Well I won crazy machines from someone who gave a lot away. That user is actually one of the better gifters on here. I played it and enjoyed it. So thanks.
I'd like to say thank you to those people who gave so many away. Chances of winning fun titles like this which are "on sale" in the future are less likely probably. So thanks to the people who bought it and gave it away.
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+1
now all giveaways from games which are on sale will be decimated because you dont know whether it will be counted as bundle afterwards.
Like I mentioned earlier the darkness 2 + spec ops bundle from gamefly for 4$ for example
4x Crazy Machine = $4 cost and you earned 40$ CV
Darkness 2 + Spec ops was also 4$ and you also got 40$ CV from it.
This is exactly the same situation as Crazy Machine and it isnt in bundle list.
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Since you seem to like to think your argument is completely valid. I'll have to say something even though DonVino has explicitly said quite enough.
vs
Now let's see... Spec Ops has been given at least 40-60 times these past few months. Now let's see Crazy Machines, it has been given 400-700 times this month. Now why is this? To put it bluntly Crazy Machines isn't exactly an AAA game, compared to games like Darksiders and Spec Ops. I assure you if Bastion was on sale for $1 (it probably has been?) you wouldn't see many giveaways for that. Why? Because that game is actually "good".
Does this mean Crazy Machines is bad? No not at all, but then you'll have to start thinking about the consumers. If the giver is "so called: giving away Crazy Machines because they think it's a good game to share" then why should they care at all about the contributor value? You gave it away because you want people to be happy. Then why are you so upset now?
Well here's another argument "People are still joining the giveaways". Solid argument, but here's another thought to look at it. People will join giveaways just because the game is free, they may give it away on another site or they'll sell it, or redeem it and never even play it. People join simply because the game is free.
The main difference between Darkness 2 + Spec Ops, Bastion, or games similar to them, is that the games are:
More Popular
Actually AAA games
Isn't exactly "invisible" on steam
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To be fair, spec ops was like $2.50 with the $5 coupon off amazon in january. Tis how I got my second copy to give away (didn't even know CV then, just thought that it was a crazy deal and the game was good).
Bastion wasn't given much due to bundle status, but there were still a fair amount of GAs, mostly in private/group sections.
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Bastion was given about 100-200 times the past few months. Is it exploitable? Of course not, even if you buy it at $1 the game itself is only $10. And even if you bought Spec Ops for $2.5 during the Amazon Deal in January, why don't we see a larger influx if it, especially since Spec Ops has been on sale quite frequently? That's simply because Crazy Machines is not an AAA game. $2.50 is nothing when you can essentially buy Crazy Machines for better profit.
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I feel like saying something here, as some users feel like the support staff is out there to "get" users that make giveaways out of bundle games. Keep in mind that this is my personal opinion and does not reflect the opinions of the rest of the staff or the site administrator.
First of all, let me remind you that the bundle list was implemented at a time when it was possible to get multiple games for one cent. When the PWYW bundles first appeared, a lot of keys started pouring on SteamGifts. These were not only boosting values for almost nothing, but they were also causing a large influx in P. Thus, they were being deleted on sight, and the users were getting suspensions.
Then this happened. Since the bundle giveaways were going out of control, a way to allow them on SteamGifts while more or less trying to maintain a sense of equality between contribution value and real spent money.
Of course, this was done at a time when there weren't many PWYW bundles, or, at least, when they didn't go nuts with weeklies and stores and whatnot. Also keep in mind that this was done with respect to the community's response during that time.
Second, to the question "What makes a game a bundle game?". The main response to this was "To be in a PWYW bundle" at that time. However, again, this was before devs started to give out their games for many different PWYW bundles, and the number of games in the bundle list were relatively low. Now, with the amount of promotions, especially in the PWYW style, this list is getting needlessly large, and the distinction between being bundled and being on sale is starting to disappear.
So, "what makes a game a bundle game"? Right now, the main PWYW bundles, and those that are "abused", meaning that they've been given in large amounts so much that they're giving an unfair advantage to the users that gave them, with regards to the contributor giveaways. What marks a game as "abused" then? Mainly, the number of users that benefit from them in an unfair way, and complaints from the community. The support staff tries (at least) to maintain a sense of fairness between users and their contribution values. When users start to question the fairness of the contribution value a game gives, we take their opinions into account and act accordingly.
Does that mean what is done is fair? Not necessarily, but the amount of complaints we get when an "abused" game is added to the bundle list is lower compared to the amount of complaints we get when that game is NOT in the bundle list. Like most communities, changes on this site reflect what the majority of the users want. Keep in mind though, this does not mean that other opinions are discarded.
