I think they have a right to deny the free key to anyone they will. Gosh, it's in every shop, cinema, etc.: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".
As for the rude comment - that was really unprofessional and unacceptable. But you scream about homophobia, while I see a common Internet discourtesy. If he just said "fuck you" without explaining his position you would probably just forget it, but since he mentioned LGBT you prepare torches and pitchforks.
I don't think that being homophobic is bad - everyone has a right for their own opinion, however being impolite is bad, especially in a rather formal dev-player communication.
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they can't refuse any one by being black, female, asian, gay and so on because that is a criminal offense in many country
except if you are a transgender in canada, no right for them yet, they are planing to change that soon (for real lol )
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Thanks for the information, upvoted the review. Down with queerphobes and assholes D:
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damn, so much drama just because they said you to fuck off? no wonder they dont support lgbt, +1 for them.
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They're equal to us, not special. The developer made a hate speech. And I'm against hate speeches.
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"we dont support lgbt" is a hate speech? wow, okey then
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From wikipedia:
Hate speech, outside the law, is speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation.
The developer sweared at Niv just because he/she support LGBT. So, YES, that was indeed a hate speech.
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nope, he told her/him whatever it is "fuck you", also calling him a homophobic is ridiculous as well, not supporting something doesnt make you a hater, and last one, his english is shitty so who knows what he really meant. So, NO, it was not a hate speech.
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No, he told Niv "f*ck you", only because he/she supports LGBT. And he actually said afterwards that this is why he didn't give him/her a game, only because he's against LGBT. Yes, this was a hate speech because he attacked him/her because of his/her beliefs. And that's what he meant, because he made even more comments on Niv's steam thread. And even though I'm 100% sure this was a hate speech, let's just that it wasn't. Even if it wasn't a hate speech, why would someone support a developer that discriminates people? Just because we are straight, we should be like "Ok, it doesn't affect us, so we don't give a damn about minorities"? Only an uneducated person would discriminate people. And even then, there are a lot of uneducated people that aren't bigoted. The developer though is totally bigoted.
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"he/she", cringe as fuck, i have hard time reading that comment to be honest so i just quit right here.
ps: i dont consider myself equal to lgbt
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You're not equal to LGBT? Oh, I'm sorry then, mister Master Race, I may have misunderstood you. There was someone else in the past that wanted to make a master race, but I can't seem to remember his name. :B :B
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Ok, I know that you're trolling now, so I won't say anything about this. xD
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Saying a certain someone who was after making a 'master race' did nothing wrong isn't trolling? Jesus dude, try harder.
I mean yeah, TLS is going a bit off the deep end but when you bait someone, sometimes they'll bite. You're only getting what you geared for.
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"cringe as fuck"
I love how 'cringe' has become a buzzword that basically boils down to nothing more than "I'm judging you" .
A real 'Becky' move. ;P
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no, it just simply means it is hard to read, because it sound stupid to me, but yeah, tell me more about myself please.
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In that case you're misusing a common buzzword. Calling something "cringey" has come to mean that you're blanketly judging something without any real context. It's kind of a new version of randomly calling something a "fedora" or "cuck". The term itself is often used nonsensically and as a way to demean.
I'd totally agree with you that the use of he/she is hard to read (why not use the non-specific 'they', which is far better).
You just accidentally stumbled over some funky internet dialog is all. I suppose it's easily done. Benefit of the doubt, etc.
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The mighty wikipedia also says, that "asian pride", "black pride" or "gay pride" are awesome and "white pride" is fascist and wrong. I'm offended as a straight white man because of that, but no one would call it hate speech or anything. Why?
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I guess that asian pride, black pride, and gay pride, are terms to describe unity against bigotry. White pride is, well, not against bigotry, but for bigotry. We're all equal. Anyway:
Hate speech, outside the law, is speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation.
White pride isn't a gender, not an ethnic origin, not a religion, not a race (it doesn't represent the whole caucasian race), not a disability, not a sexual orientation. White pride is a belief that white people are superior over another races. So, it's about bigoted and racist people. :/
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Disclaimer : 'Pride' issues, like all other issues, will vary greatly depending on where you live. Even if the loudest voices tend to be the most toxic, the concept of pride goes beyond marching parades, and can be held in soft voices and simply unity even in online communities. I recognise that certain white pride marches may be overrun by bad eggs, but I am not familiar enough to comment on that part of the equation.
White pride is falsely equated to bigotry. Gay pride is falsely equated to people dancing naked in the streets or being absurdly flamboyant and in-your-face. These are convenient things that people draw upon (and spread) to dirty the names of a group they disfavor. White pride is similarly falsely equated to skinheads, racism and oppressing non-whites. I mean, couldn't your logic be applied to other prides? That somehow by celebrating your heritage and accomplishments as a denomination, you believe yourself superior above all others? That's not the case.
While it is true that here in the modern west, the white populace hasn't faced the same degree of historical adversity and struggle, to instantly equate pride to prejudice is a harsh leap of logic. I'll even concede that the pride stereotypes do hold some degree of truth, but they are still generalisations, and generalisations always overlook the individual factor. Every group has bad eggs, and every pride parade has folks that don't respect other people's boundaries. To blanketly call an entire 'pride' bigoted, but to celebrate the others outright, is in itself a giant double standard.
