentages are up to dispute but I really think modders deserve a good piece of the cake for all the time they put into making it; and that's the reason why I think charging for mods isn't so bad, people actually worked to make it, we can't get mad when they want some monetary retribution.
*and yes, they should also try to keep updating their games while they are at it.
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Totally agree man, sadly Valve has become way too greedy lately, fucking over customers in different regards, this was just the last straw.
Now I understand why the other day I launched Skyrim and it said most of my mod subscriptions were gone and deactivated from the game
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I think I have one more thing to point out although this thread is pretty dense right now and this will go un-seen.
The BIGGEST issue out of all of this isn't the fact that modders are over-pricing the hell out of the mods already( 8 dollars for Midas Magic is fucking bullshit and if you think otherwise, you're a tool). The issue is that the modders are getting fucked over by Valve(and by extension, Bethesda although that part makes sense) for work they spend their spare time on only to make 25% of their profits and they still have to make $400 in profits to even start to get the money in general. I WANT to support modders on MY terms. I don't NEED to support the modders on THEIR terms.
The MAJORITY of ANY modding community started modding for the fun of it and not for money since, as Total Biscuit said it perfectly well, they couldn't have done it legally. So, what, all of the suddenly they are entitled to being paid for it? Bullshit. You went into it knowing you would only get paid through donations. To bring up how 'entitled' they are is fucking cowardly and pathetic. How DARE you try and use the most common social bullshit views to support this when everybody knows it's a desperate crawl(for most, at the very least FUCKING 8 DOLLARS FOR MIDAS MAGIC) for more money and Valve is getting most of it. Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic and everyone knows it.
Honestly, both sides are being silly and desperate to 'win' this 'argument'. There is A LOT more going on in the background than the cover shows, especially with how modding started in the first place and the quality of mods in general. I wouldn't pay more than $1 for an armour mod ever. I wouldn't even pay 1 cent for a fucking armour mod. I don't pay for cosmetics and addition content that isn't expansive(new lands, etc.)
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Yes, I'm very passionate about topics like this. Why? Corporations fuck over people in real life every single day. Valve is no different. As of late, they have been the shittiest company out there in terms of the video game industry. I'm not going to sit back and be indirectly insulted because I'm not accepting this scheme as fair entitlement or even fair at all. I'm not going to be ignorant and ignore the important facts.
In the end, all I can personally do is throw my opinions around but this whole business is ridiculous and it has everyone at each other's throats for simple opinions.
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The biggest issue for me is the fact that Valve expects to make that cash without enforcing their platform.
We've already seen how they deal with Steam Early Access...
This will be an even bigger mess.
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i found an issue. waiting the 2.1 version..
btw.. i dont see torrent in the poll, then no vote
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I wish they would go with a donation system instead of pay-to-download.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198067954361/recommended/72850/
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Where's your God now?
The single most disgusting thing about this for me, is the complete disingenuity. The balls to try and say it's to "support modders". I mean it's just incredible that they say that. If it was remotely, even fucking slightly about that, it wouldn't be 25% to the modders. 25% to the modders is the best reason on the planet not to pay for a single mod. It's the utter fucking greed that really disgusts me. It's fucking appalling.
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+1 They might raise it to 30% due to all of this drama! Oh, the humanity! Bad press!
It's hard to ignore something like this. I honestly don't think I can support Steam without feeling conflicted, at all. Their deals are 'alright' but wow... This is just... Bad.
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Exactly Sir, this is a typical business "lie".
I remember those days when Gaben talked like a Messiah about PC gaming and such. But those days are long gone, It looks now like a race against time about getting richer and richer. Sadly, a lot of people keep thinking that this individual is the same as before, but power corrupts people no matter what.
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Well, I have a question to propose. When the quote of him basically saying 'We will make HL3 when we FEEL like it', we being the company/development team/what-have-you, did anyone think that it was being said in a good way?
P.S. I looked and I can't find the article or the thread here on the forums but it WAS PCGamer.
