Is it just me, or wasn't Youtube originally meant for indie content developers and amateurs to share their videos that they like to share with others. Correct me if I'm wrong, sharing implies giving for free. They've turned it now into a semi-profession to a B-list professional site so that these B-list or lower people can make money without having to prove themselves worthy of getting on traditional mainstream media sources..
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these are the channels effected though. They are not immune even though they were priorly screened before getting to this point. It is a process to get ad revenue. . . it isn't easy and most of the time people do get a no. Angry Joe and TB have both been hit along with many others they are the ones with backup networks and ties to the industry the issue is the little guys being hit.
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This will hopefully get resolved soon for them.
As for adblock users such as myself, i'm still waiting for one that supports different youtube channels as filter (one that doesn't require you to actually load a video from their channel page), other than that, i do support them by providing feedback, liking and sharing those videos i find interesting. (and don't worry about the insult, some people may be offended, some others won't, you can't please everybody)
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I'd love to be able to filter individual channels as well. Until then, I have to whitelist Youtube.com for the duration of watching the content I support.
I'm still muting the audio and watching another video while the pre-video ads play. Damn things are TOO LOUD.
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In my opinion "youtubing" should have never been the primary source for someone to earn their money.
Yes, they could do it for the money and grant them a small income. But they should have always kept a real job.
ps, i use adblock for several years no and i see no downside to it whatsoever. Waiting for 10+ seconds befor a video starts LOL, i wonder why some people in 2013 still dont have ad block.
pps youtube died when they merged it with google plus. Not with this silly update that only affects a handful of people.
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I think your first paragraph is just WRONG, ads would still be there, Youtube would get all of the money out of it, content would suck extremely, most Youtubers spend nearly every single minute for Youtube, so it is what they are working, and it's not making less sense than doing any other average job, just because you say so.
I love Youtube, not as a whole because it has it's flaws, lots of them actually, but I think Youtubers have their rights to do that as a job, because you know what?...People should be able to do, what they love to do with a few limits of ethics and law.
Also,what's a real job for you?
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As any product, the consumer (in this case the viewer is the consumer) should always have the right to decide if their product is worthy of the income. If their product is worthy of it, then I'll spend the 10 seconds to play the ad while I go get a cup of coffee or use the john so they get that ad revenue.
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You think Youtubers don't work hard to make and edit their videos? Well, some of them don't, but many do, so I don't see why can't this be considered a real job.
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How hard exactly ;-) On let's say a typical gamer video(I'm thinking one of the standard lets plays with uncut gameplay and some unscripted/spontaneous narration chatter as things happen, but am open to alternate versions of standard or gamer video). 9-5 kinda deal? Part time? What?
Lemonade stand?
(in which case i must find the article about a woman complaining her son's lemonade and mango stand was shut down for lack of a business license which later had a revision that the son was 40)
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Yea, pewdiepie doesn't really do much IMO. But what about, let's say, Tobuscus? He has 3 channels, he posts daily lps, daily vlogs and weekly random vids, which include animations, songs, and all other kinds of shit. They need to think of an idea, record it, edit it etc, etc. and you can't really say that's a 10 minute job.
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This. Post-production alone (if done well) can take hours and days to get a proper piece out of. Many folks do not appreciate that as work, but it is.
We used to spend hours trying to get perfect transitions in our spots. Sometimes it came down to shifting frames one way or another. It was mentally grueling work. Definitely not play.
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Actually i think he has a point , especially when some of those youtubers quit their real job to put full efforts on the channel. We are talking about a media
like TV that can have a huge downside: will people still follow you after a certain number of years ? What will happen after ? It looks like that many of them
underestimate this .
I can 't really see a bunch of users watching a 60 years old guy playing videogames and shouting on the microphone.
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So you're defining media creation as not being a "real job", then?
Your point is speculative. It's like saying, "Tom Cruise did a bunch of sex-symbol, fast-living movies at age 28. People aren't going to want to watch him when he's 50." Turns out...not so much.
These guys are no different. They may change over time, or maybe 60-year-olds will watch other 60-year-olds play games. Neither of us know.
TV has a huge downside because if people stop watching you, ad revenue goes down and the numbers no longer work. That's the opposite of what we're talking about here.
The guys that quit their "real job" to do this full time are good enough to make as much as their real job, or take the risk in making a little less but know they can build to same/more doing what they love.
Their revenue stream rug has been pulled out from beneath them (although probably temporarily).
There are millions of jobs out there no different than what these guys do. But most of them have revenue stream systems that are stable enough to count on. This upended their system for no good reason.
They've worked as hard or harder than most of us.
Your disdain is misplaced, IMO. And I'm not understanding the validity of your argument, but willing to listen.
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I'll go for the longer version.
The problem with youtubing (or similarly, blogging) and trying to make a living out of it is about being a newly arised job that has still to be regulated by international laws (that is, actual laws about copyrighting and using contents have been outdated by the internet and needs to be revised) and basically everybody see an opportunity to make cash, from the small users to the biggest companies. This new YT's flagging thing is a natural update to how this type of job works, it's how economy goes after all. I'm just saying that is a bit risky to put full efforts in a field born in the recent years, because is like investing on a newly quotated company without knowing past history.
"TV has a huge downside because if people stop watching you, ad revenue goes down and the numbers no longer work. That's the opposite of what we're talking about here."
Isn't that how Youtube revenue works? Like i said, if people will stop following you, your career is basically over. That's why i think that investing purely on a Youtube channel is kinda wrong, like the lemonade stand example posted above: you can milk extra cash with it, but you won't go too far with it, even by spending over 8 hours a day in producing lemonade.