I don't dispute that white pride is has an alarming number of bad eggs, but no group is a hivemind. Even when modern feminism is being eaten alive by social-media driven extremism that often dips into outright toxicity (and yes, I know this is due to encroachment of social justice extremists), we don't consider individuals who believe in the ideals of feminism to be poisonous, do we? I think it's a vital distinction to make. Subsets of larger groups have always been able to cast a horrible light on things, creating distaste by association.
Hold individuals to their actions and to their words, but when addressing a group that is otherwise righteous at it's core definition, always specify when you're talking about the extremists. For instance, I dislike both feminist and MRA extremists, but I believe that both causes at their roots are vital to keeping a consistent dialog about gender rights as a whole. Both groups have high-profile people acting in awful ways, but that should not be taken to mean the group is utterly morally bankrupt and that all it's members agree with those actions.
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First of all, you are right. I can't talk about an ideology just because of some of its bigoted followers, because that makes me bigoted myself. For example, just like Gandhi said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ". Still, till now, all I've seen is bigoted people following this ideology. And isn't white pride about white supremacy, meaning that they believe that the caucasian race is better than the other races? Because if that's what it is about, then isn't it bigoted itself? Feel free to correct me though, because I'm not an expert on this matter.
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Neither am I, but (Insert Group Here) Pride is more of a catch-all term for people celebrating the achievements of the group.
Pride groups can fall into supremacists or into peaceful enthusiasts.
What I'm saying is that even if there are a large number of White Pride groups that are openly prejudiced, there will still be White Pride groups that are the civil variety (even if they are in decline, not wanting to face assumptions). Consider for example that when anybody mentions Gay Pride, they immediately think of inappropriate behavior, varying degrees of public nudity, and exaggerated shows of public affection designed to be provocative (and sometimes to deliberately annoy those they suspect might be anti-gay). Yet at the same time, there are a ton of people who identify as part of the Gay Pride movement who celebrate it by literally just having a quiet get together with friends as like an excuse to meet up, or simply wear a small rainbow accessory as a token of support and leave it at that. Detractors usually focus on the worst elements, and then cast that judgement across all who identify by the name. It's tricky, but it's a trap that even the best of us fall into doing at some point.
Though to be fair, it seems in recent years the extremes of pride movements have been driving the more chill individuals away from using that term. They're still technically 'White Pride' or 'Gay Pride', but they don't use the name for fear of being attacked for it (or for being judged for things they don't do). Once they abandon the name, they seldom have another unified name to gather under. It happens to other groups too, not just pride movements. Feminism, the mens rights association, social justice, hell even gun enthusiasts or specific political groups can get overrun by extremists, and when the reasonable peaceful people leave, it's like the entire thing has mutated horribly. I used to call this "Name poisoning" or "Term poisoning". The term 'gamer' even underwent a version of this when feminist and mens rights extremists clashed over social media figures (think back to the Anita Sarkeesian days).
I guess what I'm saying is that it pays to be careful about generalisations. If you ask most people, they'll agree that White Pride is a supremacist movement, but by the same token if you ask most people, they'll also say that feminism is about being obnoxiously aggressive over small issues, or obsessing over whether the pillars in a historical ruin are 'too phallic', or "arent they those people who made art with vaginal discharges?". Do you get what I'm saying?
Sorry to be all preachy, this thread has dug up a lot of old bitterness and it's depressing to realise that very few people actually genuinely mean bad by it, but they still end up butting heads all the same. There is a lot of fire exchanged over these party lines, and a lot of it is fueled by confirmation bias and 'accidentally' judging other people the same way they have been misjudged.
Again, sorry for the big post, I find it hard to articulate these things because they're pretty complex. I don't like leaving stones unturned, because otherwise it sounds like I'm glazing over the issue or taking sides. :P
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I have to say, in this case, a big post was good. It's rare seeing people converse objectively on this subject, so I've quite enjoyed reading yours and Shamrock's discussion! I believe he made it on my whitelist due to an earlier comment in this thread, and you're there now as well.
On the topic though, I guess. Judging by your thoughts later on in this thread in response to someone, I'd likely fall under the stance of a "supporter". I've got a couple of friends who are gay or bi-sexual, they're no different from anyone else in this world. I like to think we're all equals here, who cares what gender we like? I believe at this point it's just decadence based on how we were raised, as well as our governments and/or location that causes people to judge.
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Thank you, thank you. :D And since the stats photos are a trend, here's mine:
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Somehow i'm more offended that trash keeps being sold on steam. Its always a sad day when i see such games on the store front.
Here we have, yet again, another "prototype" for a "game" that does not exist, will never exist and somehow "Devs" keep fooling fragile minds by throwing the words Early Access
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To be honest they are free to do what they did, but that was a shitty case of prejudice. Rainbow in avatar = LGBT? What the f... sure you can "assume" but to go that far right off the bat is just silly. And yes that was extremely unprofessional.
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Good to know that i am mutant, because i am atheist and don't have any problems with transgenders etc. The only thing is, i don't see any tentacles or something in myself. :O xD
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Keep your eyes open, maybe you're one of the cool X-Men kinds of mutant.
Here's hoping you get a cool power and not something sucky like mine : The ability to disrupt electronic equipment by belching really loud.
(that's actually only half a joke)
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There's nothing wrong with them not being a supporter, however they were wrong to insult you, and to block you is childish on their part since you're a potential customer.
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Don't know what to say... I don't care if somebody is homophobic, I can live with that (I'm gay myself), but if some game developer is, he should not care if his players are gay, straight or whatever, and should not show it like that.
They posted some kind of explanation, not sure what to think about that...