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Not sure if someone mentioned it before but there is also a petition going on (not that i think it will have any inpact...)
http://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop
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I'm genuinely puzzled about this new turn. I mean, most mods I see are either real people in the thing or some other company's stuff added in. The example Steam showed was single sword mods for $0.99 a pop. All I could think was "what is this, an mmo cash shop?"
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It was the first thing I thought of to compare it to. I mean, $1+ individual weaponry? Maybe armor or a pet?
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Here's hoping for firework-effect items!
Oh, wait, now I'm just giving them more ideas. Darn.
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At least I can blame Valve directly for that. They actually made the items. Huehuehue
EDIT: Wait, do they still add user-made items?
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... they add user-made items?
It's been a while since I last played TF2 due to server issues.
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They've added user-made TF2 items before, IIRC. Still, the items are there and there's no reason not to profit off of that.
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Well...some people do like it for protection,but trading limits pervents good traders from profiting,but also pervents(partically)scammers,thevies and such. Now the only way to profit is not to sell what you earned unless if offer pays more than yours. Like i do currently in TF2 so i can buy even more metal and such without locks.
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75%? They make money on the continued sales of the game, now they want to profit off work they didn't even do? GTFO!
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So how can those modders do the job without the base game? It's modders that should be grateful with a chance to earn money.
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The point was, modding the game increases its longevity and sales, hence Valve/Beth already making money from modding regardless, now they want to profiteer through work that isn't even their own... Modders should be grateful for the scraps valve throws them? It should be the other way around; the company's getting no more than 25%... Them being grateful for all the all the people doing the work for them, for free, and making them money. I'm much more in favor of the Patreon model.
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I partially blame greenlight for this.
Pretty sure the people behind the scenes @steam thought something along the lines of "There are crap games being put on steam from greenlight that manage to sell quite well, if this many people want this kind of crap games released on steam, then i guess we can push this a little further and get some more coin from their pockets by messing with the modding community."
They only do this because it works, a good amount of people is against it but also a good amount of people out there can't use their brains properly, the kind of people i'm talking about here is the one type that usually buys pre-orders and season passes without thinking before the act. These people are actually supporting the new ways of the gaming industry, it is sad. Gaming industry might be advancing in terms of realism but it is also turning into a big pile of trash.
Ask yourselves this, would they really make this move without knowing there will be potential profit coming from this? I think not.
I rest my case about this topic, what they have done is sad. Chances are that this will work out and the only change they will make will be related to the slices for each side in the field.
PS: PC masterrace? No... i think not. Not anymore if this keeps going.
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Where are people getting their "facts"?
Q. Is there a minimum revenue I must earn before I can receive a payment?
A. Yes. There are costs associated with issuing each individual payment as well as potential bank fees charged to you upon receiving money that make it prohibitive to pay out for small amounts of money. Therefore, we may hold your payment until a minimum of $100 payout is earned.
(Not $400 as stated numerous times in this thread)
Try any mod, Risk Free
It's still important to spend a little time learning about any product you are about to purchase. But, if after purchase you find that a mod is broken or doesn't work as promised, you can easily get a refund of that mod within 24 hours of your purchase. View the full refund policy here.
Free, Paid, or Pay What You Want
With over 24,000 free mods available for Skyrim in the Steam Workshop, there will always be lots to do and explore for free. Now you can also find mods with a specified price, or mods where you can choose how much you wish to support the creators. The price is up to the mod creators.
(So, it's the modders choice whether or not to release it as a free or paid mod...and player's choice whether or not to buy mods or download free ones)
Fact is, it's their platform to sell games/DLC/mods/whatever on. You want 100% of your mod's profits? Make your own Steam and sell your mods on it.
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That 24 hour graceperiod is unenforceable.
Either people will download, copy and refund. Or alternately people will be unable to properly test mods in a larger configuration within that 24 hour period.
Regardless of which way you go, since very few serious modders stick to a small handful of mods (as is the case with the users that Steam Workshop traditionally caters to), this system has some serious holes in it.
