Capitalization is a waste of time
I actually hoped that SG would lack gender, politics and religious topics.
Not because I think they are irrelevant but because they usually group a whole lot of different people in a same group which leads to feeling it like a personal attack even if you don't do it.
A good example is my own.
I just came from work, read this and even tho I honestly never cat called nor even whistled after a woman (it's really not popular here where I live, we usually just take a good look and then say to ourselves that's a fine woman or smth among those lines) but it felt like a generalized attack to me because it linked to my experience.
When I say my experience I mean the bitch shield attitude woman have started to use quite a lot recently (and I do understand why), with which I never actually had any problems, until I started to work in the service sector.
Now everyday at least 3 or 4 times when I greet a person who is a female that passes by the store front or is looking what the store is about tells me they are taken or have a boyfriend or make a face like I just took my d*ck out just because I sad hello or good day.
What's worse this happens in front of other people who then give me a weird look and there is that moment of awkward silence where you have to say something or just prolong the silence.
Which then leads to you being mean with comebacks when actually you just want someone to honestly have a good day and feel welcomed at the store :(
It felt even worse when I swapped places with a colleague who has gentler face features, or to say he's softer on the eyes and he got no comments but would actually get molested making me have to come over and "save him",
I'm pretty confident with myself and about my looks but experiencing this on daily base makes me feel like shit and ugly even tho I never had problem having a girl in the last 10 years. So when I just came from work and read your topic it kinda felt like one of those girls wrote that and it felt like being cynical leading me to write an attack on you and your topic. Good thing I took a breath and cleared my mind :D
I only shared my story because I noticed you asked why are people attacking you so I wanted to showcase you on my own example how a call to positive change that groups an insanely large group of people on a diverse forum can have a negative connection when viewed from the individuals perspective AND actually do more damage than good :(
This is the reason why I hoped that these kind of call outs wouldn't reach SG, I'm alright with discussions but this isn't one.
If you started in a way like: "I'm recently having a lot of problems with catcalling so I'd like to hear your comments and opinion since it makes me feel like...." instead of going: "Because I'm tired I'd ask of all men to stop catcalling woman on the street cause you will probably get pepper sprayed", and yes I think a lot of men memorized it like this.
Why?
Because you didn't really take the time to describe how it makes you feel or at least haven't done it really well so that people who read your post emotionally connect with you. When someone reads your post without your other comments it seems like you are saying that there are us who do it or that at least we have friends who do it and then it seems like you are bragging on how much you get catcalled (again because you focused on how many times it happens to you instead how it impacts you). Then we come to the FAQ thread which should act to mellow the illusion of attack on us (by US i mean men of the community) but NO, you take the high rode again.
You limit which gender can say their experience even tho it's a common problem which you actually admit in a line before.
While I'm well aware that you are probably a nice and warm person who really cares about people and this mentioned problem has a great impact on your life you can't blame people for attacking you because you didn't take enough time to properly put your emotions and thoughts on "paper".
I'm convinced that if we had a group talk and were able to see your body language and hear your tone of voice you would get an entirely different level of support but sadly we can't do that when writing, that's why we have to carefully think about what we write and how we present certain aspects of the topics to others. This of course gets even harder when you are writing to a global audience which is from all sorts of different backgrounds and traditions.
I hope I helped you and other people understand why you get a backlash with these kinds of topic more often than not <3
P.S. I'm really sorry about all the ands, it's late and I just finished the night shift. I hope you won't take it to heart so much (for gramma nazis)
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I think they proved over and over that they have no interest in an intellectual discussion nor proper writing.
They merely want to get validation and feel special without changing the view or opinion on the topic.
But it's usually like this in the world, most of the population are lazy, uninterested and irresponsible people who merely seek social validation from strangers in order to feel special :D
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That was an interesting/surprising read. I genuinely had not considered that people had such a combination of thoughts and beliefs. You seem to (correctly) envision yourself as a considerate person, so I'm sorry to hear that you have felt ostracized for what you believe are innocuous statements. I think your advice probably would have made the OP slightly more well received. I didn't take the OP as a personal attack and I think a bit of empathy will help you to not feel that way as well. In the same fashion, empathy will allow you to not feel so bad when people seem to appear upset when you greet them at your store. If you're wondering how you can develop empathy for the women that appear to agree with OP, then I suggest reading through this thread and/or talking to the women in your life about how it feels for them to be sexually harassed.
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I do have empathy but I don't always have the patience too go the extra mile for every person that isn't able to show the minimal level of human respect and politeness.