Third. The community spoke up times and times again with respect to the "bundle issue". We know almost all of the opinions the community has regarding this. So why we haven't done anything to solve it?
It's mostly because the tools we have access to don't allow us much freedom regarding "solving" this "issue". Our access to the site is limited to what any other user can do, except for a few tools like deleting giveaways or suspending users. Many of the suggestions given to us in support tickets cannot be accomplished by the support staff, only because we don't have the ability to do them.
Is the bundle list a good solution? No, it's not. It's an archaic system that once solved the issue at hand, but it's failing to be efficient at this point. Did the support staff discuss about a possible solution? Countless times. I don't know how many times this was discussed among the support staff during the past 6 months.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to say what will or may happen in the future regarding the bundle list. But, I believe I can say that it won't be here forever.
I'd like to remind you that the site is maintained (code-wise) by only one person, and that the support staff is only limited to the powers that I've mentioned before. I ask you to please be patient regarding this issue, and to know that we're not disregarding this issue.
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And this is why I don't reply to forum threads.
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"Go ahead, throw your comment away!"
(I could probably keep this up for awhile.)
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I don't know whether to be happy that you read it, or to be sad that you can't remember any of it.
Sounds like me studying for my finals.
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I think most of us who use this site weekly or daily agree that this decision is ok. We all have lived with bundled games and understand the "value" the admins have put on them here. I think why most people are upset (the ones posting here who are upset) is more because of the decision to retro actively change something weeks or months later. Both the Humble Weekly sales and in this case Crazy Machines and Shadow Ops were changed after the fact and I think this is more the policy people take issue with. Again where does it stop? Plenty of other games on sales have been as cheap to acquire as crazy machines. Are we going after those too? If not why? Why is it so different? Some people now feel that nothing is safe. If the policy is such that you can go back in time and change the rules you are bound to have people nervous and in all likelihood less likely to continue to contribute.
I struggled with these concepts with bundled games not being "worth" anything when I first joined SG. I didnt like the elitist posts that came out form this community about it. The same people saying you should only give to make someone else happy are throwing stones at the people giving away something with "no value". My first win here was a bundle and it made me very happy. I have given away bundle keys or other sale priced items that made peoples days. It really sucks that we perceive this gifts that people enjoy as having no value. We all understand why a bundle list exists and we all live by those rules. To change it weeks or months later is just wrong.
I won a crazy machines game and I'm thankful that person gave it to me. I feel bad that the community celebrates that gift which he spent money on, now has no value and people post that he got what he deserved. That's just not the way i see it.
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" If the person would start to give non bundle games "
Those were non bundle games at one point in time!... For months..... They were non bundle when they were purchased and non bundle when they were given. That's the entire point! I cant predict what will be retroactively changed 2 months from now just as I couldn't have done that 2 months ago.
It has no value as of today if that person logs in. They now received no "credit" for those games that based on a list for months or weeks and shown they do get credit for. Thats not even counting the bonus is 20% that person was getting from bundled games as well. So this change really takes away 120% of someones CV for these games.
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Oh come on this argument again? Seriously,if you get a "WOW SUPER MUCH CV FOR NO INVESTMENT" your next thought should be "Might end on the bundle list". Everything else is denying reality. Also is totally not relevant for "Don't try to abuse the system and nothing bad will happen"
Also,do some math course again. You can't lose more than 100% of your CV. That would be putting it down to $0.
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If I gave away 100$ worth of crazy machines on my profile it would net me 120$ since I have bundle games waiting to be realized.
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but "120% CV of these games" is not stuff they get from other games. The 20% from the bundle rule are still accomplished by other games,not these games. Either you say the 20% bundle rule CV belongs to those games,then you still just lost 100% (aka $120 = 100%),since those 20% came with the giveaways or you dont add it ($100 = 100%).
You can't lose more than you gave on SG. Worst is a 100% reduction (deletion of a giveaway).
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In the most restrictive interpretation of the statement, sure. However I believe that the assumption that most people have "surplus" bundle value will hold to the majority of contributors on this site, and thus is valid to use when calculating these values. The value isn't lost forever, but in order to "unlock" it again you have to contribute another 6 times the cost of the games removed
As an example I went from $412 to $340 after ~$60 of non-bundle games were redefined as bundle games. Notice how the reduction in CV is, again, equal to 120% of the value of the game. No, you can't have a reduction of more than 100%. But the distinction between the statements of "I lost 120% of my CV" and "My CV was reduced by 120% of the value of the games" is very small. Arguing it makes it look like you have no valid counterpoint to the argument and thus have to resort to petty nitpickery
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then again the $12 already came with the other $60,so you may have lost 20% more than the worth of the $60 is,but still just the full 100% that came with those giveaways.