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How do you know it isn't enforceable? I have a sneaking suspicion they may have considered that people would download, copy and refund and have a way around that? I'd assume they're not complete morons ...
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You would either have to bake some form of DRM into each mod. (Unlikely...)
Or you would have to restrict how the refund mechanic works. (Which would defeat the point of a 24 hour grace period.)
BEST CASE What they could do is make it so you can only purchase and refund each mod once.
So you couldn't get it again later for updates.
But even that is flawed as there are plenty of mods that are constantly growing and changing, perhaps I try a mod today and don't like it, but 6 months from now it has changed and does something I really like.
Well shucks, I refunded it already so I can't buy it anymore (or if I CAN buy it, I can't refund it again.)
No matter which way you turn it, there is no 'easy solution'.
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You're talking like they don't have this planned out yet ... it's already active. Your "best case" scenarios are silly.
It's as simple as if you have a mod and it's not been refunded, it can be activated in-game. (if the mod changes 6 months later and you don't like it, too bad; you can't refund Skyrim 6 months after playing it, correct?). Don't see how or why you are complicating that. Really don't see why or how it could be done any other way.
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Steam Workshop Refund Policy
Valve offers this refund policy exclusively for initial purchases of user-generated content made directly via its Steam Workshop page. In particular, this refund policy does not apply to purchases of tradable Workshop Items on the Steam Community Market, to transfers of items between users via the trading system or to in-game purchases of Workshop items.
In order to request a refund, click the "Get Refund" option on the item's Workshop page, which is accessible from your Steam inventory page (in the Steam Client, select View->Inventory from the top menu). Refund requests must be made within 24 hours from the purchase of a Workshop item. The remaining time for an individual item is displayed on the item's Workshop page.
Once your refund request has been submitted, you will lose access to the content for that Steam Workshop item and any other Steam Workshop items associated with the refunded transaction.
Refunds will be credited exclusively back to the Steam Wallet from which the original purchase was funded. For reasons of fraud prevention, your Steam Wallet will be credited for the transaction within two to three days from the time you submitted your refund request.
Valve may restrict an individual user's eligibility for future refunds if there are indications of an abuse of the refund system. In this case, the restriction will be clearly communicated to the user and only apply to later purchases.
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"...until a minimum of $100 payout is earned.
A modder won't earn a $100 payout until $400 in revenue is generated, since the modder only gets 25%. Its basic math.
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Yes, but people in here are making it sound like they have to have $400 in their wallet before they can take it out.
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Frankly I DO believe there are some potentially good points should mod authors stand to financially benefit from their content.
The way I see it, is that it could follow a model akin to what Twitch and Youtube provide for its content creators.
Enabling some skilled mod authors to make a living off of it, while others can get a bit of pocket change to pad their purse.
That said, I do agree with you. If you're modding your game to the extent that many do - and we're looking at 100+ mods.
Then paying for them becomes problematic. The mods would start costing more than the game itself.
But perhaps more importantly, to get this running you need to jump through hoops and run around trying to get the load order and other things 'just right' - there's often a bunch of research to be done for compatibility and so on.
The "problem" here with using Valve's Steam as a platform quickly becomes apparent.
75% of the money goes to Valve and the game developer (in Skyrim's case Bethesda) - and while I won't say that they shouldn't get a cut, I'm of the opinion that this split is unreasonable.
Not only because the developer no longer provides an active role in this equation and we've already paid for the game (people say mod authors should be happy because 25% is more than 0% well isn't that even more true for Bethesda who didn't even have to MAKE the mod to begin with....)
But we already know that Valve has a trackrecord of not providing adequate support.
The mentioned flustercluck that is Steam Early Access being a fine example of Valve failing to manage its own distribution platform.
If anything, I would see the mod authors come to some kind of agreement with a platform such as NexusMods and resolve things there.
It would be easy enough to set up some form of revenue system through advertising and potential subscriptions or even a more enforced donation system there. And its not even that unheard of to include Bethesda in this for obvious legal reasons...
