a great question to ask republicans is: If you could go back in time and abort joe biden would you?
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Even though i disagree with him, at the end of the day he posted it on his personal twitter, where he should have the freedom to express his views. Those that are leaving negative reviews on games made by hundreds of people just because one person at the company said something they didn't like are just idiots.
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Unfortunately not. It´s his "Hi, I´m president of this & that" account directly linking to his company!
Not much private or personal about it & because of that it becomes valid to state, that he is showing a lack of leadership and responsibilty by, though possibly involuntarely, putting pressure on the people working under him.
Now fortunately those hundreds of employees are only imaginary and TripWire seems nothing more but a 4-6 headed boys-club (sic!).
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While I agree that people have a right to be stupid and to be proud of it too, he should, as a person responsible for a whole company, and people who are making a living out of it; as well as a person who should be aware of the way social media has shaped the political discourse, he should probably have kept his flag waving to himself.
It's his personal twitter but he said "I felt it was important to go on the record as a pro-life game developer." so he implicated his position. He was commenting not as a private citizen but as a game developer.
... who makes extremely violent games to top it all off so being "pro-life" is a bit of an irony in there too.
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What's a bit bizarre is his "taking action to combat racism and police brutality" stance last year. I agree with him here, but it is on the complete other side of the political divide.
Also, not sure if it's a dig at masks - probably not, but the sign in the background may suggest it's exactly where he intended it.
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Well people have a right to be contradictory in their opinions I guess. I have a very close gay friend I can talk to about anything and we will forever butt heads on his "passionate stance" on abortion. He's pretty liberal on everything else but for some reason he feels it's the right thing to legislate a woman's body even though he doesn't have and will never have any stake in the issue, not being a woman and not ever being a father.
Maybe he really bought the political line about life being a heartbeat (something most people who have had a loved one comatose for years could probably debate and let's not even get into the fact that a 6 weeks fetus doesn't have a heart) so he thinks it's "the right thing". Like fighting racism is the right thing.
Or maybe he just felt like he wasn't taking any risk because he believes most of his customers are men and men are pro-life, right?
I just really feel bad for his employees who, whether or not they agree with his stance, will have to suffer the consequences of his stupidity or naiveté.
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Your friend is pretty correct on his Human Rights compass, though.
Only if you count a bunch of cells the size of a grain of rice as a human, which I wouldn't have a specific issue with unless you also have to discard the rights of an actually living full grown human being in order to do that.
Don't be so quick to judge because not only 300 years ago all of us "brown" or "blacks" were also legally "things" that could be discarded, just like fetuses pretty much are now
Those are completely different issues. You're talking about groups of living breathing thinking human beings on the one hand, and a bunch of cells on the other. There is nothing humanitarian in treating women as nothing else than vessels for babies.
People can think what they want and if they don't want to get an abortion, I support them. I have an issue however with people who will never be faced with that decision legislating to make sure women who may have to cannot. And that's my problem with my friend's position. He doesn't have a womb and he will never get anywhere close to one, since he is very gay, and yet he feels it's his right to suppress the right of others who are faced with that decision. As far as human rights go, it's hypocritical and I tell him every time we talk about it.
... doesn't stop us from talking about it though so it's all well and good. That's what freedom of choice looks like.
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Ah yes, the Red Pill of the Pro-Choice v. Pro-Life debate. such an EyEoPeNeR. . .that woman is a disingenuous, racist, bigoted quack and a high-degree cringelord. "Oh, clutch my pearls for me, will ya? Because my heart is literally breaking on this busy, busy Saturday morning in this smol Texan abortion clinic"
Abby Johnson had her 15 minutes of fame, and she's back into obscurity once again. Good riddance. Nutcases like her will get you killed, FYI.
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If you're interested in a pretty good book to read on the subject - if you have the stomach - is Unplanned: The Dramatic True Story of a Former Planned Parenthood Leader's Eye-Opening Journey.
followed by this:
Let me just trust a random internet stranger.
You reactionaries have no self awareness.
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Sociopathy isn't even a legitimate, technical, qualifying term. And who said I don't own it? I'm not even pro-choice, my dude, I'm counter-life, baby! excuse the pun
And that's coming from a collectivist-utilitarian-materialist psychopath. Unlike you, holier-than-thou essentialist-fundamentalist self-deluded druids with your occult anti-science shit, worshipping imaginary beings in the sky. Yeah, you're perfect the way you are. GTFOutta here!
Not your fetus. Not your body. You've no say in the matter. End of discussion. Go lick Bolsonaro's heels.
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Quite ironically, intersectionality doesn't mean much to some ppl - when it should. In most cases, it's the minorities that are threatened and under a heel of a very oppressive society and culture, unless we're talking about class division - where lower classes are literal majority, yet still hold a tiny fraction of socio-economical influence and power. Which is ludicrous, but social struggles are a very slow race and require a lot of patience.
As for your friend, well, that's why we get ppl like Milo Yiannopoulus, Caitlyn Jenner, Blaire White, Dave Rubin, Candace Owens. . .for the sheer lack of self-awareness, empathy, compassion, or just pure stupidity and/ or greed. Intersectionality doesn't cross their minds once. And that's the sad state of affairs.
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That's basically the broader point I try to make when we argue about it.
If the vast majority of people the minority in power calls "minorities" doesn't stand up for each other, things will never improve for anyone, not really. It's not about living in a Disney princess world and loving everyone, it's about survival.
But hey, like you said slow progress, we'll get there. I won't stop arguing with him and trying to change his mind ;)
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The problem with the right-wing lunatics, is that they view Critical theory as some sort of grimoire, a Satanic bible even. A lot ppl can be reasoned with, and ripped out of the clutches of alt-right, QAnon, MRA/ MRM, "skeptic" communities with a moderate time and energy investment. Those that are too far gone, are usually a lost cause. They'll more often than not contradict themselves if it fits their narrative, and they have no shame about it. they just don't care. The scariest thing is, there's a lot of these hopeless cases, tnx to the advent of broadband & social networks. But, the reason must prevail, and the fight to save all those misguided souls can never stop.
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this is just absurd. everyone is talking about freedom and freedom of speech but once you go against the current and have a rather controversial opinion on a subject you are getting discriminated and harrassed, threatened. Freedom is just an illusion i guess. just go with the herd you sheeple and all is good. i made a general statement which you could apply to anything controversial. doesnt mean i support this guy or his opinion.
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How would you suggest we go about addressing this without policing and suppressing what people say though? These sorts of things happen naturally, and predictably, in real life as well, with the only major difference being the speed with which it happens online.
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i wouldnt try to ruin someones life for thinking differently. as long as they remain respectful and civil that person can think whatever they want. but once they entice violence or start insulting then it is dangerous. everyone should be free to share their opinion. and who care what this guy is thinking. is that person such an important personality that i am going to stop all work with the company he is associated with? and take everyone else with him down?
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That's not answering my question though, is it? Individually, most of the people expressing their disgust for the dev are also doing it respectfully and civilly, without enticing violence or insults. The issue is the cumulative effect brought about when individual opinion and action reaches critical mass and becomes public opinion and public action. Despite the seeming unfairness of it all, I can't see a way to fix this without manipulating or suppressing public opinion to defend individual people, which is significantly worse for everyone involved.
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that guy publicly just couldn´t keep it in his pants, it´s not his privates anymore ..
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Bull fucking shit. Why in the world you assume that the freedom to say anything means that there won't be consequences. There are consequences for everything. And again him being pro-life as a dude, is once again fine. Not like he's ever going to be pregnant. I just hope that his wife and or daughter never have to go through a difficult decision, where there life might be on the line.
Freedom of speech means that the government can't censor you, it means that they can't arrest you for whatever you say. That does not and will never mean that people won't give you the side-eye or choose to cancel you. This was not a topic that he should have waded into. He's a dude. This law doesn't fucking affect him I mean it will at some point if his wife or anyone that he loves has a miscarriage and this law becomes common place in every red state. Can you imagine if his wife had a miscarriage through no fault of her own and some dude who fucking hates him for being a fucking moron decides to make it into a court case, and quite frankly if you think it's a good idea to have random people in everyone's business then this is a problem. Like the law in itself is a massive slippery slope argument on top of a slippery slope argument and a massive and I do mean massive violation of privacy, but hey he's pro-life.
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oh boy. triggered someone without even trying. did you even read what i have written. i made a general statement that you get punished for an opinion which doesnt reflect the opinion of the mass. be it right or wrong is another matter. people who were right were treated and are still treated the same obviously. it just depends on what the masses think were you are. it depends on their world view/religion/culture. in one place you will be praised for having that opinion in the other you will be persecuted. the so called consequences are arbritary and without any level of restrain or fairness. how can someones entire life be ruined for thinking something different? it makes no sense to me. is the opionion of that one person so important? in this time of the internet people are so easily triggered and jump way too fast to action and conclusions. people need to chill.