That is, i'm talking about working with Youtube. The situation is actually different if you use it to gather a fanbase and then moving to an indipendent website in which you can make money out of ads without the need of dealing with YT's bullshit or various merchandise, like the AVGN or an italian youtuber called Farenz did, which is like moving to your own lemonade shop.
In short, i don't see youtubing much different that farming bitcoins or Steam trading, both of them can require lots of work and they work good for extra incomes, but nothing more.
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Yes. It's how YT works. It's how TV works.
But my beef with your post is putting down YT content as being different than "real jobs". It isn't.
And we're talking about content providers that are making a GOOD living doing this. NOT struggling actors. That was my point. These guys are good at what they do. And if you make six figures at a lemonade stand, then more power to you. Some of these guys do. This isn't the Mickey Mouse shit you're making it out to be. Thus the beef with YT. If they were lemonade stands, they wouldn't care as much, and you wouldn't be getting public press releases from Deep Silver being issued.
Different if you've gathered a fan base? How do you think people gather fan bases? Do they magically appear? They use any means they can find, and work hard at it.
I don't know anything about bitcoin farming or Steam trading, but if you're good at something and love it and can make a living at it legally, then I commend you for working hard to do what you love and applaud your success. I sure as hell don't call you a lemonade stand operator.
I've personally formed two businesses out of thin air at this point, and I have a bit of a sore spot for folks that shit on entrepreneurs and tell them to "get a real job". That sounds dangerously close to what you're saying.
Risk/reward. But these folks are legitimate media content creators and have a valid complaint.
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really I think people only watch tom cruse movies because hes in literally every movie. they could cast any random jackass for 1/100th of the cost and people would watch it. just for some reason even movies he doesn't fit in pick tom cruse.
its like saying people love internet explorer because its got so many users.
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Lol. I'm not disagreeing, except for the part about people watching it. Not nearly as many people would watch many of his movies if he hadn't done those early ones.
I'm saying that more eyes = more revenue. That's how the ad model works. And Tom Cruise is worth more than some random action movie extra.
And IE may/may not be worth more in ad revenue depending on eyes and demographics.
I'm not saying they're better, but that they're worth more. See also: Justin Beiber.
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I stopped looking TV because of ads (when I really want to watch something quite live, I always wait for a 10-15mn delay before watching, in order to be able to "forward" my DSL player when ads start). People who want to earn money with youtube ads have made their choice, not mine, so don't ask me to feel like I have to back them if I don't wanna see a jerk in the mirror. You feel bad if you don't watch the ads ? Sorry, that's your matter. For my part, I don't. At all. By the way, I'm not a hardcore youtube watcher, and when I go there, it's quite never to see gaming videos :)
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I don't get it. The top subscribed channels are gaming channels. If they start taking away content from these people then guess what happens? We stop watching videos and if we stop watching videos NO ONE MAKES MONEY!. Google loses money from the ads and so do the youtubers. This is a lose-lose situation for EVERYONE. Recently Google has seriously just been shooting themselves in the feet over and over and over again. I just don't get it. Do they seriously want to kill their company or something?
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Haven't you heard they're working on Google Video again?
/sarcasm
(By destroying Youtube they would force everyone to switch to their "much superior" video streaming, using something with their own name even if they already own the other.)
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That could also double as a SOPA/PIPA/ACTA warning video. This needs to be seen.
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I am a BIG proponent of using Adblock on youtube. Am I taking income away from content publishers? Yeah. But this is how I see it. If you all were forced to watch a 30 second to a minute long video everytime you just walked into a store, regardless of whether your are going to buy or not, would you? No. Whatever happened to Ars Gratias Artis? If you think your content is worthy of you making money off of it, then start selling merchandise, take advantage of itunes or stuff. If I like something on youtube, something worthy of my money, I will go into the video description and look to see if they are selling anything. But expecting to be paid whether I like your crap or not, is arrogant and is the leading cause as to why Hollywood is pumping out 99% garbage nowadays. The only good parts of the movies are in the trailers. Youtube was originally created for people to share their works to get noticed, or just for the sake of artistry, not to sit on their asses. This is actually why I don't go to Youtube that often anymore, except to watch a select few things that I already know about and like, because I see it full of people who forget that what they are doing is art, not a get rich scheme.
I'm a gamer (wouldn't be here if I wasn't) but 90% of the "Gamer videos" I see on youtube is basically people playing the game while commenting on it. It actually reminds me of going over "that friend's" house who wants to play video games when you were a kid, but only 1 player games, and never wants to give up the controller so that you can have a go, so you have to sit there for several hours at a time watching them play a game while twiddling your thumbs. Sorry, but that isn't worthy of making money in my opinion.
The other 10% are reviews of games, most of which are either fanboys/girls gushing about their favorite games while disliking other games with no objectivity what-so-ever, or just parroting what other review sites say.
Of course there are exceptions to these rules, and guess what, those exceptions are the ones that I actually will go to their websites off of youtube and see if their selling stuff to support them.
Giving Ad Revenues to Youtube contributors is what killed Youtube, not anything else. And losing income because there is a copyright argument shows that their content is not original to begin with, thus further making them unworthy of receiving that monetary compensation.
TL;DR: I recommend the opposite, Keep that adblock on and keep going to Youtube to give your FU to Youtube and the unoriginal money hungry 'contributors' who don't really create anything of value to the site.