Not only would this provide a healtier environment for the mods, but there would be actual support... Rather than the default "You have to be with the content creator for that Valve has no responsibilities in this." customer service response.
Then there is the refund option. How does Valve intend to enforce this? Either people are going to pay, download and copy the mods and refund. Or alternately mods are going to fail to work as people set up any extensive modding configuration.
Should Valve enforce some kind of DRM - then you can also forget that modding config as these are generally impossible without mod manager tools such as NMM or MO.
Whichever way the winds will blow. Valve is really dropping the ball once again.
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Totally with you with this one, when i logged into steam and saw the new workshop bullshit they are throwing at us. wtf. no, just no. pay for mods, its not a total game conversion and stuff, its something some guy wanted to make in a game, you dont make mods to make money. its just stupid.
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My face soured when I saw that paid bundle in the Skyrim workshop today. Good modders always received donations for their work, now Bethesda/Valve and probably more companies will get a cut from that. That is greedy and lazy however you look at it. Many of these modders use custom textures/features which are borrowed from the works of other modders. I wonder how that's going to work. I know of one mod which is just pulled from the workshop because of this issue.
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Gabe has basically turned the workshop into Greenlight 2.0 now with more shit flowing through the works than ever before. I used to be a pirate before I finally gave in a joined the steam bandwagon many months ago and now I buy what games I can to support the devs. Mods were that special little joy I had on the side that were created by a loving community who cared deeply for the game and their work had shown it.
But with gabe poisoning the well of good-will and dedication with greed and money the modding communities all across the board will start going down the drain. Sure the workshop always had the occasional goof who would either steal other people's mod to pass of as their own but it was barely noticeable. Now every hack and scammer around will flood the workshop with garbage hoping to make a quick buck. In that regard it's gonna be more like google plays landfill with miles and miles of shit and garbage as far as the eye can see. Those same bots that harass steam users will be reprogrammed for uploading to the workshop. And valve expects the community too police this.....does he not remember or even look at Greenlight?!!!!
And I look back at my old pirate days and think "I never would have stood for any shit like this things were so much easier back then." Now I too am hooked onto this virtual dick measuring contest called steam. Where as when I was a pirate I would do it for the love of the game, now I just hoard complete garbage. Stuff I never would have given a second look at suddenly taking up space in my library. Let it be known that a pirate is not always a thief but a truly enlightened lover of games.
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Discuss.
[UPDATE]
Seems like the mod authors themselves are really enjoying the new system. This is all so good for modders/players alike huh? Nuff said.
[IMPORTANT PART]
So yeah RIP Skyrim modding pretty much, trading is dead/dying, region locks are getting crazier every day and heck even the TF2 economy is pretty much gone (I just throw it in the pile). Fear not we still have a shitty, laggy slow client, inconsistent download speeds and Steam servers collapsing during bigger events/sales or just whenever they feel like it. Outrageously bad support, big profile Early Access scams and failures (Spacebase df-9, WarZ, Stomping Land). Complete lack of quality control and responsibility over Greenlight (and in turn store content).
[TL;DR PART]
To tell the truth, I'd be fine with the rest of the issues, I could live with region restrictions, Early Access, Greenlight etc as they do not directly affect my personal gaming experience (although I do disapprove of them and I happily express my opinion)
Introducing paid modding is the last straw and it is way over the line. It directly kills off the most loved aspect of gaming for me. I am one of those special people who prefer modding games to playing them. I am already supporting modders over at the Nexus, but I will not pay £400-500/game to get all the 100+ mods I love to configure, test and use. I don't think it is unreasonable. If you don't have a clue about modding in general, or you are not a mod user then I'd recommend that you refrain from repeating popular comments like "finally modders get paid for their hard work" etc. it'll just make you look silly, you obviously have no clue.
More on modding (Skyrim Specific)
Thank you for expressing your opinion in a civil manner. I understand that this is a controversial area and might be grounds for heated debate but please refrain from insulting each other.
Also the poll is just a joke.
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