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The reason why people give a shit is because their lives are affected by it. Why in the world would you wait for it to become a problem like it is now. Words have power. If Donald Trump hadn't spent the better part of a year downplaying covid and had sounded the appropriate alarms and done what was required of him we wouldn't have dumb fucks consuming Ivermectin.
I don't normally care if you're pro-choice or anti-abortion. If you don't believe in abortions don't have one. I don't normally give a shit about anti-LGBT shit people say, but the problem is that right now it's a fucking cancer out there. Things that shouldn't be legislated are being legislated and you're just like well, it's okay because people are groups.
This dude thought it was a good idea to say that he was pro-life. He can't get pregnant. He won't ever face the consequences of this law. Saying that you're pro-life is one thing, agreeing with a law that empowers random people to be up in your business harassing you because you can get pregnant, you may get pregnant, and giving them recourse to sue, and claim 10k in money is a fucking disaster of a law. It specifically targets half the population, because once again men can't get pregnant. Like this law is a nightmare and is wildly unconstitutional, and him saying well it protects the life of the unborn once again shows that if push comes to shove he'd support throwing women in jail for miscarrying because this is exactly where this type of laws lead to.
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i don't know what your laws are but here in egypt if the pregnant woman's life is in danger then it's legal to abort the baby but if she aborted just because she doesn't want a baby, her and the doctor that did the operation will both be jailed
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People who keep waving the freedom of speech flag never seem to know what they're talking about.
Freedom of speech protects private citizens from political retribution by the government, not from suffering the consequences in their business if they decided to be proud to be stupid
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who decides what is stupid?
To quote a philosopher, "stupid is what stupid does, ma'am". So in this case, well life decided.
Let me rephrase: his opinions are not what make him stupid (although I disagree with them). What makes him stupid is taking a bullhorn to voice political opinions as a business owner and not expect market consequences.
All opinions are by nature subjective. There has never been and will never be a law protecting you from people's subjective opinions and neither should there be. There is, however, a law protecting you from government retribution for voicing your opinions, and that's what is called Freedom of Speech. It doesn't protect you from your own naiveté.
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Misogyny and cruelty aren't just a "rather controversial opinion", I'm afraid. When you use a public platform to attack the rights of others, your audience has every right, legally and morally, to voice opposition to your stance, and even to advocate for a boycott of your products.
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Not really a surprise considering the lyrics of his band that were featured in KF2 https://web.archive.org/web/20210308220937/https://www.musixmatch.com/lyrics/Dirge-3/Disunion-Reconstructed
People have rights to their opinions, regardless of how stupid those might be. And putting them out in public will have consequences, especially over such a divisive topic.
But he felt it was really important to share those in public. Oh well...
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Yeah, I live in Texas and I can tell you that the majority of these new laws are a complete disaster. Our chucklef*ck of a governor needs to be out of there. His ignorant, pandering-to-the-Trumplicans position is not what most people want...nope, not even here in Texas.
59% of the state was against the new firearms law, including a lot of cops. It just goes to show you how powerful political gerrymandering really is, as well as what that does to representation (essentially creating misrepresentation).
The only good law in that parade of ignorance is one that allows us to buy beer and wine before noon on a Sunday (they bumped it back to 10 am...I mean, why not just do away with the old "blue" law entirely? But, I digress). 😆
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I don't care about "his" views on this matter.. Or whatever this has to do with his company. It was a personal account after all. But unless he found a way to impregnate the male portion of our species, I don't really think he has any sane reason to be "proud" of anything.
I have a strong feeling this is gonna be another 400+ post - Me vs You - shitstorm. Have fun folks 👍
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Nope https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/0D34bGi,
About everything else I do agree with you very much so!
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Awww
I could put you on the list to make you feel better but then I would miss the opportunity of intelligent conversation or civil debate, which is way too rare online.
Tell you what, I can ignore you manually when I don't have anything to reply to your posts, how about that? ;)
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Consider for a minute, the left get angry about this because he is controlling over women and deciding that birthdays happen before birth so you can charge mother's with murder.
The right is angry because they think the left is advocating for legalizing murder because they think that you can murder something before it even develops a brain!
I see no hypocrisy at all. I see two sides that are talking about a hot button issue because one side thinks the other is doing something heinously wrong.
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I'm sure he is being praised. By conservatives. There is no hypocrisy here. He decided to voice his opinion and now other people are voicing their opinions about his opinion.
If you believe sharing an opinion makes you immune from criticism or consequences then you have a lack of understanding on how life works.
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Americans using the term "lefties" without having a communist or socialist or any party of leftist ideology always makes me chuckle... democrats being considered anything other than filthy centrists makes me chuckle as well. The american political spectrum is the Republican party firmly rooted in the right and the all encompassing Democrats who are supposed to represent "everyone else"... throughly a fools errand. A poor man's political system, if you ask me.... but please, do everyone who is a leftist a favor and don't herd us with american democrats. Thanks
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Each one should be able to write/say his opinion, to all things/cases etc..
I have a different one as this guy but each one should be able to handle different opinions without that a shitstorm start.
And in this case without to combine a personal opinion with the work that this person do in a team of many people because they hit the work of many people because they don't like the opinion of one of them. That is in the best case stupid.
He choosed a very bad time to speak up because of the, new, very bad law in texas. Forbid a abortion after a rape as example, is in the best case stupid and ugly.
And each one with two braincells should have known that the masses go into "shitstorm berserk mode" after such a tweet special the US people that have often a "special mindset" (at least the loud online ones^^).
Oh and the (a)social media, like Twitter, are always a horrible thing (that i avoid because to find there normal people is a giantic task).
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Each one should be able to write/say his opinion, to all things/cases etc..
I have a different one as this guy but each one should be able to handle different opinions without that a shitstorm start.
And you still balcklist people for having different (not that different even) opinions.
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There are no "private accounts" in the case of a public persona. And this is a public persona. It's really funny to me that the "keep politics out of gaming" crowd is now tripping over themselves to defend the tweet, which blatantly puts politics in gaming far more than adding black people to Battlefield. At the same time, I think that CEOs should generally not express privately any opinions, without agreement of the rest of the company. Here there's just a bonus of the opinion being utterly moronic
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Almost all social media is. Twitter and Reddit need to be shutdown.
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Normally I don't really discuss heated topics like these, but this one's going to be an exception. So let the blacklisting commence 😛
Normally I would have agreed with anyone saying that it's just his personal opinion so why bother, if it were some other controversial topic like whether he voted for Trump or Biden, or that he thinks there are only 2 or 500 genders. But in this specific case this just becomes a big "hey rape victims, fuck you!", and I reaaaaally do not want to financially support anyone who thinks like that.
I can respect people's beliefs that a 6 week old fetus with a heartbeat is life, and that they do not want to end life. But to then completely ignore the fact that there is no exception for rape in this bill? I mean, there being no exception to incest is already weird AF, but then you could at least argue that the brother and sister chose to fuck so whatever right? However this bill takes away that choice for rape survivors (switching lingo now).
Now, some might argue that rape survivors can (should?) know they're pregnant before those 5.5-6 weeks are over. But I'd rather have the survivors choose that for themselves instead of having that imposed on them by some ancient, shriveled mummies who still live in the Stone Ages.
Of course, they're personal opinions and they, as anyone else, are allowed to have them. But I'm just as much allowed not wanting to have any dealings with them. So I'm happy to know these facts which they themselves throw out into the public making it easier for everyone involved. Just like I wouldn't want to support Whoopi Goldberg for being a rape apologist or Thierry Baudet for being a misogynistic, racist.
End rant.
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According to WSJ there is some wiggle room as it says:
The act provides an exception for medical emergencies that could affect the health of the mother but none for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.
So let's say a 13 year old got pregnant by rape, that I assume would constitute a medical emergency as young girls have been known to die from childbirth.
And even with that caveat, it's no guarantee an appeal would succeed. So there are seven million women of childbearing age in Texas, if even only 0.001% of them got pregnant by rape that's still potentially 70 women who have to carry their rapist's baby without their consent.
And prevelance is besides the point really, just the fact that the bill does not explicitly exclude rape cases is an evil act on itself. We know it wasn't oversight 🙄
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And here's what's worse...the count of those six weeks begins on the first day of the woman's last period.
Now do the math...she's not ovulating until a week or two after her period ended. So by the time she's missed a period (if that even happens) and checks to find that she's pregnant, she will have, in the best case, only a few days to schedule the procedure. Not six weeks. In most cases, women won't know until after those six weeks are up.
This is not an accident. This is by design. This is ignorant, backwards-thinking old men who want to control women.
Also, not a single one of these knuckleheads that want to force women to have rape babies are willing to do a damn thing to take care of them once they're born. The claim of being "pro-life" is absolute falsehood for the majority of people who proudly sling that term around.