My goal with the post was to merely showcase OP that there might be more to it behind the attacks on her than just simple rage.
Honestly I don't want to read anymore of this thread nor do I approve of these kinds of threads, just like I wrote at the start of my post.
These kinds of topics are better suited to be discussed in person or in a way where you can see the body language of the other person, cause like we can see in multiple posts of this thread quite a bit of people don't have the aptitude nor the will to write properly and transfer their ideas with their feelings into text, let alone to take their time to read anything that is longer than 2 sentences.
Biggest problem with this kind of train thought, as we can see in the example of the #metoo campaign right now is that now everyone was raped, harassed etc., which puts legit victims at a disadvantage because people are using a honest and great campaign to resurrect their careers.
We recently had a talk show in my own country dealing with the problem of sexual harassment and one of our most famous female singers put it rather nicely:
"My dear girls if someone invites you to their hotel room or to their house with just two of you and he's in higher position, what exactly are you expecting? That you are going to read Shakespeare? Let's not kid ourselves.
There will always be immoral offers from both genders and it's up to you if you are going to take the offer, go the easy way or reject it and do things the hard way where everything will be up to you and your skill."
Only part of your reply that I don't entirely understand is:
"you have felt ostracized for what you believe are innocuous statements"
What do you mean by "what you believe are innocuous statements"?
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"...what you believe are innocuous statements," approximately means, "you thought what you were saying was inoffensive," which is why it was so upsetting and surprising when people appeared to be offended by what you said.
I say empathy is helpful, because empathy generates patience. Your examples of women being rude to you are: βthe bitch shield attitude,β or β,tells me they are taken or have a boyfriend or make a face like I just took my d*ck out just because I sad hello or good day.β Many people would probably be upset in your situation and for the same reasons they upset you, but empathy allows one to more quickly heal emotional injuries by seeing that itβs not important to take something personally when the problem belongs to someone else. In this way empathy can allow you to be forgiving and be more patient the next time something similar happens.
I also say empathy is helpful, because it can stop victim blaming. You and one of your countryβs most famous female singers appear to be blaming rape victims and identifying with rapists. There are numerous reasons why it usually takes less empathy and energy to identify with attackers than with victims. There are also numerous reasons why victim blaming is bad for society, but itβs also bad for your wellbeing. Youβve placed yourself into a contradiction: you blame women for being raped, because they are not being more aloof and suspicious around men, but you also blame women for hurting your feelings by being too aloof and suspicious around you. You canβt have it both ways. It is one, the other, or neither. Empathy is a good way to help yourself out of this contradiction and find more peace.
It starts with trying to honestly imagine what it is like to be another person. I work in a field where I see children and women who have been raped virtually every single day. Virtually every adult woman has been raped/"seriously" sexually assaulted or knows someone close to them who has. In general, men are more physically and economically powerful than women. Imagine being in that situation You would need to carefully balance keeping yourself safe around men with keeping yourself from looking like a bitch (because youβre not a mean person and because men are powerful and can hurt you if they get mad). However, you would make mistakes. You would let your guard down at times and trust a man who has always treated you well only to have him sexually assault you when you made yourself vulnerable. You would also push away safe men because you were too afraid to make yourself vulnerable.
If youβre being friendly and not creepy and some woman gets upset about it, then thatβs not your problem β itβs theirs. With empathy you can see that, let it go, and move on with life.
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I honestly have no clue how saying:
"Good day, can I help you?"
or
"May I be of assistance to you?",
while having a smile on your face can be considered offensive?
"empathy allows one to more quickly heal emotional injuries by seeing that itβs not important to take something personally when the problem belongs to someone else" so do the women in this thread lack empathy?
After all those men don't know better, maybe they were never raised properly nor had a decent male role model who would show them the right way of being a gentleman. Can we really blame them if they are doing the thing that they've seen other people do around them and were thought for 20+ years that there is nothing wrong with that sorts of behavior?
And in the end why should the women take something so personally when the problem belongs to someone else?
It is not their manners that are in the wrong but the manners of some random stranger in the street, whom they might never see again after that day.
Next thing, how did you get that me and the singer identify with the rapists?
If a stranger invites you to their home, will you accept?
Would you accept it the same way if it was a mansion in the Hollywood hills or a rundown shack in the nearby forest?
If you have decent logical thinking you'll understand that there is a possible danger to your safety and you should of course in that case pass on the opportunity no matter how appealing it might be.
Please don't get me wrong I'm not excusing the rapist or the sexual harasser of their crime, I'm saying that an adult person should be able to recognize a potential danger to their own safety and take the necessary precaution in order to avoid the said danger or at least minimize it as much as they can.