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Strongly disagree. They fired the guys who crossed the line and restated their stance in a respectful way. Unless you want to (baselessly) accuse them of lying about firing the employees, there's nothing more that you can reasonably ask them to do here.
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Respectful? Hardly, it came across as pretty damn patronising :
"The truth is we have never supported and will not support LGBT and we feel bad for those people even if they feel happy about themselves."
It comes across as a "We're sorry we got caught" rather than a "We're sorry we crossed the line, in several incidents, in several places".
Consider they also previously said that anybody supporting LGBT is abnormal, and they even got in a passive nationality jab too. While their apology was undoubtedly effected by the language barrier (which can always makes people seem insincere), the content is vague about exactly what they're apologising for. They actually restated that they don't support LGBT, which only cements their position as a whole company, not just as one or two individuals lashing out.
I mean, yeah, an employee being fired for saying "fuck you" isn't too abnormal, nor is making passive threats or getting all nationalist at people in a host-company forum, but given they had previously used at least one puppet review to help boost their game, and then the tone of the apology? It's not entirely baseless to expect them to pay lip service without actually doing anything about it. You're right that there's nothing else we can reasonably ask of them, because we have already asked it of them : "Rethink your approach towards your misgivings". I would never expect prejudice to change over night, and not without some great epiphany, but given the culture they seem to be immersed in, that is highly unlikely.
I'd like to believe there is a group leader facepalming right now, grumbling about the clumsiness of their associates. It wouldn't be the first time a dumb coworker had cast a horrible shadow on an otherwise mostly-okay company (that one incident with Paranautical Activity comes to mind), but I don't see it happening. The flags don't add up.
But hey, if they can prove us wrong, I'm sure we'll all be damn glad for it!
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Also, saying you fired people doesn't mean shit. There may not have even been people to fire in the first place- there were indications it was a one-man show, and the grammar of the apology is suspiciously similar to the original comments.
At this point, any gestures short of reforming as a new company with a new game are pretty futile gestures.
*To reclarify, I mean there will always be doubt in regard to that company and its practices, now.
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Not supporting LGBT is fine. What they did over Facebook was not. They don't have to change their stance, no matter how much some people would like them to. They just have to be fair to people who diasgree, which they've agreed to do in the future. If they've lied, that will become obvious down the line. For now, there's been one incident and one apology, so I'm willing to take them at their word.
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You're right, though I won't hold my breath.
Here's hoping I'm wrong though.
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Well, that's a bad idea for them. I really do hope that they are going to have a baaad time now. Telling customers to f*** off...
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You just called out the dev publicly by telling he's "homophobic" therefore putting him on public hate because world is such a politically correct place. Yeah, nice job. Homoterror everywhere. Stop making yourself a victim because someone hated your rainbow profile pic. There are many kind of hate happening everyday, but the most serious to you people is this whole homophobia.
EDIT: I got 20+ blacklists. To the people that blacklisted me: Is this your free speech? Hate speech? Because I feel offended, because I wanted to say what I think and you just blacklisted me.
Some time ago I was against any homosexual or LGBT. However after discussing few things I'm aware, that homosexual is a real thing and it was, it is and will be on this planet. Now I'm not agains homosexuals, but against promoting it all over. I'm heterosexual and I don't need to promote it anywhere. You won already, majority of countries are including same-gender marriage, so .. the topic is closed now. I don't understand it.
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Are you implying that the person they told to fuck off should try to protect the developer from hate, by deliberately not talking about their bad behaviour? Because it certainly seems that way.
Read the OP. They didn't make themselves out to be a victim. They simply laid the info out. That's it.
And yes, there is a lot of hate happening everyday, and yes, there are more serious forms of it than simply being abhorrent on the internet in key giveaways. Yet that doesn't mean we should just give it a free pass and also sneer at the people who dare to talk about it, like you are right now.
Believe it or not, people can care about multiple things at once.
The OP didn't try to rally people to hate or attack them, they simply made everyone aware of the developer's stance on a certain slice of the populace, and how vocal they were about it. You might be amazed to realise people don't want to support entities that are needlessly crude or exclusionary towards their race / gender / sexuality / age / nationality / whatever.
There is zero reason to fall over yourself to try protect them from mere basic observation.
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Yes, that's true. Still I'm sure that OP wouldn't get such a big response and 2k votes up on Steam if it wasn't about homosexuality.
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Is there anything wrong about it? There is always something "more serious" to worry about, yet we as humans are not entirely objective. Heck, everyone is so worked about zika these days after a few deaths in the West, while malaria keeps killing thousands (and so does the flu!). But this is not necessarily a bad thing either: if we always chose to focus on the "worst" things out there, then many dramatic situations taking place now would go unnoticed and continue happening.
That being said, homophobia is actually quite serious in the grand scheme of things: still today, people are killed or sentenced to prison just for being attracted to the wrong gender in many countries; in many others, though no longer a crime, homosexuals face discrimination at all sort of levels. Even in places where it's apparently tolerated, there are some who make gays and lesbians suffer just because... well, they were born this way. And that is not by any means acceptable, as it is the case of any other type of discrimination.
Homoterror, you say? Terror is what LGBT people feel day to day, not just in countries where it's punishable by death, but also in the so-called progressive societies. And the fact that other minorities are in the same -or even worse- situation does not justify it. So those who are responsible for it must be stopped, not because the world is a "politically correct place", but because we want it to be a better place.
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How would you like it if he told you to fuck off because you're polish?