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Rape, its adherence to entitlement, self-satisfaction, irrationality, immorality, cruelty, etc aside, is fundamentally an expression of the instinctive evolutionary urge to breed [at any cost]. Meaning that allowing their offspring to live fundamentally means that they "won".
By prohibiting the abortion, you're doing three things: You're saying that women have no rights to their bodies and are in essence simply ovens to be used by whomever want to use them. You're reinforcing the fact that the woman "lost", on multiple levels. And you're rewarding the rapist by allowing his action to succeed in (what is at least biologically) its primary goal.
Putting aside the debate on when it is or is not a life, for the sake of this argument, let's treat the fetuses as fully developed lives. Do the offspring of rapists or other abusive, flawed, or unstable entities necessarily share their traits, or even the relevant genes? No. So should that life be preserved? Perhaps. Is it the rape victim's responsibility or obligation*? On both counts, a phenomenally emphatic "no".
* Rather, if we hold to the logic that parents must hold responsibility for their genetic offspring as they are the result of their own actions [ie, the sentiment that it isn't the child's responsibility that they were born], then we must also accept the converse that parents do not hold responsibility when those children were created without their awareness or consensual participation. After all, we're basically comparing monster truck derby (consensual, fun), a car accident without a clear instigator, and deliberate vehicular assault. There's a clear difference in how we view such things- be it in the context of cars or otherwise- so it'd be rather bizarre if in this instance we held the victim resonsible for <the outcome> when someone else intentionally caused the event against the victim's protest. Though that inclines me towards a tangent on how absurdly corrupt and nonfunctional car insurance is in the US, and how it's appalling that the government mandates it despite not applying oversight or setting responsibilities for it..
Thus, any argument for "pro-life" would have to also provide the means for reasonable excision of the fetus from the womb, transplanting it into a different [and more willing] "container". Once the fetus is consentually removed, you can then lay claim to it and place any considerations on it you wish- kill it, raise it, bake it into a pie; At that point it can properly be addressed under whatever expectations the nation's ethics and laws set upon it [while no longer needing to also address the moral, ethical, and legal rights of the rape victim].
But presently? Presently we're spitting on justice by supporting criminals, we're victimizing victims further, and- most absurd and galling and just flat out nonsensical of all- we're taking away fundamental human rights, the right of an individual over their own body, and we're doing so in a manner that is in itself fundamentally identical to rape; That is, we're forcing our will on someone's body, and doing so in a detrimental manner, while telling them they have no right to control their own body, and threatening them if they resist. There is absolutely no rational way to consider the matter other than an act of rape.
Frankly, when an entire state conspires to engage in and support various forms of rape, then that is exactly when the federal government should step in. Unfortunately, we've a Republican (and moreso, Trump) sponsored Supreme Court, and they're far more likely to look to sentiment [eg, tradition] than make a rational, logic-driven review of the nation's laws and its proclaimed [albeit woefully not reliably practiced] ethical standards.
So while your comparison of bigotry against extreme pro-life laws ("he thinks there are only 2 or 500 genders. But in this specific case this just becomes a big "hey rape victims, fuck you!") may not at first offer clear support for your associated sentiment that the extreme pro-life laws are a decidedly worse offering, once we review what those pro-life laws are actually framed around we can easily determine that it is indeed a far worse thing.
After all, we're talking an even more systemic denial of rights, of focused abuse, and of corruption and, moreso, we're making a distinction between something that is done <in a general presentation> to something <done directly to someone>. And regardless of if we're talking social engagements, crimes, or health afflictions, the trauma and/or legal consideration is considered to be far more significant for an afflicted action, with further consideration given for intent. Thus, much like distinctions between involuntary, constructive, and negligent manslaughter, along with degree of murder, we have to acknowledge that bigotry on its own (in its most generalized, unelevated form) is on the very bottom tier of that list and, further, is no longer supported [and certainly not in such a blatant legal manner] on a state level.
So from any perspective, this is an egregeous violation of rights and of legal standards that passed through solely out of corruption and ill intent. After all, even if the voting base may not have the education or the time to parse the logic of the matter, it's very much the job of the supreme court to. But, of course, there's a lot of reason to be critical about Trump's picks to the Supreme Court, especially in the current context. Putting Gorsuch and Barrett aside, let's not forget that Kavanaugh is, himself, accused by multiple women of being a rapist and molester. Does make the whole ugly thing just that much more awkward.
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6 weeks is like nothing.
when i found out im pregnant and went directly to the doctor, i was already at 7th week.
the thing is, pregnancies are starting to count with the last menstruation. not when the ovulation and the conceiving afterwards happens.
woman have different cycle duration. for a woman with a short cycle 6 weeks might be possible. but for woman with a long cycle it might be too late. some woman have an irregular cycle as well.
i for example have a 5 week cycle..not getting my menstruation after the 5th week i could only guess if its really a pregnancy or maybe sme irregularity once in a while. and that would be only if i counted at all. not all women keep track of it.
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I think this is the main issue - 6 weeks. (That and no exceptions for rape or incest). The UK law for example is 24 weeks, which seems reasonable to me.
The trouble is of course - both sides have valid arguments - and to determine an absolute wrong or right way to handle pro-life/pro-choice is near impossible - there are only opinions and usual, it goes along tribal lines (left vs right).
I do not have any problems with the president of Tripwire being pro-life - even though I totally disagree with the him and especially the terms under which he has thrown his support. But it does seem reckless to further push the political divide. Like it or not, he does represent the company by the mere fact of who he is, along with his twitter profile declaring he is president of Tripwire and for using the line "As an entertainer..".
I accept that for many people the thought of abortion is just wrong and it's easy to see how they'd get that opinion. Sadly though, many will support Gibson simply because it defends the tribe - it is left vs right all over again on a deeply divisive and a difficult to issue to resolve.
I do find it hard to believe that many would deny a 15 yo girl that was raped by her uncle the right to terminate - which this new law would prevent.
Review bombing does very little and is a little childish - but deciding not to purchase from tripwire if you strongly disagree with Gibson seems valid to me.
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I support Freedom of speech. And that means I support people to say things I may disagree with. I defend the right of people to read, or to write, or to say, what I don't say or like or want said.
Most people I see that fully support Freedom of speech when it suits them, and join cancel culture when they don't.
As an aside, I admit it takes guts to send that tweet, considering that the games journos I feel that usually hate to talk about games, and just want to talk about politics. And they drove Night in the Woods' Game Developer Alec Holowka to suicide, for accusations later proven to be false, or supporter the cancelation of legend Avellone, for accusations that overwhelming evidence say it's false.
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Freedom of speech once again means that the government can't arrest you for your opinion or your speech. It does not mean consequence-free speech. People are free to say whatever it is that they want, there are consequences. Lets say you have a business and you have 10 employees, and one of those employees is racist. As in they are saying racist slurs and posting their shitty comments to your customers or making a big deal of it, do you fire him because it's affecting your business? Yes? Then you believe in consequences for your actions and cancel culture. No? Then enjoy going broke.
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I can totally force an employee in my business to do what I want when he is working..
I can't check his twitter account for something he does in his personal time, unless it's something strictly related to his work with me, his employer.
Also, passive-aggresive comment. As far as I know, being openly racist is something every single member of society frowns on.
It's because it's so easy to fire people in the US, for things not work-related, that employees have so few rights. In Europe, for example, there are laws protecting workers, that are impossible in the US. Specially with the current climate.
I have never understood why people always repeat that "Freedom of speech once again means that the government can't arrest you for your opinion or your speech". Every definition you can find, doesn't say that. Check wikipedia, for example: "Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction"
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I'm in Canada, if I have something representing my company and my company finds out about it they can fire me. Same in Europe, it's right there in his twitter bio that he's the CEO of whatever company. You mean to tell me if you had whatever company you worked for in your bio and you started posting some terrible racist things, they'd be like cool cool whatever it's on your off time. It's in nearly every contract these days so that they can fire you if you do something stupid on social media.
The world isn't as small as you do something on your off-time and it's perfectly fine. If you post some racist/lgbt or some stupid comment about how you support a law that has people spying on women, and it gets back to the people you work with and or costs your company money you are going to be fired, because you decided to create a hostile work environment, or you cost your company thousands of dollars in a stupid publicity stunt. Doesn't matter where you are on the planet you will be fired.
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Not in Europe, actually. The worker's protections are strong. You can't be fired for something you do on your own, unless you are representing or using the company's name. Unless it's illegal, of course.
"hostile work environment" That's something for the courts o decide, not the social media crowd.
"terrible racist things" I am not familiar with the Texan law. But why you keep saying things he didn't do or say?
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You can't be fired for something you do on your own, unless you are representing or using the company's name.
But he did.
And btw. Germany here, and such terms are common in employment contracts. Nowadays you additionally often get a guide how to not use social media in context with the company.
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Not exactly. He was doing it on his personal twitter, and he wasn't talking in the name of his company.