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I'm more and more on the side of using adblock on youtube for videos screwed over. . . but I still loath the idea of not supporting people who entertain you. . . not going against your opinion nor snuffing it out at all . . . I'm agreeing with you. Though I do think you are being a bit unfair to must of the YouTube content out there. . content like bro team and Yahtzee. . both are part of something bigger, yes, but they did start as that 90% you so love to point out aren't worth a penny.
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You are 100% correct here. I see youtube as something more similar to walking down a the street through a sidewalk art show that many cities put on. You can look at all the paintings and sculptures etc. you want, but unless you really like it, why should you have to buy it or pay to see it. If the art is god awful, there should be no income. In this case, what I'm advocating is checking the description box on the shows you like because many of the bigger publishers have their own sites and usually sell their own things. Case in point. I am a really big fan of Oxhorn's Machinama. So, I went to the link in his description and bought his "Christmas for Geeks" album, which has now become a tradition the wife and I listen to for Christmas. I'm all for that. What I'm not for is the fact they get paid for me just clicking their link. Movies work this way too, you like what they show you in the Trailers, you go see the movie, and you pay to see it there. You like what band is playing on the radio, you go out and buy their album (I listen to pandora now because I don't want to listen to the ads anymore too, and I use netflix instead of television because I don't want to support what I don't like).
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Riiiiight. But who is paying for those movie trailers to be at the beginning of the movies? What about product placement in the movie? And how is a movie trailer (advertisement!) any different than a YouTube spot? I mean other than a similar product being advertised?
Who is paying for the FCC licensing and air time for those songs you hear on the radio?
I don't disagree that there are certain forms of advertising that are more intrusive or more offputting than others, but you simply don't get media for free...because someone has to pay for it. YouTube is no different.
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The movie production companies are paying for the movie trailers to sell their movies. Product placement in movies is a sure fire way of preventing me from buying the movie because I want art, not commercialization. Youtube spot are forced. I can avoid watching movie trailers if I choose. As far a the movie trailers prior to the start of the movie, that's when I go to the concession stand and get my snacks for the movies. And yes, I really am that anal about avoiding unsolicited advertisement. To the point that I'm the jackass that has "No Solicitors" sign on my door if I live in a place that has a private entrance and take the time to actually get taken off of call lists. The only radio I generally listen to is public broadcasts due to my desire to avoid commercialization. It's a political/economic hatred for me.
Youtube used to be about the little guy sharing their ideas and creations for the hope of getting noticed, now, it's just another form of cable t.v. that I only go to for specific things that I really can't get elsewhere, or do not want to spend my time looking for.
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Yes they are. Which means they are advertising to you. You're okay with the movie theater advertising to you after you've paid for a ticket but not okay with YouTube doing it when you haven't?
You can also avoid watching spots on YouTube by doing the same thing. Mute/leave/etc.
And unless you're watching all independent movies, you almost certainly have been subject to product placement in movies. What if you really like a move with product placement.
I'm the same as you with call lists and to a lesser extent, door-to-door folks, but that's in my home, and not on my schedule.
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Apparently zooming in on my face makes the Santa hat disappear.
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Hmm. I agree that there is a lot of junk on YouTube that isn't inherently original.
But like schalart, I think there is also some value there. Folks that are making their own music videos. How-to videos. Their own full-blown shows on YouTube (I'm in the automotive industry and follow several folks that make their entire living this way...with completely original - and quite compelling - content).
Those folks aren't lazy or complacent. And they're the types that do deserve to be monetized. They can't/don't have contracts with networks (who are rapers anyway), but they are still providing something original and worthwhile.
What do you say to them?
FWIW, I agree with much of what you're saying, but disagree that a blanket approach is necessarily the solution.
edit: Also, I would say that each YouTube channel should be treated exactly like a TV channel. If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Then the weak dog doesn't get the bone. But punishing good content providers because bad ones "don't deserve it" isn't the answer.
Content isn't (okay rarely) made for free. Those are jobs just like anywhere else, whether it's HBO, Louis CK, or Rad Brad.
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Most of what you are saying is true, but the execution is what I'm going to pick apart (successfully or not is a matter of opinion).
Most content providers that are looking to monetize their contributions on Youtube have their own sites and sell their own merchandise, whether it be some swag, or dvds or music of what they are doing. I support going to those sites and buying that stuff if you like it. I'll use the analogy I used in my response to shalart. You're going to one of those sidewalk art shows that many cities put on so that artists can sell their work. They don't make you pay to walk down the street and look. You look at the piece, if you like it, you buy it and bring it home. You shouldn't have to pay to look at the stuff they have to sell, nor should they get paid unless their extremely exceptional (for my analogy's sake those pieces wouldn't be in that setting, they'd be in an art museum or private gallery). That's how I see the point of youtube's inception as being. A means to showcase amateur talent in order to give them a chance to make it big. If you like, you buy, if not, you pass. It's arrogant and self-entitled to assume that you deserve money just because you made something for the purpose of selling it. If that was reality, then everyone would own their own business and get paid regardless if their product is something people want.
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Not everyone that produces content also produces merchandise. My auto shows example are good cases in point.
Sometimes the content IS the product.
For me, your argument doesn't hold up because YT is monetized exactly to reward what you're saying. That is, people who provide "good" content, and by that I mean popular, are rewarded monetarily. People that produce unpopular content are not rewarded.
It's not arrogant and self-entitled to want to get paid for your work. And that's what these guys are doing.
Do you think Steve Buscemi or Nathan Fillion are arrogant and self-entitled (okay, maybe they are, but not all actors are) because there are ads subsidizing their shows and careers? That's how it works, man!