The devs invited people to ask for a key, then told her/him to fuck off because of a picture of a rainbow on their avatar?
What if their picture had shown a black person and they said they don't support mixing races?
And since when has pointing out unjust or bad behaviour been a bad thing because worse things have happened? That's like saying quit complaining about a few poles killed during the war because millions more of other countries died.
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We all could be a victims.
If someone said to me to duck off because I'm polish, then I'm sure that if I created thread like this complaining about it I wouldn't get so big positice for me response, because people care for something they show them in TV. That's my problem.
For example I got 20+ blacklists because of this post. Isn't it some type of hate? Some type of discrimination because I don't agree with mass?
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No, because we're individuals, not a business.
And it wouldn't be blacklisting because of you being polish, it would be blacklisting because of your behavior. There's a difference.
Yes, we could all be victims, but that's not an argument to say that those who signpost bad behaviour should be silent.
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16 comments in 4 years and this is one of them. Truly astounding,
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All of you shout about hate, shout about equality, shout about rigths.
But here is a truth. You all two-faced scambags.
You can't accept another opinion. Only your is right.
If it will be a straight guy, nobody gives a shit.
But if it somethink else, all this fake rights defenders arrives.
And pull a load of hate on people, who don't with them.
"You don't have a right too say this"
But you laught about my knowledge in English, about my low social activity.
You protect one tipe of people, and pull load of hate on other.
You don't wanna peace, you don't wanna equality.
All you want it's another war.
Just like all of it two-faced society where we live right now.
Here a sample of it. http://puu.sh/peW73/199eac5784.png
(Just random Russian girl, who badly now English and who tired about all this hypocrisy)
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So, if the dev didn't give you a key and said "fuck off you russian" it would be okay? oO
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Yes, becouse is a human nature. We must hate somethink. And stop crying about it.
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That was quite a lot of crying you just did after you got blacklisted for saying "You just a fuckin attention whore".
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You sure about that? It's okay to not serve you in a restaurant but just say "fuck off you russian scum"?
That's really fine with you?
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Its happends sometimes, but people here dont even try find peaceful path to avoid it. They just bring more hate.
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So, if I understand you right. If someone is treated badly they shouldn't complain or speak about it? Just move on and let others treat you like crap and never have to fear any consequences?
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There is a difference between a peaceful path and absolute silence.
This thread did not call for retaliation or attacks, it simple made people aware of an obnoxious person, nothing more.
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But people don't just avoid this game, they bombing it wiht angry rewiew and make it like it's a "BIG THREAT OF LGTB"
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So? What's wrong about holding someone accountable for their actions?
If you're going to defend people's right to be obnoxious, why would you draw the line at letting them face the consequences of their behaviour? Why would you insist on freedom to speak your mind in one hand, but then to insist on restraint in the other when it comes to the reply?
Also, why do you hold people to that standard, when you yourself came in here to inflict your directionless rage on everyone? If you can't even do it, why do you expect others to choose silence when it touches on the subject of prejudice, a subject that is notorious for breeding through tolerance of improper behaviour?
What you're actually asking people to do here, is to ignore bad behaviour when it is directed at them, but not to engage in that same behaviour themselves. You're asking people to turn the other cheek for nothing... while you're one of the people swinging a punch. Do you realise how ass-backwards that is? :P
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They all just hypocrisy.
"Look, i'm a right defender, respect me" Thay all about it.
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Isn't that exactly what you're doing?
The difference is that you're defending someone who made the first aggression.
The others are defending someone who simply tried to take part in a contest, and then passed on the info in a neutral tone.
You're asking people to do something that you cannot do, yourself. Only they have a more rational reason to want to send a clear negative signal.
If this was a fight in a bar, the OP would be someone who was invited to a party, but then had a drink thrown in their face by one of the hosts because they don't like that they have red hair. What you're seeing here is all the other guests booing that one host for being a pointless jerk. Your part in this scenario would be someone who is furious that anyone would dare question the rude host, and have gone so far as to accuse everyone of being "secretly just as drink-throwy", and you tell them its bad manners to boo people... while you boo them yourself. :P
Do you see how strange your approach is?
(that probably won't translate very well, sorry)
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Ok, if it will be bar.
OP ask for cigarette from some dirty punk (cus that publisher make a really badly game), he just say fuck off call him fag.
People around her this and starting boil over "It's becouse his a gay, how dare you", but they do it onle for boastfulness and trying to pick up some girl "See, i support gay community, can i buy you a drink".
But not one of them do it to help OP. One one even give him dat cigarette, even if they have it.
And then i arrive and sey to that people "What a bunch a poser", and they start screamin on me "How dare you, i support them, you do nothink" and start throwing stuff in me.
So, yeah, it's look strange for me.
(don't worry, it's a good practice for me, so atleast a take somethink good in this situation)
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That doesn't work at all. It's outright ludicrous.
Your example randomly accuses LGBT supporters of trying to get laid by supporting equality, and that anyone who claims to be disgusted by the host's actions are just faking it for their own gain. You have zero basis for this, and is simply absurd.
You of all people shouldn't be implying other people are posers or hypocrites, while adopting such a baseless stance.
Unless your mention of trying to pick someone up was a metaphor, then I have no idea what you're trying to refer to.
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That's real life hate speech. In real life and the place I live, it's a criminal offense.
Why are you comparing interaction on Internet with real life? That doesn't even make sense.