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He brought up being a "pro life game developer" (not even sure what one thing has to do with the other) in this exact tweet. People who knew him before, will certainly know at which company he worked. People not knowing, but curious, will look it up. Do you think that's good PR for Tripwire?
Furthermore he isn't just an employee, but president. People who are known to a wide public, will always be also more checked upon. If I'd would have written that there, barely noone would care. If a celebrity gets caught doing something wrong by a paparazzi, they might blame them, although they gained fame and wealth from being publicly known in first place. You can't cherry-pick there. And this guy wasn't just caught.. he used Twitter to reach a lot people (or for which else reason?). The controversial opinion aside, he acted plainly dumb. The consequence is losing his job (which also isn't a ruined life yet, as some people called it). A lot people have lost their jobs due to unluckier circumstances.
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Are you saying that people even a little well known don't have the right of free speech?
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No, I'm saying that a person who works/lives in public has to be even more careful regarding interviews and public statements and actions (if they fear the possible consequences). Are you aware that e.g. the big football clubs (US franchises probably as well) do media courses for their players? So they learn what to say in interviews? And how to appear on their social media channels? There's a reason for all those commonplaces and repeating statements in those interviews.
Do you think actors feel well about all those pictures of them with their newest love affair or their newborn kids throughout the web?
And it's not, because I say so, that's common experience.
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I checked. You are correct. In Canada you can fire people just for having different political opinions. I am glad I'm in Europe.
Here in Europe you can't fire somebody for having different political opinions. Well, you can, same way you can fire them because you don't like his left ear. But courts don't take kindly to it. And big compensations have to be paid.
"because you decided to create a hostile work environment" That's, for the courts to decide, not social media.
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You can't just say you like O'Toole, Singh or Trudeau, you're fired. That's not a thing. That's a massive labor dispute which the employer will lose. Where they can fire you is if you do something stupid like I said and say a bunch of racist homophic shit that reflects poorly on the company then they can fire you. This isn't a difference of political opinion, we are not tolerant of the intolerant.
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As far as I can see, you are not correct. In Canada the only places with some prohibition against discrimination in employment on the basis of “political belief” are Yukon, Newfoundland, British Columbia, Manitoba, Quebec, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and Northwest Territories. The rest, don't. And federally, there is no protection.
And you can't act stupid as you want. But in Europe legislation protects you, unless you are doing using the company name.
"Hello, I am a racist that works at...." instead of "Hello, I am a racist"
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He did use the company name. It's right there in his stupid twitter profile. Hi I'm the CEO of Tripwire. So what exactly is your argument? And the problem is there is one thing to be pro-life which I think that men really shouldn't have a comment on because again if men got pregnant, this wouldn't be an issue. It's an issue because men who don't understand how women's bodies work are legislating on it and punishing women. And this dude comes out and says that he's for some weird fucking nightmare where bounty hunters are licking their chops to go after people like the unsuspecting Uber driver, or the doctor that performed the abortion. So they can get 10k. This is what this dude is supporting and your argument is well it's okay! He shouldn't have any consequences for being a dumb fuck, despite his name his company being out there on the internet.
Guys a piece of shit, and I'm oh so glad that you care about the rich CEO who didn't need to say shit and stepped in it anyway. He could have easily said I'm pro-life but I disagree with how this texas law was handled, there are hundreds of people who are pro-life saying shit like that and despite being male no one is coming after them.
And I really want to hear the European courts deal with a racist in court, because the vast majority of people don't actually think they're racist when they have biases and they say racist shit, and do racist shit all the fucking time. I had some dude up above try and use some weird xenophobic/borderline racist plea. He'd argue he wasn't racist. But saying that black women are 5 times more likely to have an abortion than their white counterpart belies a shocking ignorance of the information on the ground. Should he be fired over it? No. But if he goes on to talk about black on black crime, and how black people go to jail more, and how dangerous a black male is, then yeah he's racist. He probably doesn't think so, but he is now imagine he says that in the work place. And a black dude or woman hear him. And he's constantly making these comments, and he's making the worker feel like shit. Then how would the European courts decide. Cause clearly what I'm seeing is that the European courts don't take this seriously enough.
He's free to believe anything he wants to believe, that is what freedom of speech is, that doesn't mean that his company has to put up with it. And he's free to argue that you're silencing me, but you get 10 people to basically be like yeah he was saying racist things to me, he was treating me differently, he put a picture of me and a monkey up on his twitter feed and it came back to me. And what? Company just has to keep letting him treat his coworkers like crap? Give me a fucking break. Because that black person leaves, and that company gets a reputation for being pro-whatever this guy does or say.
For example there was a case in the United States where a medical doctor made a statement on Twitter about how she would give Jews the wrong drugs or something along that line. She wasn't as big of a dumbfuck as this dude was because I'm certain she didn't put the hospital that she worked at in her twitter bio. Should she be fired yes or no if her place of employment finds out about it? By your own definition and how proud you are of Europe's political speech laws and how that should be able to say anything and everything you want without consequence and fear from appraisal from your employer. You would be happy to have her as a doctor. Again her hospital wasn't attached to it, people obviously did some digging and reported it to the hospital as they should and if she lost her job. Now if you think that in that case it makes sense, then it makes sense in all cases. You don't get to pick and choose which ones are acceptable to you or not.
Now imagine if that law came into your fancy so much better European courts, if she was fired, You honestly think a bunch of judges are going to be like yeah she can say that and the hospital just has to deal with it? Or should they force the hospital to have someone babysit her for here entire career. What is your solution?
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"But saying that black women are 5 times more likely to have an abortion than their white counterpart belies a shocking ignorance of the information on the ground" I don't even understand. Is it true or not? If it's true, why? Is it just the economic situation? What about other minorities with similar economic situations? What should be done to address that? Apparently you believe that just talking about it is racist. I feel that not talking about it just perpetuates the situation.
"But if he goes on to talk about black on black crime, and how black people go to jail more, and how dangerous a black male is, then yeah he's racist. He probably doesn't think so, but he is now imagine he says that in the work place" Man, what a complicated example. Let's use a real example:
A known prize-winner newspaper reporter of the New York Times was meeting with some south american students, that were asking him questions, and somebody asked, why shouldn't the n word used. The reporter started explaining why they should NEVER use that word, and in explaining, it, he accidentaly said the n word.
There was an official review by the New York Times, asking witnesses, and everybody agreed that it was a mistake.
However, months later, the race-relation columnist in the New York Times (it's a thing, yeah) heard about it, talking with some colleages, and inmediately started a campaign in twitter against his colleage, saying that it didn't matter that it was a mistake. He still should be inmediately fired over it, and blacklisted from every newspaper. Eventually the New York Times buckled under pressure, and they fired him. The race-relation columnist weeks later denounced that his workmates were avoiding him, afraid of being fired for saying the wrong thing around him, and that it proved that all the reporters in the New York Times were racist, and that everybody that complained that the reporter shouldn't have been fired were "white-privilege racists". Also, the prize-winner reporter was a strong support of worker's rights in the newspaper, and the union in the newspaper fell apart.
I know that you totally support the reporter being fired, and that you support the fact that in the US people can get fired over that. However, in Europe, the courts would protect the reporter. And I'm glad about that.
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Let me say it this way, Black on Black crime is a thing in America, whenever there is a shooting in Chicago or something it becomes a rallying cry for the right wing. What's going to be done about Chicago's violence. It's just black people killing each other. Except white people kill other white people, asians kill asians, etc etc etc. No one is talking about these groups at all, why are we focusing on black crime. Not to say that the crime in Chicago isn't a problem, it very much is, but how you talk about things matter.
There is no nuance, in simply stating a statistic. You simply stating a statistic for certain social issues is problematic because again you're trying to paint people with a brush. Yes black on black crime is a problem no one is saying it isn't but I mean a teenager shoots up a school and it's mostly white kids and while the argument turns to guns/mental health. No one is saying White on White violence. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? When a brown person in America you know kills someone or a bunch of people, he's a terrorist. When a white man kills 9 black people in a church, he gets Wendy's and the judge asks the victims to forgive him. So while making the statement black on black crime isn't necessarily racist, it is a dog whistle because again people kill within their own race, black on black crime isn't any worse than white on white crime or any other race on race crime. But it's used in a narrative that paints black people as savages.
As for your attempt to trap me, I don't support that person being fired. Saying the N-word in a classroom or quoting someone doesn't bother me, or even slipping up in this instance where they had a conversation and the guy said the n-word while talking about the n-word. Hell I was the only black kid in my class and we read Huckleberry Finn or Tom Sawyer (whichever one had the dude and the slave and a river) and my white classmates read the n-word out loud. All the while the white teacher was staring at me like he was afraid I was going to be offended.