And the best part about this? If you click on one of these rotten content providers' channel and they're awful, guess what? You backclick and never visit again. But if you like content, then there's no reason not to look at a spot in order to support that person continuing to make content you like. Especially if they aren't selling swag.
Bottom line: YouTube is no different than TV, just open to more content.
If you listen to commercial radio and watch movie trailers, then you're doing the exact same thing you're saying you despise on YouTube. You might hear a shitty song, or watch a bad movie. That's what life with choices is like. You get good and bad content, and you pay more for good, but some for bad.
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Your auto shows? As in your own contributed content? Well, that would explain why you want to keep the monetization on youtube.
And if I listen to commercial radio or television? I do not for that reason. Movie trailers are not the same, because movie trailers are more similar to that sidewalk art show I was describing than forcing me to pay just to look at the work of art as opposed to trying to sell me the work of art. Sorry if you decided you wanted to do this for your line of work, but I choose not to pay for that, and I don't. I'll keep my ad-block up and continue to refrain from activities where people will get money from inconveniencing me by interrupting paid services.
I don't have cable anymore because I have no desire to have 10 minutes of advertisement on shows I pay for. I stopped listening to radio because I choose not to waste my time listening to 2 songs just to have 10 minutes (exaggeration) of advertisement. I have supported the Youtube artists who post their content for my approval, and if I like it, I'll buy their product as my way of saying, I like you, keep it going. To me, expecting people to watch through the ads is paramount to going to a store, and having to pay money or sit them in front of a television to watch advertisements to enter the store whether or not you find what you are looking for or not. I pay for netflix because I want to watch what I want to watch, uninterrupted on my schedule.
Your right, it isn't arrogant and self-entitled to want to get paid for your work, it is however to expect it, regardless of quality. And you know what, me showing up once to show a video, if I think sucks and makes me want to say the line "I want the last (however long the video is) of my life back" I can't. This is why I rarely go onto youtube to watch videos unless I'm looking for something specific. And here lies the problem. Say I want to look up a video that gives a how to guide on how to get through a level in a game I'm playing. I do a search through the youtube search bar, and find the several videos talking about reviews, some of them say, "So and so plays this game" and come to find out, it is a video about commentary, skipping over the parts I need, I just wasted my time, and the person got paid for delivering the wrong product. To me, it is the same as me getting a movie ticket to see the new Hobbit movie, and instead watching Fellowship of the Ring, and not being allowed to get a refund for not seeing what I came to see. Now, don't get me wrong. There are many Youtube channels that I actually support. Geek and Sundry for one. But every chance I get, I buy their merchandise. For example, the Guild box-set. Or Ill Will Press (Foamy the squirrel). I have a few shirts from their website. Or Oxhorn, which I own the Christmas for Geeks album which has now become a holiday tradition to listen to between my wife and myself.
There are even some cases in which I have seen some sample work done by youtube contributors, who didn't have anything to sell. But they say they want to do a project, and if you like it, then donate. And I have if I liked it. To me, it just feels like the soul of Youtube has been ripped out when people are making their content and all they have to do is convince people to watch their videos. It has taken the indie feel out of the whole experience and feels more like corporate hollywood bull crap, which I personally do not support.
So at the end of the day, if you want to keep supporting them, then by all means do so. Watch irrelevant ads to give them their revenue, I'll keep my ad block up and if I like a movie I see on Netflix, or other commercial free sources, I'll buy the movie or television series on dvd or blu-ray or on i-tunes. And if I go to Youtube, I'll keep my ad block on and find other means of supporting the content creators if I deem them worthy.
Edit: In all fairness though, I do see your point even though I don't fully agree, so here's my compromise: From now on, I will turn adblock off on a video I like, hit the refresh button so they get the ad support. I still won't do that though for content I deem unworthy of it though.
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I must've mentioned the auto shows in another thread here. No, I do not produce content for a living. I did once, but for a major cable news network. But I enjoy watching content that doesn't have physical swag to sell. In fact, I'm the opposite of you. I don't want some crappy t-shirt. I want the expert opinion of someone that knows what they're doing. And I can only get it on YT sometimes.
But you keep saying it's like going to store. It's not. YT isn't Amazon. The content IS the product, no matter now much you keep saying it isn't. And no, it isn't arrogant to expect payment for you work. Not at all. That's what payment negotiations are about. In the case of YT, large providers also have contracts with YT. And they are paid based on their performance, just like any job should be. No different. What you're saying to those providers is, "I'm going to take your product by watching it, and not reward you in any way if you don't have a secondary way to monetize it." That's pretty short-sighted and selfish of you. Now...again, if you were saying, "Hey YouTube, why don't you give us an option to either have pop up ads or the video spots. I find one more intrusive." I get that. But that's a beef you should have with the network, not the content providers. They don't control that. YouTube does. Hulu used to give options for watching one long spot at the beginning of a show, or spots interspersed throughout.
So we'll have to agree to disagree. Until you find value in content production (which I can't see how you can't). You seem to have this idea that YouTube is somehow supposed to be "indie" and that artists and producers shouldn't make money for their work there. That's a pretty tough view.
What do you do for a living, out of curiosity, and how does your business attract customers?
I like your compromise a lot. I think it's very reasonable, FWIW. And, IMO, how it should be. Just like a radio station I listen to. I like it, and I'll happily listen (maybe only half paying attention) to ads, because I know without them, that station (or its content, anyway) would cease to exist.