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Care to reply to my questions? I'd like to hear what you have to say in defense of your position, or whether it was a spur of the moment lash-out. I'll re-post what I wrote to remind you they're still waiting :
"You will find that the internet and other forms of digital communication also exist in real life, dude. :P
Are you saying physical proximity is a factor in hatespeech?
Even if the company that engages in hatespeech uses the internet as their primary product dispatch?
What is it about the internet that you believe makes hatespeech suddenly unimportant?
Does this value of yours also include hatespeech over telephone, or by snailmail?"
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In case you're thick headed, I'll say it plainly.
I have no interest in replying to you. So what, you want to spout profanities all over your post again?
Do yourself a favor and stop talking to me.
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My post contained no profanity. I had only 'spouted profanity' at you in a previous branch of discussion in response to your deliberately misportraying the OP's behavior to your own agenda. Yes it was rash of me, but it was no worse than your choice of words at the time, which were transparently made to bait and demean. Much like what you're doing right now.
But I suppose that's irrelevant now, seeing you clearly have no interest in defending the gaping flaws in your assertions, and would prefer to once again stoop to passive aggression, derision and baiting. I won't trouble you any further with concerns about the disparity between your values and reality.
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'fuck off <insert race here>' is a daily problems in Dota 2, which that poster have played for 2000 hours+. Mine is around 3k+.
While I can't say on behalf of him/her, I can say it's perfectly fine (as in not bitching about it on other places e.g here or other forums). I would just retaliate in game (or if it's on FB, then I'd do it on FB).
Simple.
It's not like I lose anything when being insulted/threatened like that lol.
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Interesting. So you made the effort to check which games they play and from there on you decided they should be used to being told to fuck of by a company when invited to ask for keys.
So, if apple or MS gives out a free software and then refuse to give you one and say "fuck off you indonesian prick" it would be allright?
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And again, another two-faced. You care only about free staff.
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You have a weird logic. I won't bother you any more.
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Huh? It's happening all the time here. I'm not raging at all about it.
Though, the day it happens (your example), it's going to be viral about itself without my intervention since surely they'd do it on other Indonesians as well.
You're taking examples on wrong guy. I've been living with racism for 31 years. Indonesia are full with racism.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve, but not everyone is so thin skinned like you.
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"While I can't say on behalf of him/her, I can say it's perfectly fine (as in not bitching about it on other places e.g here or other forums). I would just retaliate in game (or if it's on FB, then I'd do it on FB)."
I understood this to mean the OP shouldn't be making such a fuss because they should be used to negative comments from Dota.
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I don't know about him/her, I can only guess.
Go add him/her and ask yourself. Don't ask me.
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You misunderstand what "two-faced" means.
If you want people to consider a different opinion, you need to actually give them one to consider. You haven't even done that. You launched straight on the offensive and namecalling.
You're right, straight people do get less consideration when it comes to protection from hatespeech. That sucks. But then again that seems to be due to straight people not having faced the same degrees of institutionalised prejudice in recent times. Note I say "not the same degrees", they face it, just not at the same degree.
Just going to point out that (in America, one of the biggest hotbeds of activism) same-sex couples only just recently got the ability to marry. That's the disparity I'm talking about, and it fuels a lot of harsh sentiments. Straight people certainly do shit on, but that's just it, everyone does. There is no group that is safe from oversights and idiocy in the legal system, much less from people. That is no reason to NOT challenge them whenever we spot them. That is no reason to not inform others, so they can make informed decisions when considering buying from such companies. However this situation isn't about straight people, and you're just vomiting judgement based on a total strawmen. If you want people to empathise with your cause, your opening line shouldn't be to call everyone within earshot a scumbag, especially not if you haven't even asked them what their opinion is. :P
"And pull a load of hate on people, who don't with them."
Uhm, the OP never poured hate on anyone. They were just making people aware so people could make an informed choice in future.
"You don't wanna peace, you don't wanna equality.
All you want it's another war.
Just like all of it two-faced society where we live right now."
Nah, you were the one who ran in here and threw your diaper at the OP.
"Here a sample of it. http://puu.sh/peW73/199eac5784.png"
That's not "hate", that's "repercussion".
You insulted someone for not randomly choosing total silence.
How can you pretend to care about prejudices while also trying to insult people into silence? Do you even realise how much of a massive hypocrite that makes you?
It's only natural that people want to disassociate their giveaways from you, given your attitude problem.
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Ok, i see some mistakes i maybe made.
So, my first massadge maybe too rude (but i still don't like what he's do), i agree with it.
But next. I dont say it's only OP. I say about all other people ("all of you "). They a two-faced who can show care only in internet.
And blacklist it bad exemple too (now i look like two-faced, who see posible danger in future existent on this site.)
And THAT misunderstand make me more angry.
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Wow, I didn't expect this thread to go on this long. Yeah, these guys said some real dumb shit and deserve to be called out on it, but... they're nobodies. They don't influence policies, they don't make laws, they aren't representatives of a larger group, they don't amount to anything and they never will. Nobody should be paying any attention to them beyond am incredulous glance and a prompt decision to ignore anything further. Creating a scandal just gives them a bigger voice to say more stupid shit. The longer you leave the toilet open the more chances they have to poop in it.
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Only if you found a clogged toilet that could never be cleaned, you would hang a sign outside the door saying "Clogged toilet, do not use!" so that people wouldn't end up in a stanky situation. That's all this is, making people aware of an unsavory element. What people choose to do with that basic information is down to the individual.