I look at things in the context at which they are said. I had a Serbian friend ask me this very question because he didn't get it. And I explained it to him and the history behind the word, and while my asian and white friends have said the n-word to me in a jovial fashion. What's up my n-word, I haven't gone on a crusade to get them fired. Because none of what they said was said in malice. Hell when Kendrik Lamar had that white lady on stage and she began to sing his lyrics which contain the n-word and he got pissed I defended her like give me a break dude. She's singing along to a song you wrote, her whiteness doesn't mean that she can't enjoy your music and you know that she's not saying it at you, she's singing along. So you're wrong in what I would support because you don't know me, I think there should be consequences for all actions, and if that means you lose your job because your company doesn't want to deal with the shit storm you created. Then that's a consequence. Hell most black people were like ehh probably shouldn't have done it but her saying the word doesn't make her racist. But do tell me what I believe.
The situation that you described doesn't even register on my radar, people fuck up. They make mistakes they say things that they shouldn't and we shouldn't penalize them for that shit. Especially if they apologize and realize the error of their ways immediately. Like oh shit I shouldn't have said that, I'm sorry. That was wrong of me. Now should the guy get fired? No will some people think that he should get fired, yes obviously. Now let's put your European sensibilities to the test shall we since you're oh so proud to be a European with all your fancy protections:
A woman in Ohio, a medical resident wrote on her twitter page that she would “purposely give all the yahood (sic) the wrong meds,” using the Arabic word, Yahud, which means Jews. She also in various other tweets called Jewish people "dogs" and said the holocaust was "exaggerated and the victimization of the jews (ignoring the others killed) is overdone,"
Should she be a doctor? Should the hospital fire her? I'm not going to assume your answer here. But anyone feel free to chime in. Should she have been fired? Yes or no. I mean I have a feeling you might actually defend this woman but again she did nothing wrong. She was being supervised and they fired her for something that she said in a public forum. I think she should be fired. Why I think you can imagine why. She was a first year resident now, assuming that she passed out with those beliefs in her heart maybe she doesn't give a Jewish Person the best possible care, either way she's a walking liability to the hospital and they really don't have the resources or the man power to just hire a doctor to babysit her for the rest of her career.
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"A woman in Ohio, a medical resident wrote on her twitter page that she would “purposely give all the yahood (sic) the wrong meds,” using the Arabic word, Yahud, which means Jews. She also in various other tweets called Jewish people "dogs" and said the holocaust was "exaggerated and the victimization of the jews (ignoring the others killed) is overdone," That is, like, a doctor that in purpose is saying she is saying she is killing people? Fire her! I don't even understand, what does it have to do with free speech?
"I don't support that person being fired" Why not?
Now if you think that in that case it doesn't make sense to punish him, then it makes no sense in all cases. You don't get to pick and choose which ones are acceptable to you or not.
The race-relation columnist in the fucking New York Times has said that people that has your attitude has "white privilege racism ingrained"? Why should your opinion be better than his?
What about all the people in twitter that joined the campaign to have him fired? Why should we listen to you and not to all of them? What makes you superior to all of them?
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You didn't read it carefully enough the doctor didn't actually do anything, she was a first year medical resident. She wrote all this horrible horrible stuff on Twitter. They fired her, but the hospital also admitted that she hadn't done anything unprofessional in the work place. I thought you said that people shouldn't be fired for saying their political beliefs? I mean Nazism is a political belief system. And in America it's certainly not illegal to be a nazi like it is in Germany. I didn't change my opinion you just did. I don't think everyone should be fired for what they say, I just think the person above is a piece of shit and if he loses his job over his ignorant, dumb statement that's a consequence. I'm not going to cry for a dude who think that the Texas Law is good idea. And this extends to several different professions. What if a teacher said something similar to the doctor said that they would fail <insert race/ethnicity here>. A pharmacist. Any profession where they are in a position of power over someone else and they're saying these things. By your definition they should be allowed to do whatever it is that they want, as long as it's not at work and in their private time despite them saying it on a private forum.
There is a difference between a guy who cat calls a woman on the street and a man who sexually abuses women. Both are bad, but one is significantly worse and sure there are plenty of women who rightfully would say the lot of them should be forced onto an island in the middle of the ocean for the rest of eternity away from civilized people. But there are degrees of punishment for different things. Do both deserve life in prison? No. So while I can acknowledge that this NYT writer saying the N-word was not a good look, and it was bad, the question is was there any malice when he said it. And you can tell. I've been called the N-word before, and I can tell you it's the way they look at you like you're less than human the viciousness as they say it to you. Once you experience that, some dude who is trying to do good, and stumbling isn't high on my priorities. People make mistakes all the time, but people grow and they learn and some mistakes are just that mistakes and should be treated as that.
Why should you listen to me? Who said you should listen to me? If the dude gets fired it's a consequence it's not a cancellation, do I think that some punishments don't fit the crime? Yes. To bring it back to the actual topic at hand. The guy didn't lose his job he lost his title. He's still a part of the company. And Tripwire quite frankly allowed this dude to put in his Christian Rock Music into Killing Floor, they thought it was a good idea, so like the entire company can pound sand for all that I'm concerned.
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Every definition you can find, doesn't say that.
Well, but who is capable of retaliation, censorship or legal sanction? It's the government. Freedom of speech is a concept which shall avoid people getting beaten up or murdered by the executive (police or army) for their beliefs or statements (retaliation). The government isn't allowed to burn your books and scripts or to gag you (censorship). And you can't be punished by the judiciary for expressing your opinion (legal sanction).
Exceptions apply (insults, hate speech, expressing it on other's property etc).
if an employer fires an employee because his behaviour (on duty) is hurting the business and thus risking other people's jobs and incomes, it's not about freedom of speech anymore. This wasn't on duty, but he associated the statement directly with the company and his role there. Causing such a stunt in public will always make a company try to keep the damage small and fire that person (even if compensation has to be paid). And although it's difficult to calculate the possible damage, courts will usually let them get away with it.
Contrary, if an employer fires an employee just because he figured out that his employee has a different politicial opinion or religious belief, and it doesn't hurt the business or the atmosphere between employees at all it's discrimination. Unfortunately, even if you win such a court case as an employee, there is no usually no mutual trust left afterwards to continue the employment.
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"Well, but who is capable of retaliation, censorship or legal sanction? It's the government" Considering that we are on a thread about the former president of a company that had to resign for the cancel culture, I would argue that is not totally correct nowadays.
Also considering big companies, like Amazon, google or twitter has far more control over people's opinions than old goverments ever did, I feel your definition is outdated. Even dangerous, as new monopolies take hold unopposed.
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Don't worry, I'm not a fan of the big tech companies or monopolies/oligopolies in general, so no danger there. However, their own websites, apps and systems are equally protected by property law like Steamgifts is for cg or your house, car, whatever for you.
So let's imagine we wouldn't have internet. Do you think people wouldn't get mad about it, if he would have said this in a TV interview? And that they wouldn't have called the network or his company and rant about it? Maybe boycotting products? That it wouldn't have been criticised in newspapers the next day? Or some people blaming him during the next protest on the streets?
Scandals and public outcries aren't an invention of the internet or the big tech companies. These happen faster now.. (but we all love fast internet, right?) and people use insults, threats and hate speech way more because of reacting directly and because of the "anonymity" (I dislike that, too), but I don't think that the outcome would have been different.
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Let's use another example. A known prize-winner newspaper reporter of the New York Times was meeting with some south american students, that were asking him questions, and somebody asked, why shouldn't the n word used. The reporter started explaining why they should NEVER use that word, and in explaining, it, he accidentaly said the n word.
There was an official review by the New York Times, asking witnesses, and everybody agreed that it was a mistake.
However, months later, the race-relation columnist in the New York Times (it's a thing, yeah) heard about it, talking with some colleages, and inmediately started a campaign in twitter against his colleage, saying that it didn't matter that it was a mistake. He still should be inmediately fired over it, and blacklisted from every newspaper. Eventually the New York Times buckled under pressure, and they fired him. The race-relation columnist weeks later denounced that his workmates were avoiding him, afraid of being fired for saying the wrong thing around him, and that it proved that all the reporters in the New York Times were racist, and that everybody that complained that the reporter shouldn't have been fired were "white-privilege racists". Also, the prize-winner reporter was a strong support of worker's rights in the newspaper, and the union in the newspaper fell apart.
I know that you totally support the reporter being fired, and that you support the fact that in the US people can get fired over that. However, in Europe, the courts would protect the reporter. And I'm glad about that.
Do you really thing that, without internet, people would start a campaign to get this newspaper fired? No. People get offended today in a way that never happened in the past. And people would, at least, try to get some facts, not use twitter, that is made for using no context.
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First off, sorry for late answer, but I'm travelling right now. Secondly I'd like to know how you believe to know what I support. If you are able to read minds, I'd like to know how you achieved that. However, since you are wrong, it doesn't seem to work properly. Behaviour like this is heating up discussions. Just because we have different opinions on this general matter, it doesn't make us opposite extremists or arch enemies.