I intentionally used your logic against you in a mean way, and I apologies for that, because I wanted to show you that if you follow the path of infinite empathy you really can't hold any human being responsible for their actions because you can always find a direct line of external influences which affected and shaped them (by them I mean their world views, their behavior and their core values) at a time when they weren't fully developed (be it physically or mentally) which in turn set them on a path that isn't that easy to correct or redeem.
That's why we have a great lil thing called RESPONSIBILITY, cause as intelligent and logically capable beings we SHOULD be able to become aware of the external influences and their correlations with our behavior and we SHOULD objectively decide on our course of action and/or behavior by using discipline and educated decision making that adheres to the laws and rules of the society we live in.
Simplifying the upper statements with an example:
Most bullies have been bullied in their life before and find it normal to do so on to others. (I won't complicate it by going into the psychology of bullying or child abuse otherwise it's going to turn into an 50 page essay).
Most people today are aware of this information and the statistics behind it so we have the empathy to understand that it's not entirely their fault for their behavior, this is why we don't beat the living shit out of them nor do we burn them at the stake.
But we also understand that they should be aware of their behavior, how it affects those around them and the damage it causes.
This is why we hold them responsible in front of law and society for the damage they do and cause.
Main reason being that we think they have enough mental capacity and maturity to differentiate between good and bad which in turn would entice them to change their behavior, because they should also have empathy towards others.
That was an example why infinite empathy doesn't work and shouldn't actually exist.
Next I'm gonna try to explain you equal responsibility for your actions.
Let's say you go on a camping trip and in the evening you and your friends want to grill some meat or just get cosy around the fire.
All of you know how to start a fire and the necessary things that your parents told you to keep the fire in check.
But you are tired and cold so you skip a few steps thinking: "Nothing bad is going to happen."
Well something bad does happen and one of the tinder flies in to the nearest bush starting a blaze which later on escalates into a forest fire.
Now did you and your friends want to start a forest fire? No, you just wanted to spend some time together while being warm.
Is the government or the forest marshal going to let you off the hook and excuse you cause you had only good intentions? Nope :(
You still hold RESPONSIBILITY for taking the actions that led to the unfortunate events.
It wasn't you who threw the tinder, it was the wind!
A mere stroke of bad luck for you that it landed in a dry bush instead of the sand or earth that surrounds your camp entirely.
You could even call it an intervention of a higher power that was beyond your control.
So why are you facing several charges and quite a bit of $$$ in damages?
Because as a intelligent and logically capable being you should have been aware of that dangerous possibility and should have taken all the necessary steps that your seniors told you about and have taught you to do. But you didn't, now you face jail time and quite an empty wallet for the next several decades, why?
Because you thought "ahh nothing bad is gonna happen" or "it won't happen to us" or "well how high are the chances of that actually happening?".
I hope you now understand my way of thinking, I don't excuse the perpetrators of their crime nor do I approve of his/her actions.
I'm saying that in certain crimes, be it rape, harassment, robbery and so on the victim shares a certain amount of responsibility for getting him/herself in that situation because they didn't take the necessary steps of precaution nor safety, which they were fully aware of at that given time and quite capable of doing at that said time.
Each and every of our actions carries weight and our decisions carry certain consequences, be they good or bad for us we still hold the responsibility first and foremost towards ourselves and then towards the people which get affected by them. And NO in my opinion if you are of certain age and are a mentally healthy person you can't be excused for blindly convincing yourself to walk into a trap and endanger your own safety, one way or the other.
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I honestly have no clue how saying:"Good day, can I help you?"or"May I be of assistance to you?",while having a smile on your face can be considered offensive?
I can imagine many reasons why it might be off-putting for some people. However, Iβm not one of them, because what you describe sounds ok to me. Everyone is different.
"empathy allows one to more quickly heal emotional injuries by seeing that itβs not important to take something personally when the problem belongs to someone else" so do the women in this thread lack empathy?
You seem to be saying that if A implies B, then B implies A. It does not; that is a logical fallacy. That being said, I suspect this thread and the world at large would benefit from more empathy.
After all those men don't know better, maybe they were never raised properly nor had a decent male role model who would show them the right way of being a gentleman. Can we really blame them if they are doing the thing that they've seen other people do around them and were thought for 20+ years that there is nothing wrong with that sorts of behavior?
I think thatβs an excellent use of empathy to imagine why people might engage in catcalling and it is also one of the stated reasons for the creation of this thread - awareness.
And in the end why should the women take something so personally when the problem belongs to someone else?