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Or maybe this is really a Digital Homicide plan to trick us to using their toilet. We look at Dream Games toilet and say that's awful but then think maybe the other toilet isn't as dirty. Then again maybe just maybe Dream Games is just this stupid to do something like this.
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I wasn't really using the toilet metaphor in regards to the entire situation, but if you like it, I can try:
This particular toiled is a broken porta-john located in the middle of a barren desert in central Arizona. Furthermore, the porta-john is buried directly beneath a large collection of much nicer restrooms, most of which are constantly kept in good repair by a competent and friendly cleaning service.
Why should anyone give a shit, no pun intended, about how stinky the porta-john is?
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Maybe that that clogged toilet (Dream Games) might ruin your experience in the next stall over? Example pick a random game from indie developers and usually a lot of them are nice but every so often you might run into a game made by Digital Homicide that really ruins your experience on steam greenlight. But your right for sure that this attention will probably help them since as we all know when people got mad at Digital Homicide people often voted against getting it being released on via steam greenlight and further more many of them troll their groups at every turn yet they still turn out tons of uninstall simulators with cards that have been greenlit.
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It's very possible, but crappy greenlight games in general aren't what this thread is about.
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Yes, there answer to your question is 'there is someone who gives shit, if there's perfectionist in that place'
And only 'if'.
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Because that porta-john isn't actually buried under the other restrooms, it's actually lined up side-by-side with all the other toilets, looking innocent and clean.
Some people are perfectly able to use the stanky clogging-prone toilet without issue, however many have an opposite experience and regret ever going near it. Hanging a sign on the door simply lets people make an informed choice, rather than potentially get a nasty surprise.
Moving on from our weird toilet metaphor (as fun as it was to struggle with, haha), it's a similar premise to people not wanting to buy cosmetics from a company that uses extensive animal testing, or not wanting to buy GM produce. Some people have no issue with it, and that's their business, but for those who do have issue with it, it's a common courtesy to give some pre-warning. That refund period is pretty slim, after all.
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I could continue to juggle the toilet thing with you(and I do disagree with your side-by-side statement somewhat), but I have a suspicion that it would soon end up too distanced from the issue. Maybe it already is.
I'm also fully aware of the non-quality-related reasons people may not wish to buy a product(I'm not sure how we got on that tangent), although I would argue that in this case the quality-related reasons are prominent enough that one need not even consider any others.
Anyway, I'm not talking down awareness, I'm talking down the merit that many people seem to be giving these guys' words and actions, even unconsciously. I normally get ticked off pretty easily, but even I can see these chumps aren't worth the time of day.
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Ah, well I wasn't actually trying to mention the quality of their product, so I suppose that means our toilet metaphor is a bust.
What I meant was that to any other customer, Dream Games look like any other professionally-behaving company. However given they have an unrepentant stance on a hot issue (prejudice), it creates a situation much like the whole no-GM-foods or no-animal-testing deal. It's a bitter point of contention, and it can really sour matters for people. Again, it's just about an informed choice on a matter of sensibilities.
While the money isn't being funneled into some top secret anti-LGBT villain lair, for the current time, it does in a way suggest that their behavior as a commercial entity is condoned, if no small form of boycott or backlash takes place. It may seem petty, but to repeat myself, it was only last year that gay marriage was okayed in America, and they're a hotbed of political progressive movements. Now consider the kind of grief that LGBT folks would be dealing with in countries without such passionate representation. It seems petty on the surface, but people are trying to send a clear message. It's 2016 and human beings in nations with operating internet-capable devices are still playing the vague 'second class citizen' game. I don't see this as something that should be quenched, much less something where the onus should be placed on those reacting in disgust.
If we take the approach of "it doesn't matter that a dev has a stance against supporting LGBT" then it would be a clear double standard if we also didn't also adopt the approach of "it also shouldn't matter that people have a stance against purchasing products from such devs"
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Again, I'm not sure where you are getting "it doesn't matter that a dev has a stance against supporting LGBT" (in relation to potential consumers) from my comments, or the implied "people shouldn't have a stance against purchasing products from such devs". If you aren't drawing these views from my posts, then I apologize for misunderstanding, but then... why even bring them up?
I'm also having difficulty understanding where you are going with the rest of your post. It sounds like you are asserting that a slippery-slope-like situation could arise if there is not significant backlash, which I sincerely doubt (Here I would like to repeat that I am not against raising awareness of the situation). I don't think that any corporations, publishers, or even one-man indie devs are watching these guys with bated breath, waiting for a precedent to allow them to start throwing slurs around. In this industry, the zeitgeist has already left such people behind, and I think most if not all successful companies are fully aware of that.
Look at Operation Caucasus's steam reviews- heck, look at the trailer- It's a borderline scam job cobbled together with Cryengine assets. I'll bet my bottom dollar it won't be leaving early access, at least not in a state much better than its current one. Their game is nothing, they are nothing, and they aren't part of the actual game industry. If they eventually fix up and expand their turd of a game into a tangible product and make it big(or even small), then sure, I'll eat my words in that regard, and maybe we can start worrying about their poor behavior setting a precedent- although I doubt it would even in that case. However, I firmly believe they don't have it in them, just like (forgive me for beating a dead horse) Digital Homicide and all the other incompetent "devs" that manage to claw their way through greenlight by tossing keys around- but that's a different problem entirely.
I'm sorry if I sounded angry there. I've more to say, but I suspect this conversation won't really go anywhere, since each of us seem to be missing the other's points. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about... whatever we're discussing.