I dislike exaggerated political correctness and your example fits right in there. Explaining something like that isn't an issue in my eyes and that columnist overreacted and didn't consider the circumstances. Erasing parts of history leads to history repeating itself. If you can't say what's forbidden, how should people know? Also people tend to rather do forbidden things if they don't know the background.
I'm a worker's child, I've been a worker myself for 20 years now, my first seven years I was working at an employment agency. I'm union member. My political orientation is left from middle (EU understanding), I listen to punk and hardcore, my profile picture reveals that easily. I vote for parties supporting worker's rights. However, that doesn't mean that I blindly would support everyone keeping his job. If someone isn't good at his job or behaves lazy, others have to suffer from that. Most people who have worked in teams will know such persons.
Yes, I believe that people got fired over such situations in the past, even in Europe. Not always directly, but after the firing time at least. Whenever a company isn't doing too well, a firing because of economical reasons is pretty easy. To prove that it's another reason is difficult, expensive (if not supported by union) and takes time.
Back in the days (before the internet) there were more local newspapers (with columns by usual citizens), radio and TV stations. People talked about this way more and rumours have made people lose their job as well.
I'm not a fan of social media and only use fake accounts for giveaways. I dislike the hysteria there. And I don't feel the urge to spread statements like this one on Twitter or post pictures on FB every day. I value my privacy.
Now why did he post it on Twitter? To reach a lot of people. That happened.
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I agree I also support Freedom of Speech and not as some vague government concept, but as an ideal that everyone in so called western democracies should live up to. Every political opinion or thought should have right to exist and debate each other openly. Even if some of them are absolutely stupid.
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I'm leaning towards the idea that it was a courageous thing for him to say and that people should be more tolerant towards others' opinions.
I don't agree with him. I think it's a bad law. I also think that people in many places are becoming more and more intolerant towards the opinions of others, and the US is a leader of this movement.
John Gibson knew he had an opinion that a lot of others don't share, and he knew that he's living in a country where you can have any opinion as long as you're not sharing it in public. Because he felt like he was part of a minority, he felt like he should support those who share his opinion.
It's not a great business move, certainly, again because people are willing to let others have other opinions only as long as they're not sharing them. This seems silly to me. If you work with a religious person, regardless of their exact religion, there's a good likelihood they share the opinion John Gibson posted. Does that make them a bad person to make business with? No. It doesn't affect their integrity, or how personable they are, and so on. So having this opinion shared publicly shouldn't make them a worse business partner.
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The key here is the importance between tolerating others' opinions and tolerating others' oppressive opinions.
To take an extreme comparison, "I think women have fewer fundamental rights than the embryo inside her and my ideals should be lawfully enforced against her will" is on a dangerously different level from "I like a different genre in gaming and want the industry to create more of that genre". Tolerance only goes so far.
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From his point of view your opinion is "I think women are allowed to murder babies". The fact that you can't see that is the problem. So let's think it over.
I assume that there's some place along the pregnancy where you'd consider that as infanticide, too. If a woman is 40 weeks into her pregnancy, would you consider killing the baby as her right? Assuming you think it's wrong to kill a baby just before birth, when is it the right time? At 35 weeks? At 30 weeks? At 24 weeks a baby is considered viable, i.e., having a 50% chance of surviving. There've been cases of even 21 week babies surviving
Somewhere along the line from conception to birth each of us has a place where we move from "the woman's choice wins" to "the baby's life wins". That Texan law will give a woman about 6 weeks to do an abortion. That's enough time to notice that she missed a period, and perhaps notice other things. It does give a woman the right to abort (which is more than many religious people would want), and does give her control.
The only problem then is that it gives a woman less control than what you feel is optimal. She needs to be more careful, pay more attention. For you more weeks would have to pass until the embryo is enough of a person that killing it would feel wrong.
That's fine. The problem is that you can't tolerate that another person has a different point along that line. To you it's black or white. If someone gives a woman only 6 weeks to abort, they're a monster who doesn't care about women. Someone like you on the other side similarly thinks that you're a monster, who'd willingly kill a living baby just because some woman decided, first of all, to not use contraceptives, then was stupid or careless enough to ignore her body's signs.
That black and white view is precisely what's wrong (on both sides, just to be clear). Nobody here is a monster. That's true for a lot of other issues, too. People often have valid reasons for their beliefs which those who don't share those beliefs completely ignore even if they are simply at another place of the same spectrum, as you hopefully understand now is the case here. It's much easier to hate others and see them as monsters than treat them as people with a somewhat different opinion.
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From his point of view your opinion is "I think women are allowed to murder babies"
Embryo. Not even a fetus yet, let alone a baby. Embryo.
The fact that you can't see that is the problem.
I'm honestly and genuinely not concerned by the opinions of me that are held by someone so grossly misinformed as to equate a 6-week embryo with an unborn infant.
So let's think it over.
Yes. Let's.
I assume that there's some place along the pregnancy where you'd consider that as infanticide, too.
The good news is: It doesn't matter what I think. Medically trained scientists with far more knowledge on the subject have already been doing that research for us.
The bad news is: They're not being listened to. Science isn't driving this law, religious belief is.
That's enough time to notice that she missed a period, and perhaps notice other things.
To anyone who says that, I say: BULL. SHIT.
Many women don't experience regular and frequent periods in the first place and is a highly unreliable factor in early detection of a pregnancy. Additionally, many pregnancies go completely unnoticed in the first 6 weeks (largely due to my previous statement, but also do to numerous other factors).
...which is more than many religious people would want
'What religious people want' should carry no weight in this discussion. None. Zero. And I refuse to continue to humor the notion.
She needs to be more careful, pay more attention.
If that's the driving force behind this law, we should stop shutting down Sexual Education classes. We should stop diminishing the resources important to 'being more careful and paying more attention'. We should be passing laws to encourage proactive behavior, not waiting to punish them after it's too late.
To you it's black or white
Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I only see black and white. I understand moral ambiguity and I understand that I'm fully capable of being incorrect. But I also understand when religion is attempting to masquerade as moral ambiguity.
...to not use contraceptives, then was stupid or careless enough to ignore her body's signs.
That black and white view is precisely what's wrong
Call me nitpicky if you must, but it's the law (not the view) that created a black and white issue. The law drew a hard line and says DO NOT CROSS. The politicians signed it into law knowingly and intentionally without room for ambiguity nor circumstance. They understood they were taking a grey area and were defining what was white. And what was black. That, is why both support and opposition to the law is so polarized.
(edited for formatting)
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This law would FORCE mothers to endure the medical expenses of childbirth
No, it won't. It will force prospective mothers who are having unprotected sex to give a thought to what they're getting into. I checked on Amazon, and 50 sticks of a pregnancy test can be had for $15. Testing every two weeks will cost less than $10 a year, and should save the need to bypass the law.
By the way, you failed to mention what the scientists say is the right time to stop the possibility of abortion. That would have added to the discussion.
I also don't think there's need for you to foam at the mouth. I said up front it wasn't a good law. What I'm trying to clarify is that it's a workable law. It gives enough time to test for an unwanted pregnancy and abort it. The reason for polarisation isn't the law, it's people's unwillingness to even see the other side. The fact is that you are dead set against religion in the first place, and are unwilling to accept that it's a painful compromise for them, is what makes for polarisation. Even if you don't like it, most people in the US believe in God.
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I'd disagree that it's a workable law. And so does the DOJ. That's why this whole thing blew up in the 1st place and escalated for Tripwire when Gibson gave his support at a clear attempt to undermine the long standing Supreme Court Roe vs Wade (1973). Most people know it will likely be reversed as it is unconstitutional.
Pro Life opinions are fine, but remember that the US is officially Pro-Choice - and has been for nearly 50 years. So for Texas to use nefarious means to bypass that ruling you can see why people are upset. Even half of the Republicans believe this is underhanded.
https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1436044985984499716
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Did he put in the games?
Good point. Ignoring what people and companies say outside of their games, as far as games themselves are concerned, I'm not seeing nearly as many games full of conservative propaganda as I see ones with progressive propaganda...
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He absolutely did. Look up the lyrics to that one song in killing floor 2 about god abandoning people because they kill babies. He literally put his politics into his game lol. Also, it is not like he is just sitting on his couch watching TV and decided to tweet something in his spare time. He is in Seattle right now to promote his company for PAX. He is here in a professional capacity, so I think that with his selfie at pike place market without wearing a mask in front of a gigantic sign that says to wear a mask is a pretty good indication that really wanted to shove his politics down everyone's throats
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I don't see how this is a freedom of speech issue. You can share your views and others are free to find them reprehensible and may not want to be associated with you any more. Also cancel culture is nothing new and not exclusive to leftists on Twitter. People were cancelled all the time in the past and continue to get cancelled now, too. In many cases in a lot worse ways than getting called out on twitter and losing some business deals.
And why should people be tolerant of others advocating for taking away their rights? It's not the 'we can agree to disagree' kind of topic.