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Wanted to expand on the auto show as an example. I saw my favorite show YT only here in the States recently do an exclusive on the forthcoming Porsche 918. It was informative, and was important to me for work for several reasons. I couldn't have found this information (and the images) anywhere else in my normal channels. And his expertise was enlightening and useful. And he doesn't offer keychains and t-shirts and coffee mugs to cheapen the deal. He's good at what he does.
I can't find any reason why the host, his crew and his producers shouldn't be paid for what they do.
In fact, that's exactly as it should be.
I think part of the problem is that there is SO much crap to wade through on YT that it's hard to see any justification for paying THOSE folks. But honestly, they don't get paid very much.
The guy in my show, hopefully, does. Because it would suck to have him going back to work as a banker. He would be awful at it, worthless in the job, and not offering up his talents in the fashion that he should be, which is doing what he's doing.
Yet he doesn't have a network TV contract that broadcasts in the U.S. He may have been offered one, or maybe not. But it doesn't make him unworthy of being paid for his work.
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I did tear up a bit. What most fail to see is that most these people pout their souls into doing these videos. Some are unable to work and are making vids. If someone is successful in Youtube they are doing something right. . Just posting video doesn't mean success. put in the hard work and effort and there could be a payoff.
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Seriously. Google just fucked up so many people's lives. For all we know they started to cry when they saw this because it's pretty much Google laying people off who are making them shit tons of money. If no one was saying anything WHY DID GOOGLE DO ANYTHING!?!? The only developer to have done ANYTHING were the guys who made Gary's Incident(One of the most half assed games ever) and that was only because Total Biscuit gave a real review of the game. I seriously question what kind of drugs Google has been slipping to its employees because this is just idk. I seriously have no words for this kind of bullshit I'm seeing right now. Google plus was a terrible idea. I haven't seen a single person enjoying it. Okay what ever we'll deal with that as long as we still get to see our favorite youtubers. Now they pretty much killed off youtubers. Last time I checked these people have over 1 million subs. Pewdiepie is the top subscribed youtube channel. Google just shafted him FOR NO REASON. It's just mind blowing who fucking retarded these guys at Google are.
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was Pewdiepie effected? if so that is 100% fucked. I'll be honest I don't like any of his videos. . but he does deserve props. He is the biggest essence in YouTube and was just featured in Youtube's what does 2013 say video. . . all and all messed up.
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I looked it up Pewdiepie was hit too. . .This week, sometime there is going to be blood. Even Ubisoft is asking of someone's head on a spike. They are asking for the name of the person who said it was Ok to call out a contact match on their stuff without doing some form of screen to filter out those with contracts. . . not so much because the program did its job but rather more-so that somewhere all this money is building up and it is going to be a mess to deal with the cleanup.
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With all the arguments I've seen here, I have decided I will meet your view point half-way. When I go to a channel that I like, I will most definitely turn my adblock off and refresh the page so they get the ad support. Because you are right, some people do it for the purpose of creating great work and the money is a thank you to their effort. Others you can tell are only doing it for the money, and though their content is okay, I may not want to support them, and I'll use the ad block as a filtering device, as opposed to a blanket approach.
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The real problem with all this youtube stuff are the companies that do not own the rights for the games. Some of my The Walking Dead videos have been blocked because they triggered an id match with a let's play by a korean company called CJ E&M.
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Its not a crime, a crime requires a law to be broken. Youtube/Google is enforcing the current laws, so if you have a problem, then maybe you need to talk to the US government and get copyright sorted out.
This isnt new at all. Nintendo was the first to pursue legal action against streamers and reviewers for using their game content in vids, this is just the next stage of that which I predicted would happen, and was quickly flamed as being a fear mongering asshole.
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it is kind of a crime to to the fact that false claims are being cited to deny other's revenue. This is like the Nintendo thing . . but also very different. With Nintendo Ninteno had stated no one makes money off of our stuff. . . whereas the content matches here, well most were OKed by the devs and in some places contracts were signed. from my understanding it is Not allowed in The US for a third party to deny funds where a legal contract has been signed. . infact it is worse and a third party is the instigator of a breech of contract. I may have read that wrong. None the Less I do believe a crime is being committed. . albet it somewhat accidentally. . it still is unlawful.
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i think they can still decide they don't want what could be copyrighted content(they aren't going to spend the $ to check) on their site....it is google's site afterall and they weren't consulted in this contract you hypothetically mention, perhaps they should have been since it apparently was made with the assumed use of their services in mind.
(it isn't a third party breech of contract if a credit card cancels your account and you don't deliver on some contracted payment, its up to you to find some other way to pay. nor is it one if you agreed to put a show on a channel you didn't control or ask and they later refused. if for example pewdiepie signed something agreeing to advertise a game on youtube with one of his videos or based on his ability to collect ad money from that he ought to have made sure with youtube he could deliver) youtube seems public and open to free use but isn't technically.
free speech isn't a thing on private websites, you can say what you want but it doesn't need to be there. and it isn't a public space this guy is just free to post his clips in. I'd assume there is something to that effect in their terms of use or whatever you click past when making an account. (if their rule is you don't get to use anything copyrighted(fair use debates or no) then thats their right to take you down for review. nobody said they couldn't post it somewhere else and try their luck on veemo. besides doesn't youtube have something about "we reserve the right to change this terms of use without contacting you its your problem to keep up with it" or whatever)
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Google is violating the Free Use clause of United States copyright law.
Furthermore, they are making claims on behalf of publishers who say that they were not informed that Google would be doing this. The publishers who have made announcements regarding this mass-flagging campaign are working with content providers who have been falsely flagged in their name.