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Eh, sorry. That was my mistake for the tangent. There is a recurring sentiment in the thread that the developer should be given protection from observation/repercussion, but it is usually expressed in tandem with the idea the OP should be judged as whiny and over-entitled. I was debating several people at once, after 6am without sleep. I totally messed up and slipped into a tangent that really didn't apply to your points. Sorry, especially if I came of preachier than usual. xP
The overarching point I was trying to make was that people like to make informed choices, and on the off chance that someone buys into Operation Caucasus or any later Dream Games product, it's a situation akin to accidentally supporting a company that uses extensive animal testing or genetically modified stuff. Some people are conscientious of what businesses they support, and often the only way to send a message to such companies is to essentially vote with your wallet.
I share your opinion that Dream Games aren't any realistic threat in any form, and it's incredibly unlikely they will ever get big enough to be a real factor in anything. I was just explaining why people felt the need to signpost the dev with their behavior, should they continue on under their current group name. It's kind of similar to how people signpost devs for bad greenlight or early access practices, it's a "buyer beware" practice, only this one was linked to real-world issues. It's a real factor to some people. I mean, consider total flops like Towns, which came out of early access only when the barely-functional game added sounds (about 10 in total, heh). Even with the warning signs posted everywhere, people still managed to miss the info and bought the game, quickly coming to regret it. Operation Caucasus is a military first person game that had a bunch of visual gloss thanks to the engine it was based in. To anyone unfamiliar with the source, that can be enough to get a sale. Though I suppose now we have the refund system that's not quite so much of a problem, but the political quirks are enough to create a lot of fuss.
To clarify : Your original comment was confused why people are focusing so much on DG and Caucasus. That's a good question given the game isn't available for sale in Steam right now, and the company has taken a beating for their attitude that will be very hard to recover from. So yeah, it's not really the main issue any more. What you're seeing now is sorta like the aftershocks. People are debating among themselves about their disparate opinions, because a lot of ugly attitudes came to the surface when this bomb went off. This discussion isn't really about Dream Games or Caucasus any more, but the sore spot they touched on. Anyone who is late to the drama might still get in a few facepalms about the company though.
What you're seeing now is the internet discussion equivalent to the dust settling.
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Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying, I know how hard it can be to get your thoughts organized, especially if you're tired. (I'm actually rather surprised at my own ability to do so in my last few comments)
I also appreciate your continued civility. Good luck with the rest of the thread, if you're planning on riding it out. :P
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I'm a neurotic forum lurker with sleep procrastination issues, I'll probably be here until it gets locked, haha.
Oh well, I have nobody but myself to blame, right?
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This thread need more gibaways
This thread reminded me of a guy posting on the good old isonews forums, let me quote him:
"I once shot a gay zombie in Doom. I know he was gay, because before I shot him he was rubbing up against another zombie. I also shot the other zombie too because I don't discriminate against different types of zombies. Be they gay, brain eating, flesh eating or even Nazi zombies. They're all targets in my books."
That one killed a thread about gay appreciation (back in the 00's). I hope that will happen here as well. No need to drag this into 2000 replies. Everything has been said.
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I am straight, but i have no reason to hate transexuals etc. Where is point in that i wonder?
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I actually like the response in. http://steamcommunity.com/games/442180/announcements/detail/932622787939644428
Now, don't get me wrong about this and let me explain. I don't support lgbt either, but that by no means says I'm against them either. To put it simply, I'm not taking a stand on any side. Do I think it's wrong to exclude anyone? Of course! But at the same time I'm not going to say "He's gay? hurray! Let's put him on a throne and talk about how great he is!"
I have no issues with gays, trans, etc, etc, but there's a difference in "not pro thing" and "con thing"
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That's actually what people usually mean when they say they 'support' LGBT stuff, though. Supporting LGBT stuff doesn't mean you're into any form of activism (passive or otherwise), it's more saying "I accept these people as part of society" as opposed to "I reject them".
In my experience, it's less about saying "I condone this" and more about "I do not oppose this".
However when someone says they do not support it, the common meaning of this is usually "I oppose this" or "No consideration should be given to these people / this factor". While the 'no extra consideration' thing sounds innocent enough, any leftovers from old laws can cause problems, such as the whole gay marriage issue and the lack of government privileges that went with them.
In the end, it's all just a label. You accept that they exist as citizens and (presumably) that because they are citizens, they deserve the same kind of due considerations everyone else gets, so that's all that really matters. I just hope your uncommon usage of the support / not support label doesn't draw undeserved negativity in your direction, given how heated the subject can get.
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Sometimes it's hard to tell where "support" stands and where "don't care if you are" stands. So I had to explain in a bit more detail
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Yeah, it's tricky, though for me personally, I'd much rather be mistaken as someone who is actively pro-LGBT than someone who is actively against it. That may seem intellectually dishonest, but then again I don't see the problem in being mistaken for someone who is openly cool with whatever/whoever you were born as.
Though I suppose given how bitter some people are, I can appreciate why you would want to stay as neutral as possible. There's no shame in wanting to avoid attracting anger from the anti-crowds, TBH. It sounds dorky but if you referred to yourself as "I-don't-care-either-way-LGBT" or just flatly say "I'm neutral, it's none of my business", people would probably get the hint. It's a bit long-winded but it might save a bunch of pointless politic stuff and potential hassle. If someone tries to get aggressive after hearing that, they're almost guaranteed to not be worth debating anything with.