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It's kinda funny that some people are surprised by shitstorms. I mean they surely encountered disagreements and controversial discussions in real life. Now why did they post it on social media? To reach more people. As if reaching more people would mean more agreement. How about thinking about what you post before doing so?
Not saying that shitstorms are good, but the term is widely known by now. It's also known that the internet doesn't forget and people tend to easier insult and use hatespeech online, especially in social media.
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There is no right to have an abortion in America, there is a right to privacy. If you take a life in private you are infringing on another person's right to life. I believe that freedom and rights should be as broad as possible until they prevent others from exercising theirs. If you can't agree to disagree, what will you do with people who disagree with you?
With regards to cancel culture, the problem is people being cancelled for things that are frivolous, misrepresented, or divisive (roughly half of USA voters chose Trump, should they all be cancelled?) It's hard to find somebody who thinks Harvey Weinstein shouldn't be cancelled, the vast majority agree that he is a sick individual.
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If you take a life in private you are infringing on another person's right to life. I believe that freedom and rights should be as broad as possible until they prevent others from exercising theirs.
But it's not easy to point out when human life begins and there isn't a widely accepted consensus.
If you can't agree to disagree, what will you do with people who disagree with you?
In this specific example I think it's a perfectly fine reaction to speak out against or boycott people who want to infringe on what you believe are your fundamental rights. I'm not a stereotypical twitter leftie who spends most of their waking time outraged and I don't usually check whether material and immaterial things I consume are produced by people with agreeable beliefs to mine. But if it's that important to you then you have all the right to vote with your wallet and to speak out and that's the way it should be.
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I think we have been convinced that it's difficult to define where life begins. The DNA of the embryo is that of a new human, and it is alive until it dies. None of the metrics people use to say otherwise make sense as far as I've seen so I felt I had to change my opinion on the matter.
And as long as you aren't trying to force somebody to share your opinion I don't see a problem
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I just don't see how the rights of a zygote or small clump of cells could trump the rights of a woman. Was it ever a human person if it gets naturally miscarried in 3 weeks? Are brain dead people still alive? Can a fetus without any brain activity be considered an alive human person? And even if we consider a fetus a person why should it have rights over the body of another person?
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Yes, yes, yes, and the right to privacy shouldn't trump the right to life, which is the prerequisite to all other rights
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Okay so if a woman should be forced by law to keep a fetus alive should you also be forced to become a donor if I need a bone marrow transplant to survive and you are the only known match? What should be people entitled to in order to stay alive to the detriment of others' wellbeing? Is there any limit to it according to your morals or is it absolute so that as long as it doesn't kill the other person I'm entitled to it if it's neccessary for my survival?
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The mother shouldn't be forced to keep the child alive but rather be prevented from taking it's life. Once the child is born it can be put up for adoption if the mother is unable or unwilling to care for it. In your hypothetical situation, I am being forced to save your life rather than being prevented from causing you harm, which I think is significant but was admittedly not clear in my previous comment. You have a right to life but not to my bone marrow lol
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A pregnancy can be very taxing both physically and emotionally. Especially if it's an unwanted one or even worse, the result of rape. You'd be forcing a huge burden on someone else. The unwilling mother is being forced to keep the fetus alive for 9 months and then birth it at the expense of their own wellbeing.
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The only way to be 100% sure not to get pregnant is to not have sex. If you want to have sex and not get pregnant you should use two forms of contraceptives in case one fails. I'm not forcing anybody to get pregnant and those who do, aka rapists, are disgusting and should be punished harshly. Rape victims should be allowed to get abortions because the mother shouldn't be forced to become pregnant without her consent and carry the child of their rapist
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But according to you the rape fetus is a living human with rights and they are clearly innocent themselves. So the right to life can be trumped after all. You are just drawing an arbitrary line on where you consider the harm on the mother too much based on your own feelings.
Though it's reassuring that you find forcing rape victims to give birth too abhorrent to support even if it weakens your argument.
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Dumb argument, sorry but women don't lay eggs. Supermarket eggs generally aren't fertilized and those that are will develop and hatch under the right circumstances
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Harvey Weinstein wasn't cancelled. He was arrested, tried, and convicted by a court of law.
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I see a distinct lack of science here, life doesn't begin at conception or female bodies murder a shit ton of babies naturally, like everyone looking at abortion like it's murder when women miscarry all the time, and if you don't understand that, then you get to be like Latin American countries that are super Catholic and put women in jail for miscarrying.
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Pregnancies can fail naturally at no fault of the mother. They also can fail due to the mother's actions; some causes of miscarriage that the mother can control include smoking, drinking, drug use, being overweight, and even excess amounts of caffeine. Maybe women who use drugs or alcohol or smoke while pregnant should be arrested, or maybe they should just lose custody
"In many states, including Massachusetts, Virginia, Arizona, Alaska and Illinois, it is mandatory that medical professionals who are aware of a positive drug test in a newborn report it to Child Protective Services. This report can lead to many consequences for the mother, including an investigation and the loss of the right to parent her child." Source
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And I disagree with that, people do drugs, people drink, they smoke all the time, sometimes before they even realize when they're pregnant. Do you know why people say to wait until after the first trimester to announce that they're pregnant? For that very reason. Then what about the people who simply didn't know that they were pregnant. Some women are caught by surprise. And what about the women who are going to give birth to stillborn children. Or perhaps you think they should give birth to a child who won't live because they have a severe form of various lethal developmental disorders.
I don't think you're pro-life at all, you're just against women and that's fine. Because once you start fucking with these things women will die. Women will go to prison for for miscarrying naturally. All those women who are desperate to get pregnant who spending thousands of dollars to try and get pregnant, the fact that women have so many reproductive issues, pcos, endometriosis. Then there is the fact that the US has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in G7 countries. You're perfectly fine with women dying for potential life. Again until a fetus is capable of living on it's own, around the 22-24 week mark, it's not alive, and it should have no rights.
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Humans aren't able to live on their own for many years after they are born, do you think an 8 year old is not alive and should have no rights? And no I don't hate women, at least half of all the abortions kill a female and much more than half in China India and Pakistan where they value having male children over females. Do you hate women? Black women get abortions at 5 times the rate of white women, so maybe you hate the blacks and want to see them keep killing their unborn children.
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Black. Female. Lesbian.
But try and tell me how I hate women. I see the problem you're profundly ignorant and I'm not going to educate you on something you can never experience. Lol Men trying to tell me that they love women while also attempting to control women hahahahaha
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I thought about this while in class today mostly because I was bored, and I want to say this to you. There is no concievable way that life starts when sperm meets egg. Sperm meeting egg does not mean you go on to have a full pregnancy. You can get ectopic pregnancies through again no fault of the woman, that's a medical emergency ie the woman would die and so would the "fetus" so you get rid of it. No one who is intelligent and has an ounce of empathy will say no of course not. Life can't grow, a fetus for lack of a better analogy is a seed. It could possibly grow into a human, I'd argue that as long as the fetus enters viability, it can live with a bit of medical help, then it's a human and should have rights.
That being said you're profoundly ignorant on a lot of things. Like one of the people who would state black on black crime and say why it's a problem, without realizing that you're entering very dangerous racial territory, I wouldn't say you're a racist but you are definitely entering the territory. People are more likely to marry and live with other there own race, white people kill white people, black people kill black people, asian people generally kill other asians. So why the focus on black lives? Because it's easy to paint them as a villain. The same can be said about a lot of your statement.
Black women are more likely to be impoverished, they have higher maternal mortality rates then there white counter parts, they are the ones that are saying I can't afford to raise a child and guess what type of babies that are the least attractive to people black babies. I can explain why that's a thing.
If you want to get rid of abortions, birth control needs to be made free and readily available. Sexual education including consent needs to be taught, you need to stop making it such a fucking taboo. If the Texas law is your solution and you're happy with it, then you hate women. If you're a dude and think that you have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body, then you hate women. If you think a fetus, which again is a seed is more important than the will of a fully formed woman, and again women can have periods as young as 7&8 these days, if you think that a child that young should have a baby if they get raped by a family member you're just an absolute shit person, and you do hate women. Maybe not in the whole incel way, but you do understand that your belief is completely different then my belief, and I'm actually the one who's right in this argument, I'm not thinking about bouncing smiling babies. You don't get to tell me what to believe or what to do with my body.
You know what would also stop most abortions, giving most straight men vasectomies after puberty. Why isn't that a solution? Because that violates their bodily autonomy? It's legit the same thing.
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I never cared about the opinion of someone from a gaming company, band, movie etc if i like his/her product i will still enjoy it. A product of entertainment is not just one person, many people are paid and feed their family from that.
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many people are paid and feed their family from that.
I may not agree entirely with you as I can't disconnect a person's private acts from their product, for example Ian Watkins being the voice of Lostprohets, but this is a very fair argument.
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Well said, one bad apple shouldn't ruin the whole orchard.