Nothing additionaly was taken from SG.
Also,if you accuse me of bad argumentation and nitpickery..did you follow how this started. It all is just a QQ SG stole from me,which is ridiculous and why it is not as the starter of this discussion said,that everything is lost nothing is gained from those giveaways, has already been said.
"i lost 120% of my CV" surely isnt an argument for anything,it was just a statement. You can say I am nitpickery,but then I say "And you guys are polemic"
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No. They were bundle games. They just weren't on the bundle list yet. Nobody gave away tons of these games before they were available for next to nothing. They tried to exploit a loophole that common sense should have told them was going to be closed. It's just another example of the fact that giving away games purely to raise your value is stupid and a terrible investment. I have a hard time pitying stupid people, especially when their problems stem from trying to do something sleazy.
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No one gives away "tons" of anything here till its on sale generally. Total War was on sale for 90% off on steam last year. No one gave away tons of those until that day either. Yet this was a "legit" steam bought game for 1$. Some people gave away 10-20x of those just as they did crazy machines. Im not going to argue that trying to boost CV is a good investment. A quick look at any profile who has a high CV will show they have given a lot more than they will receive on here based on that CV. Maybe thats why I view it differently. I dont view these people as sleazy or exploiting something. They spent money and gave away games with it. To people like me actually. They did that based on a list that is provided. If the list is what you ask users to use when the create the GA then I think the list needs to be correct at the time of the GA. or certainly within reasonable time. Understandably bundles come out all the time or add games to them. We cant ask your staff to constantly update this list within minutes. However days, weeks or especially months puts most of the premise for why the list exists in question.
People viewed the crazy machines or weekly sales form humble as a sale. At least that's how I viewed it. It was one game for 1$. No different from total war. I just would like to know where the line gets drawn for the future. Because its awfully foggy when you go back and change things after the fact.
Changing things going forward I'm 100% with.
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None of this changes the fact that when someone applies a necessary value of $1000 to enter their giveaway, they intend to see it go to someone who has given $1000 worth of good games that people want and will enjoy, who have contributed to the community in that way, not someone who tried to give away $1000 worth of garbage that no one wants or is interested in playing just because it was 60% cheaper so that they could try and get into such giveaways. That makes people unhappy, and that's why we don't allow this kind of thing to happen. Anyone familiar enough with how the system works to try and exploit a loophole before it closes is familiar enough that they should know it's going to be closed eventually, and they have no one to blame but themselves and no reason to complain when it happens.
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It has no value as of today if that person logs in. They now received no "credit" for those games that based on a list for months or weeks and shown they do get credit for. Thats not even counting the bonus is 20% that person was getting from bundled games as well. So this change really takes away 120% of someones CV for these games.
Scientists will add that post to a list of unexplainable mathematical phenomenon.
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If I gave away 100$ of crazy machines on my profile a month ago. I would get 120$ for it correct? Seeing I I have lots of bundle games sitting waiting to earn value. Perhaps if someone only gave CM and nothing else in that case yes it would be only 100% of the value. But if they have given away bundle games, which it seems like most of the users here have then they would lose that 20% as well.
In any event this part of my posts is really the part I wish you wouldnt have commented on. The part I think some of us really care about are the other points I have been making. Bottom line isnt how much 100$ or 1000$ in crazy machines gave to someone in CV. Obviously some people "lost" more than others. My posts have been about the fact that doing it retro active with no warning or even an announcement is a very poor way of doing it. The only people posting here who are upset, are upset about that. Its not the fact that its a bundle game. We all understand how the list of bundle games works. Its that its deemed a bundle game with revisionist history that is the real issue and it doesnt seem like anyone wants to comment on why thats a huge problem.
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My opinion:
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The retroactive thing is crazy to me. If you are going to have rules and a list that people can check before listing a giveaway then you need to stick to it. Adding an * after the fact to a GA that ended days,weeks or months ago is a really poor way of handling this. Its actually the worst way to handle it. This wouldnt fly in any industry or community really regardless of content. This is now the second time its happened in about 30 days (a retro change).
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I just logged in today and checked my profile, now I have ZERO dollars contributor value from CM, WTF SG!
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