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Yay, I got onto 3 blacklists yesterday! If anyone else wants to blacklist me for me supporting LGBT, and not understanding what homophobic people are on about, then come on. Feel free to add me ;)
By the way, isn't it kind of interesting and indicative of human nature? I'm not the only one noting in this thread that they got blacklisted for expressing an opinion. Even in as nice a community as SG is, this sort of thing happens. It seems like people are sometimes using WL/BL as a sort of "like/dislike" button.
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Even for more trivial matters people get blacklisted. It only serves as fulfilling each individual's ego for many people.
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It's a way people have of having some kind of petty power over others. Hurr durr, you cannot enter my giveaways. Power trips, basically.
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I don't see it as a power trip in cases like these. When someone is diametrically opposed to some values that you hold dear, especially when they come down to the acceptance of other human beings, I find it understandable that it would be a bitter pill if you found your charity was going to such a person. It's not even always about the beliefs held, but how they're expressed. Even the best causes have people who are overly aggressive and caustic, and most people don't like giving nice things to people who behave badly.
Not to say that people don't invent petty reasons for blacklisting, heh.
People even bait blacklisting deliberately, or make threads with random chores to get whitelisted. Some people can't find a legitimate use for the lists, so they invent games around it. It's a little weird sometimes TBH.
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I was talking more in general, I do agree that in extreme cases a blacklist an be called for. But most of the time people blacklist over the most petty of the reasons. And as you say, the whole dynamics are a bit weird sometimes, with people kneeling to others to get WL'd and stuff, but well, that's how the site goes I guess.
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Oh yeah, definitely. It's actually why youtube stopped using a 5-star rating system and just went for the upvote and downvote. People tend towards weird 'games' with whatever little power they're given.
And then there are things like votekicks in gaming servers. People are... fun. :P
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Got some blacklist as well only a short time after I answered to this thread - I'm gay as well and thinking the same
Who wants can blacklist me for that if he/she wants so I'll never have to get in contact with that person after winning a GA :)
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Well, they look worse than my stats, but they aren't, because you only have 7 blacklists in total. :P So, how many blacklists did you get from this topic? 5?
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Yeah, 5. Of course, it's just the ratio that's looking worse since I'm not a very active member of the community so I didn't really have many Black/Whitelists
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Woohoo, I got another blacklist. :D Don't worry, a blacklist from a bigot is always welcome. xD It would be an insult if a bigot would whitelist me. :P
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I'll try to write something constructive when I get home from work.
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So, this is my opinion more or less. Is there anything wrong with being atracted to wee children, supposing the individual can do nothing to help it? I wouldn't say there is, if their brains are patterned in such a way that they feel sexually attracted towards them, nothing we can say or do will change it.
However, is it bad to act upon small children based on said urges? It is, but it's not bad because there's anything wrong with sex, as it's not bad that two teenagers of broadly the same age engage in intercouse, even if in some cases that's defined as statutory rape (I think it is Califorina where if two minors have sex with one another both are guilty of sexual assaul, which is stupid as fuck), it's wrong because the adult is on a position of power, and the minor is understood to not be capable of making their own decisions towards sex, as in many cases they have either not reached the appropiate age of development, or lack a mental maturity to make based, non-regretable decisions . That's why preyign on minors is bad.
One can argue that in many cases adults are not even able to make an informed decision when it comes to sex, either. But adults are understood as responsible of their own choices and acts (unless some conditions are present) So that's the difference.
To sum up I do agree that one cannot choose their sexual orientation, being that whichever it is, however, in certain cases, such as those that do not involve consenting adults as all their parts, they can't, and they should not, be acted upon.
Edit: Welp, I did not read the conversation and I feel like I just went over the same points.
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It's just a volatile place for a discussion like that, but sorry if I was too harsh. You might be interested in reading Kinsey's reports on sexuality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports
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Your comparison is very surface. Is the same as if question because sex between people is not crime but rape is? there is a gap between them greater than the Grand Canyon, which is called consent. adults, regardless of sexuality, can consent with sex or not. children never can because neither has maturity to understand in fact what is having sex. therefore, every time someone involved in sexual act, whether child, ie an adult that is with awareness changed (under drug effects or unconscious) or simply do not want to have sex, it becomes crime compel the same to do sex. if someone has difficulty to understand about consent, this video explains so well simples https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
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Please view the comment chain leading up to this comment: https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/PEHoaMh
I think if you read through these, you'll understand my intentions.
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what a useless "developer".
thanks for the thread, needed more trash for my blacklist.
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oh boi, what a ride..
btw. that feel when people think their opinion matters :3
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Wow, I think the game was removed from Steam! Lmfao!!!
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Hi everyone, I always participate in sweepstakes of games that the own developers offers, as many of you.
This week the publishing Dream Games distributes keys to the game Operation Caucasus pre-released on May 23 this year.
The scheme was to go to their facebook page and ask for a key, that's what I did ...
The answer was negative, because I use the colors of the rainbow on my profile picture and they said they did not support LGBT and "kindly" asked me to go f*ck myself. Then they blocked me, preventing me from posting the print on their facebook page.
Follows the print: http://imgur.com/tru0YgE
Anyone who wants to help, can mark as a useful analysis to stay on top.
Link the publishing page on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?developer=Dream%20Games
Link of the game on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/app/442180
I had already warned that in the post on the given keys https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/JMwgGKR but with a own topic, the message reaches more people
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