Other peopleβs problems can quickly become yours when they have power over you. Context is important. When you're in prison and a man twice your size says "you look good", then it's not "oversensitivity" to view this as a threat, that's a reasonable application of survival instinct. If a tiny old woman says, "you look good" in the supermarket, then it could be weird, funny, and gross, but it's not really threatening.
Next thing, how did you get that me and the singer identify with the rapists? If a stranger invites you to their home, will you accept?
Would you accept it the same way if it was a mansion in the Hollywood hills or a rundown shack in the nearby forest?
You said, βIf someone invites you to their hotel room or to their house with just two of you and he's in higher position, what exactly are you expecting?β This implies that any woman who visits the home or hotel of a man in a position of authority, then she will get raped and therefore she is to blame for accepting such an offer with such an definitive outcome. This opinion of yourβs is confirmed, when you compare the victims of rape, harassment, and robbery with actual criminals at fault for crimes. To answer your other question, yes, I have accepted home invitations from people I never met. The context of those invitations informed my choice. And yes, I would be more interested to visit a strangerβs mansion than a strangerβs rundown shack.
If you have decent logical thinking you'll understand that there is a possible danger to your safety and you should of course in that case pass on the opportunity no matter how appealing it might be. Please don't get me wrong I'm not excusing the rapist or the sexual harasser of their crime, I'm saying that an adult person should be able to recognize a potential danger to their own safety and take the necessary precaution in order to avoid the said danger or at least minimize it as much as they can.
Makes sense to me, but later you say that victims of violent crimes should be and/or deserve punishment. Iβm also starting to wonder if you think about how we all have our different life experiences, types of awareness, and threat thresholds that factor into the final risk vs benefit analysis. Something that appears to be a reasonable risk to you may appear unacceptably risky to me and vice versa.
I intentionally used your logic against you in a mean way, and I apologies for that, because I wanted to show you that if you follow the path of infinite empathy you really can't hold any human being responsible for their actions because you can always find a direct line of external influences which affected and shaped them (by them I mean their world views, their behavior and their core values) at a time when they weren't fully developed (be it physically or mentally) which in turn set them on a path that isn't that easy to correct or redeem.
Itβs nice of you to take my feelings into consideration, but I didnβt think you were mean. You've been polite to me this whole time. We must be held all responsible for our actions. Empathy is a tool to understand the world and ourselves, how we choose to act on that knowledge is a very different matter, even with βinfinite empathyβ (Iβm not sure what βinfinite empathyβ means to you). If Iβm not being clear, hereβs an extreme example: With empathy we can try to imagine how the thoughts and emotions of someone like Joseph Stalin might have guided him to kill millions of people, but we can also still hold someone like him responsible for doing it. In fact, empathy is one of the reasons we would hold a mass murderer responsible for their crimes, because we can use empathy to try to understand the incredible pain and suffering they caused for their victims.
Most bullies have been bullied in their life before and find it normal to do so on to others. (I won't complicate it by going into the psychology of bullying or child abuse otherwise it's going to turn into an 50 page essay). Most people today are aware of this information and the statistics behind it so we have the empathy to understand that it's not entirely their fault for their behavior, this is why we don't beat the living shit out of them nor do we burn them at the stake. But we also understand that they should be aware of their behavior, how it affects those around them and the damage it causes. This is why we hold them responsible in front of law and society for the damage they do and cause. Main reason being that we think they have enough mental capacity and maturity to differentiate between good and bad which in turn would entice them to change their behavior, because they should also have empathy towards others.
That was an example why infinite empathy doesn't work and shouldn't actually exist.
I think that was an excellent example of how empathy is useful, why it works so well, and why we should continue to use it. You used it to understand the internal workings of a bully and why they should be punished. Iβm starting to suspect that we are not using the same definition of empathy or perhaps the term βinfinite empathyβ holds some special meaning to you. Hereβs how Wikipedia defines empathy: "the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within the other person's frame of reference."
Is the government or the forest marshal going to let you off the hook and excuse you cause you had only good intentions? Nope :(
Actually, in any predominantly English speaking country, the charges would be reduced, because the fire was not set intentionally. Intentionally setting a harmful fire is a different crime that even has a different name; it is called arson and it carries a much greater penalty than accidentally started fires. People use empathy to infer the intentionality of criminals and to understand the devastation of victims.
I'm saying that in certain crimes, be it rape, harassment, robbery and so on the victim shares a certain amount of responsibility for getting him/herself in that situation because they didn't take the necessary steps of precaution nor safety, which they were fully aware of at that given time and quite capable of doing at that said time.