Misrepresenting yourself as someone else in a legal act is an illegal act.
The law is not on their side.
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Google is violating the Free Use clause of United States copyright law....no they're not. maybe you're allowed to use it, nothing says you're allowed to use it on youtube
if youtube thinks some vids are skating near a fair use line and don't want to get caught up in that risk they take it down(and have an automated filter to do so) you can still post that video somewhere else
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many things do, like this court case.
though it is still in litigation
but to point out only in the case of figuring out if Lenz suffered damages. .
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if its in litigation its meaningless and hasn't said anything. I can file a suit that you killed my cat and owe me $30 or negligently let me fall off a ladder, come back when its decided. they let her sue they didn't yet say she was right or universal was wrong, only rejected the attempts to block it outright
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not about the existence off fair use, but about random 3rd parties getting yelled at for covering their ass
and possibly about how far fair use extends(it definitely covers clips used in a review video, but does it cover a full game lp uncut unedited with some narration peppered through? what about a clipshow compiled from 3 minutes on google image while a full album plays in the background named and tagged with artist name song name and album with no mention of the clips as a blatant loophole to earn views on somebody else's propertywe've all seen this sort of video? where is that line? its rather vague and gets more tricky when making money is involved. fuzzy edged lines you can cross fairly easily or at least get very very close to when not for profit get more important and hard edged when you get $)
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are you inferring that the videos' in question are copyright infringing copyright? b/c if you are that isn't the case here. The issue is that Youtube has allowed for their site to falsely hit fair use videos. It is the site called YouTube enforcing Youtube policy. . . a flawed one at that.
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Not to play as the devil's advocate, since all you idiots are so quick to get your pitchforks to hunt down those who say or do something you disagree with, but may we ask WHY Youtube did this in the first place? I do not agree with the method they choose to deal with this issue, but they did have a problem for the longest time with copyright.
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Hey I'm not one of those guys. . . You ask a legit question. Yes I was fired up when I posted this and yes I did rage on people insulting me/ saying the people in Youtube deserve this: Of which no one can say they do. Anything apart from those two things (hell I've even started to side with some adblock people, Though I still loath adblock).
As per your question Youtube fucked up really. Like as in made a mistake. They didn't mean for it to happen, yet they are not saying they were wrong, nor are they stepping in to deal with the mess. With the system that is in place there is a way to revert it. But from the events from Monday, even with full support form the Dev to upload a video. Heck even if you were a Dev who uploaded a video of your own game (Spooder). It could take up to a year to fix what happened on Monday.
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Regardless, youtube wouldn't have to even consider such a system if they didn't have to address constant copyright infringement issues. They may have fucked up in addressing the issue, they still were not at fault for causing the issue. You could either point fingers at the uploaders that abused their power (which caused everyone to be punished for, unfortunately) or you can blame the copyright holders for being a bunch of greedy bitches. Regardless, Youtube for years was more than happy to allow all videos on their site but suddenly that changes. Why? Youtube cannot manually watch every single video that is uploaded since that would cause a major delay in uploading material, so this is the alternative. It is a work in progress and I am positive they did not want the results that happen and I am sure they will address it because it is in everyone's best interest. Simply saying Youtube is the bad guy here in dealing with a problem that they never started is ridiculous. Instead of everyone hating youtube like the site is out to get them, perhaps everyone should give constructive criticism in how it doesn't work, how it could work, and maybe even a productive alternative solution to the issue. It is easy to shout at someone for fucking up, but nobody here seems to have the balls to suggest better ideas to fix what they are apparently so entitled to have, a youtube channel.
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You are quite right. The problem does lay with the messed up copyright holders trying to place a system into something that doesn't quite work. No one really thinks that YouTube wanted their system to go the way that it did. That's the issue at hand.
Most games have songs and art that is based off of something. Take 7 days to die. They bought some art for their game from a company claiming to hold the rights to it. They did legally acquire the entity, from what they thought was legit. . . but when it came down to the wire it turned out someone else had a claim and went after the Fun Pimps for stealing their property. After a few lawyers they got out of trouble but it was a hint of what was to happen here.
This is where YouTube comes into fault, they didn't look into the system that they allowed to implement. Because it is their site all onus comes to them. This is why they allowed to implement the system: They are liable for the content that is on their site, though only to a certain degree. This is why All of these reports are done via YouTube. The main issue that they overlooked was Videogames. Because it isn't a direct copy medium. . . Meaning that unlike all other forms of entertainment there needs to be a third party for the medium to function: AKA the player.
See video-games are the one digital medium that functions fully on the user for it to succeed. Unlike movies or music where anything is a cut copy paste type of idea, which is what the system was made for. One of the videos discuss this. . . but this is also where most Dev's need YouTube. For the exposure.
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PDP hasn't ruined gaming. Know how I know? I haven't been watching his videos. PDP has no effect on gaming from where I can see.
PDP can only effect you if you care what happens regarding PDP.
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I think it's a perfect decision. Gameplays created a trend in which a lot of fucking idiots thought they could earn shitloads of money just by playing games and saying stupid random crap while they play.
Sorry but no, I just hope that this hits hard to all the stupid kids who thought they would make a living out of it. Still, best luck to Angry Joe, Pew Die Pie, Total Biscuit and to the other who really work hard. For the rest, fuck them hard, it's time to clean Youtube.
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So according to you it's super duper awesome to have 10000 videos of kids playing CoD or Minecraft while throwing random stupid comments just because the first guys who did that had success?