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I'm totally pro-choice and I find it horrible to force a woman to pursue a pregnancy she doesn't want. And I agree public figures that aren't political figures should probably, as a rule of thumb, keep their political opinions to themselves.
That being said, it's quite revealing to see what a backlash is caused when a developer dares express a conservative opinion compared to the complete absence of negative consequences, if not a massive amount of praises, when a developer expresses a progressive opinion. We once again see which side is the tolerant one...
(just to be clear, I'm not saying that for OP, just as a general remark, notably with the drop in ratings and contract cancellations)
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I wouldn't be so quick to throw shade on either side as far as reactions to events / opinions go. Have you been on the internet when Gillette aired their progressive advert or when Nike stared Kaepernick in one of theirs?
E: Fixed some typos
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Tbh, I just hadn't heard about these ones until now
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Don't take me wrong. I'm not for restricting abortion rights, I'm for freedom of opinion and speech. And I'm all for equal rights for LGBT+ folks, though at odds with some parts of LGBT+ ideology and demands, as quite a few LGBT+ folks are. And I don't mind getting blacklisted by folks, who think otherwise, which will certainly happen today.
This criticism of John Gibson is very hypocritical for me. Especially, when I don't recall the same kind of condemnation, when other companies officially, not in private statements, make politically correct moral and political statements, which are in line with majority opinion, but still offend a significant minority - example here. Well, unless they go as far, as Cyberpunk seemed to go in their statement, and even remove an option to select being just a woman or a man ;)
It sounds like it's OK to openly voice your personal opinions, if they are popular with public, but you should avoid voicing them, when you are in a minority. Hell, maybe you even should pretend, that you agree with the majority? For the good of your company OFC... But in a long term, if the good of the company becomes more important than ethics, sure, then we can understand all those German companies wholeheartedly supporting Nazis, and and not even publicly objecting to the use and treatment of concentration camp prisoners... So was Nuremberg a mistake?
There are OFC limits on freedom of speech as well. But they should go along the lines of what is criminal in our opinion, and not of what we dislike, disagree with and what is a minority view. So, don't worry, Nazi apologists and folks "jokingly" naming themselves Child Rapist or so will still get on my blacklist, if there are more here, that I've still not blacklisted.
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Here's the thing, that I disagree with.Everyone says that Republicans and Conservatives can't state their opinion online without it becoming a shit storm. To which my response is, what are they trying to express? Because usually when the Republicans/Conservatives say shit it's beyond problematic whether it's racist, sexist, or against another community for whatever reason.
In this specific case it's abortion rights, the issue with the Texas Law isn't just that it bans abortions, it's that they went about it in a purely disgusting and problematic way. Cyberpunk had an issue that drew outrage, but guess what they either backtracked or they fixed it. If a Republican or any conservative starts talking about black on black crime, they're being racist. Like there is a nuance to a lot of these discussions and just saying you're pro-life when you're a dude and don't understand how pregnancies work, is going to piss a lot of people off. Why because he will never get it, and instead of listening or even educating himself on the topic he decided to simply state a rather stupid opinion. He's pro-life. He's never going to have an abortion because he can't ever get pregnant. So it's easy for him to say he's pro-life. Women are the ones that have to face this difficult decision, and there are some pretty good guys out there that get it, that tthey don't have the right, they might get disappointed they might be upset about it, but they don't have the right to demand that a woman carry a baby to term.
The vast majority of men don't actually understand how pregnancies work, to them dick in vagina, pew pew sometimes I hit the mark and well we get baby. I'd make an argument that the vast majority of women who get pregnant don't actually understand the biology either, but that ignorance is a massive problem that needs to get rectified. There was legit a Republican who had an argument that real rapes can't get women pregnant, because the woman's body shuts down. How about this for a compromise, don't legislate on shit you don't know anything about.
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Do you mean, that because according to our definitions what they say is ymddist, deeeddist or ffddklist, it's OK for us to be outraged, when they voice their opinions or if they are outraged by our opinions, and it's especially OK for us to be outraged, when they, being such an old fashioned and dying out minority, at times, by winning Presidential Elections, usurp themselves the right to even falsely pretend to be a majority?
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If you don’t recall the same condemnation from the other side, it’s because you’re not paying attention.
Nike got a lot of condemnation for its support of BLM, Dixie chicks had their careers ended for criticising GWB, Colin caepernick can’t get a job.
Ever seen the iconic picture of the 1968 Olympic s black power salute? Look up how their careers went afterwards.
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the tp roll must always go under... there ought to be a law
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The funniest observation is that people are uninstalling all of Tripwire's games (even going so far as adding them to a collection in their Steam libraries called 'Trash', etc.) thinking that somehow defeats the company - you already paid for those games. The company doesn't magically lose revenue because you uninstalled their game(s).
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I don't understand why this is such a massive issue. Being prolife or prochoice in itself shouldn't be a reason to hate someone regardless of the camp you sit in.
If someone is spewing some pretty hateful shit like "Abortion shouldn't happen, even if the woman's life is at risk" then they deserve all the ire that comes their way.
Beyond someone being an ignorant extremist, I can respect people's stance on these things, whether I agree with them or not.
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This one is a bit trickier I think. As I understand, Republican Texas would love to have abolished abortion altogether, but can't because of a landmark decision of the U.S. Supreme Court Roe vs Wade (1973) that protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose to have an abortion.
In an apparent ploy to get around this, the law enacted last week in Texas, limits abortion to max 6 weeks - when the foetus is no bigger than a pea, and often the woman may not even know she is pregnant at that stage. It also now does not provide exceptions for rape and incest.
So for example, a 15yo girl raped by her uncle is denied the choice if she determines too late that she is pregnant. The UK for example has a cut off of 24 weeks - and so it's not hard to see why Gibson's direct support of this has drawn some attention.
Also - hate is not the same as unwilling to support a company. He's actually been quite brave making a stand against a very unpopular law - if he has done it for the attention or pure belief (probably) is another story.
Strangely enough, he did support action to combat racism and police brutality a few years ago which would be the opposite side of the political divide.
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Yeah, I don't really follow the individual state laws in America, but I can understand that. People can be really fucking weird.
Actually, to echo your example, there was a young girl here in Ireland many years ago. I think she was 12, I'm not 100% sure, but she was very young. Her parents were fighting for her to have the baby. Abortion was illegal in Ireland at the time, but the courts still made her a ward of the state and sent her to the UK for an abortion. This girl could have died or become disabled had she been forced to continue her pregnancy. There are asswipes out there who think this kind of situation should be left to nature. My question would be "how did a child become pregnant in the first place." I hope someone was held responsible for that. She was anonymous, so no idea what happened in relation to abuses etc.
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The other issue is the way the law is written. It leaves enforcement to individuals. Anyone can sue an abortion provider - if they lose it costs them nothing, if they win they win a prize ($10,000). The abortion providers can’t recoup their costs even if the lawsuit has no merits.
Oh, and.”abortion providers” who can be sued are anyone who aids someone in getting an abortion… including family members who drive them there
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The long and the short of it is that I find it presumptuous for a man to make any determination what a grown woman should or shouldn't do with her body or anything contained therein.
To take an opinion on the subject (regardless of which way you lean) to Twitter as the leading representative of a company is just ludicrous.
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John Gibson, president of Tripwire Interactive tweeted the following yesterday:
"Proud of #USSupremeCourt affirming the Texas law banning abortion for babies with a heartbeat. As an entertainer I don’t get political often. Yet with so many vocal peers on the other side of this issue, I felt it was important to go on the record as a pro-life game developer."
The Tweet
Personally, I think he should have kept his opinions to himself, but it's already caused a drop in game ratings (Killing Floor 2 for example) as well as partners cancelling current contracts:
Partner studio ends contracts with Tripwire over company president's support for abortion ban
I'm assuming most of us here prefer politics to be kept out of gaming, but when the president of a gaming company makes a bold stand, it's bound to get political? Opinions welcome - and I'm sure we'll be divided on this too, but can we try not to insult each other when expressing them here?
UPDATE:
Tripwire Appoints new Interim CEO, Alan Wilson, as Company Moves Forward
September 6, 2021
The comments given by John Gibson are of his own opinion, and do not reflect those of Tripwire Interactive as a company. His comments disregarded the values of our whole team, our partners and much of our broader community. Our leadership team at Tripwire are deeply sorry and are unified in our commitment to take swift action and to foster a more positive environment.
Effective immediately, John Gibson has stepped down as CEO of Tripwire Interactive. Co-founding member and current Vice President, Alan Wilson, will take over as interim CEO. Alan has been with the company since its formation in 2005 and is an active lead in both the studio’s business and developmental affairs. Alan will work with the rest of the Tripwire leadership team to take steps with employees and partners to address their concerns including executing a company-wide town hall meeting and promoting open dialogue with Tripwire leadership and all employees. His understanding of both the company’s culture and the creative vision of our games will carry the team through this transition, with full support from the other Tripwire leaders.
Source
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