Wanna succeed? Then try to innovate, stop replicating stuff and think you're so awesome and original. Angry Joe, PewDiePie, Angry Videogame Nerd and many others are famous because they were the first ones to do it and they had original content. Many others who appeared later and had success it was because they came up with original and fun material despite being again more and more gameplays.
The rest are lifeless kids who are probably below 18 and think they are so cool.
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I never said that. I wanted to try to understand where you are coming from. Apparently jealousy.
Angry Joe, PewDiePie, Angry Videogame Nerd all did lets plays and where part of the 10000's of lifeless kids that you are attacking. . . they just all got lucky. It is an ignorant place to think that just because someone follows in the footsteps of their predecessors makes them invalid. I like to reference Hunter S. Thompson who would re-write great works of literature until he found his voice.
That being said not all of these people will find their own way, this is true and fall into the rails of homogeneity, but to smite them before they have any chance? That's like all kinds of wrong.
innovation doesn't happen overnight.
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Eh, GregStrat is right about the original content though, AVGN reviews older games most people have either forgotten and never played, PewDiePie.. okay, PDP i'd throw in that 10000. Angry Joe I haven't seen in a while, but he's probably original like AVGN or game theorist, they have something unique that nobody does. Just generic lets plays does not warrant quality, but quantity.
Also, note to GregStrat: PewDiePie does not work hard, I find it hard to believe you didn't laugh at what you typed yourself. He overreacts when playing, and just talks as he plays, nothing unique.
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Unless the search is worded for a certain way and they are looking for a certain video to show them how to get past a certain level on a certain game, and the video isn't titled correctly and doesn't show them the content they wanted to see and instead was this obnoxious 8 year old boy who just had stupid non-helpful comments about something with a lot of ear piercing screaming. That happened to me once when I wanted to figure out how to build something with redstone in minecraft, and got a video like that because I worded it wrong due to my ignorance on the subject (which led me to seek out the video in the first place).
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Just said PewDiePie cause it's one of the few uploaders I enjoy watching and one of the first names I came up with. He isn't necessarily one of the best uploaders or a guy who works hard.
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Put yourself in this situation. You're a hard working dev who just managed to finish and release a game. Then a bunch of random unknown people make money OUT OF YOUR WORK just by uploading gameplay videos because that's how Youtube works.
Sorry but a big NOPE.
Btw there's no need to attack me and bring such bullshit as jealousy, I make money the old way, by having a damn REAL job. Yes, with caps.
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eer talk to a dev. . . They want people to put out videos of their games. . . Sorry BIG NOPE have of twitter all day had been Big and small Devs saying "WE WANT YOU TO DO LETS PLAYS"
Nice try but NOPE! You are wrong. Any public showing generates revenue. . . Heck even Day one got a huge boost in sales from the TB situation
Gaslamp Games @GaslampGames 11 Dec
(BTW, if you're doing something cool like a Dredmor LP, why not let us know? We'd love to hear about it.)
Runic Games @RunicGames 11 Dec
We love Let's Play videos of Torchlight and #Torchlight2. Go for it! http://www.torchlight2game.com/legal/fan-art-video-policy …
it goes on and on. . . . over 100 dev's tweeted that they want lets plays in the past two days. So your scenario, tough cleverly thought out holds no ground. . . unless you are speaking of Nintendo.
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Indie devs only I see, not any AAA maker company.
Still, it seems to me that you and others didn't like my comment because you're butthurt wannabe youtubers who got your accounts lifted, am I right?
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I think I explained it pretty well, but if it's not clear enough, here I go again. It's not the gameplays or uploaders I don't like, it's the fucking wannabe kids I hate, doing only stupid Minecraft and Call of Duty commented gameplays. They are the ones that make me sick.
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Maybe i'm wrong but i don't think there is a ton of people making money by copying famous "Let's Players". Once again i might be completely off (i don't know much about the LP scene) but i really think you're talking about a minority. And sure it's not really elaborated content but i mean some people enjoy it, so why not?
Anyway the all ID system doesn't make any kind of disctinction and reviewer like Angry Joe are hurt...
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Once again, it's not the people making money with gameplays, i'm perfectly fine with that. I'm the first one to be happy with people earning money for doing what they enjoy, it's the wannabes who upload crap I can't stand anymore, and sadly youtube is full of those kids.
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Those wannabes won't get anywhere, so what's the problem with them existing? You aren't subbed to them, are you? They won't show up unless you look for them if you're not subbed.
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You gotta be kidding me right?? They spam every forum with their crappy channels
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Let's put all the puppies in the freezer right now, so the really aggressive ones don't bite someone.
Just ban advertisers on your channel. If they repeat it with new account, ban them as well. They lose interest, and you can ban them while sipping some tea.
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People are watching other people play their game.
In the world they're trying to create, nobody is watching people play their game.
I guess if they -want- to become less relevant FASTER, they can keep doing what they're doing.
The days when publishers dictated how consumers were permitted to consume content are over. The consumer is in charge today, even if laws are put in place to infringe upon our rights.
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Just putting it out there:List of "Let's Play" friendly developers
I'm also astonished by the amount of people thinking that doing Youtube videos can't be a job, it's sad to be senile so young.
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We're talking about an interactive medium, playing a game and watching someone else doing it is not the same thing at all. If people are willing to watch ads to support those who do it and developers are happy of the attention (most indies even desperately need it), why shouldn't it be a job?
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its got a bit of the "my half sister made thousands of dollars in a few hours using her laptop, you can too click here to learn how"(or suburban housewife 1 easy trick thing however the ad goes)thing to it. its not "shouldn't be a thing like murder" its "shouldn't be a thing like dragons" It just feels like farming gold on wow or getting paid to manage people's farmville or whatever to people.
it works for now but eventually somebody changes the rules so you can't idle for tf2 drops sort of deal.
and for the play vs watch ect. that depends on the sort of game. something where the playing is just a small part between story(more a choose your adventure book than a game...like to the moon or walking dead) could potentially claim to loose by having their plot on youtube...and when I've seen it come up before(the nintendo thread) that "interactive medium" argument that gets used to say each lp is unique is a bit silly since nomatter what they do its something the makers programed the game to allow(like "making a story" using whether you kill pennytower in fallout3 but spare some other guy)
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Why shouldn't producing audio/video content to entertain people be considered a job? Let's Players could be likened to voice actors that also have to do video editing and so on. Also they are complaining because there's no reason for it to stop working now, YouTube just needs to improve their system to stop having so many false positives.
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I use adblock to guard my computer against viruses. I had got a horrible virus from an ad that infected my entire computer. It was expensive to fix. And in the case of my friend, he just turns off adblock whenever he watches his favorite Youtubers so that they CAN get revenue.
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I've never seen a virus that Avast or some other freeware antivirus couldn't clean up.. Also, youtube doesn't allow virus ads. Also, the terms are Malware, spyware, trojans, etc.. Nobody makes viruses anymore, since viruses don't have profit involved.
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oh, you can get rid of it easily and youtube doesn't allow them anyway so don't be a dick and turn off adblock...right, youtube also doesn't allow movies porn episodes of tv shows or music uploaded and that still happens(and gets quickly deleted mostly, especially porn but I have seen clips turn up there for about 5 minutes)
i do agree that odds are a good point though, and youtube does screen ads to (99.8% successfully try and)prevent viruses but the ease of virus removal doesn't factor into it so your first point is invalid, and point #3 is pointless nitpicking of terms we know what he meant
edit- ignore the "be a dick" part, I somehow mistook your avatar for the op's
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I use AdBlock and yes YouTube is blacklisted. And for good reason. The adverts are fucking annoying.
For the one youtuber who's videos I watch on a regular basis and I care about, I either watch on mobile where I don't block adverts or I use Firefox without AdBlock installed.
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Comparing gameplay commentary to rap music sampling? Genius. I hadn't thought of that angle.
Your Silicon Valley reaction, where you mention uploaders running their own sites, I agree with. They can still upload content updates to their Youtube channels, but those videos would only summarize and direct you to the full video on another site. I would disagree with you about the lucky streak idea, because if you have a career as a musician, you're essentially selling yourself like gameplay commenters are. They both take things that already exist culturally, put their own spin on it, and people who like what they've done pay them.
As far as your schadenfreude reaction, it would seem that based on view counts, there exists a large number of people who want unwatchable garbage for 12-year-olds. We don't get to block content we disagree with just because we disagree with it. I would put forth the idea that if we don't look out for the crap we don't like, we don't deserve to have access to the crap we do like.
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Schadenfreude describes the concept of feeling pleasure when someone else experiences displeasure.
I'm not really sure if there's a correct single word that defines what your last paragraph is about.
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This is furthermore a douche move by YouTube because they don't actually make video unavailable to watch so they still continue to get profit from the video they flagged as copyright infringement but they cut income to the content providers themselves. And I thought YouTube couldn't get any lower.
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Here is how you can help: don't go to it until they resolve this issue. . . or let's figure something out.
Some of you may or may not know that YouTube has flagged and started screwing over most YouTube Gamer's videos.
Many people who have been putting up any type of gameplay videos have been flagged and are currently not making the money off off the videos that they have worked tirelessly on.
Now I know some of you people out there use adblock to make sure that these people you love to watch make no money what so ever so I know you don't give a shit what youtube does. . . but this is a crime. Many people Like Angry Joe, Chilled Chaos, and even Pew Tee Pie or what ever his name is. . . have been hit hard.
This is a very harsh day on the internet (well Monday was the day that it happened but today the **** hit the fan) YouTube has made people lose their hard work due to their greed and some people need to take a stance. This is mine informing you people that YouTube has just actively screwed over a few million people out of their income and the word needs to get out.
Please don't flame each other but please let us try and band together to figure out how to actively help those who put out videos that help us find out if a game is fun or not. . .
Info what is going on:
the first panel
YouTube vs Gamers!?!
From Nomed: a kotaku article
angry joe's rant harsh language and a bit loud.
TB's thoughts
boogie2988's wonderful heartfelt rant
machinima
EDIT: I was too harsh on people Using Adblock I don't like people using it but I took out what was seen as an insult at everyone (though it was directing to people who use adblock who think that Youtuber's don't deserve money from ad revenue.)
Edit edit: I didn't mean to insult everyone was just in rage mode when I found out how many people are in trouble. Though honestly if you do use adblock and watch a YouTuber you should feel a little bit bad. . you are enjoying their work and not contributing to their work that you are enjoying. . .heck if you wait the 30s and press skip ad they get some money from that.
Personal note: I man sorry for being toxic to some of you. I have been a bit fired up and did get condescending. Something that I do need to work on. Though I would love it if people would try to see that people's lives have been effected with this and I do stand up for people who love games and am trying not to be too aggressive towards people who hold little respect for those trying to make an honest wage. After talking with some wonderful members here Yes that includes Jade. . . I do see that I have 100% been very toxic to some of you, thus distracting from my informing you of an issue. I will try to be less so from here on out : 12:26 PST
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