You are comparing the victims of rape, robbery, and harassment with the criminals who start a forest fire to explain something. This is not a good argument by analogy, because it is not a good analogy. Rape, harassment, and robbery are interpersonal crimes. In your example, you said the agent which acts between the people lighting the fire and the eventual crime is βthe windβ or the βintervention of a higher powerβ. In violent crimes, the agent that acts to turn these events into crimes is a person who must be held responsible for their behavior, not an unstoppable force of nature that is incapable of being held responsible. In your example, the criminals are punished by the βgovernment or the forest marshalβ. The agent that βpunishesβ a murder victim for being stupid enough to get murdered is a murderer. Yet, fire marshals and murderers do not have the moral equivalence you give them in your analogy, because you have reversed the role of victim and criminal. That is the essence of victim blaming. Imagine if your wacky analogy was correct, then what is your policy proposal? Only the strong deserve to survive, so we tolerate violent crimes, because victims are stupid and deserve it? Or, do we still punish violent crimes, but we kind of tolerate them and reduce the severity of the punishment based on how stupid the victim is? I wrote way too much and then I messed up the forum markup, so I went back and change it all. That was too much of a hassle.
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I don't think you are aware of your own logical fallacy that you are using against me.
The moral of my forest fire story example wasn't punishment but RESPONSIBILITY.
I never advocated punishment for the victims of any crime, but it's my mistake for not coming up with a better and more clearer example and for focusing on the penalties in the story instead of responsibility.
You still hold responsibility towards yourself for ignoring the obvious danger signs and continuing on.
And while I do agree that not all people judge risk the same there are some general rules that your parents teach you when you are a child or you at least hear them from others.
By infinite empathy I mean that once you start feeling for the offender and try to understand how and why they did it you are unable to bring an objective judgment anymore and, at least here in my country, this is how people with severe offenses get their sentences reduced by quite a lot. Empathy is the main weapon in Social Engineering, it's a double edged sword when it comes to government and legal systems.
"βIf someone invites you to their hotel room or to their house with just two of you and he's in higher position, what exactly are you expecting?β This implies that any woman who visits the home or hotel of a man in a position of authority, then she will get raped and therefore she is to blame for accepting such an offer with such an definitive outcome."
No I'm not, you are using logical fallacy here.
I'm saying that the situation should at least feel suspicious to you.
Why not ask him if you can bring a friend over?
Ask why not a lovely bar downstairs at the hotel lobby or something like that?
Ask the questions to see what kind of motives the person has behind their invitation.
Don't just blindly go into the invitation.
While I don't advocate for only the strong will survive, sometimes I think the world would be a better place if we removed all the warning signs :/
Unrelated to the topic, I'm really glad to have such a discussion with you.
It's rather rare to hold such a civilized and well worded conversation with a person, especially on the internet.
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Inferring what you mean when what you say is not expressed clearly is not a logical fallacy. It is a communication failure. I can't read your mind when your words don't mean what you want. I suspect some of this is a language barrier. I appreciate that you are speaking to me in my native language rather vice versa, otherwise I couldn't even begin to guess what you meant. What is your native language?
Let's assume that human processes and internal states, such as empathy, are as finite as the humans generating them. "Infinite empathy" therefore is unlikely to be a "thing". Also, what you are describing is "identification with the aggressor", which is not "empathy" per se. It does use empathy, just like "identification with the victim" or "guilt" or "remorse" or "consideration of others" or "being respectful".
You described the fire-starters accepting responsibility for their crimes through acceptance of their punishment. You described no other ways in which these people could accept responsibility for what they had done. You also said women should expect bad things to happen when they are alone with men. Yes, those were bad examples, but you haven't come up better examples to explain what you mean. So, let's just ignore those and focus on your claims:
Interpersonal crimes (e.g. murder, rape, theft, harassment, etc) are bad. Victims of interpersonal crimes are responsible for the crimes committed against them. People must accept responsibility for the bad things they do. Victims of interpersonal crimes must accept responsibility for the crimes committed against them.
How do you propose that victims accept responsibility for the crimes committed against them?
A) We tolerate/decriminalize interpersonal crimes, because victims deserve it? Maybe we even make laws to punish the victims more?
B) We reduce the severity of the punishment for interpersonal crimes based on how stupid we think the victim is, because criminals are smart and just took advantage of a nice opportunity?
C) We just shame the victims and tell them it's their fault and hopefully victims will stop reporting crimes and then we don't have to deal with difficult problems anymore? You might be in luck though, because we are already doing this.
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I'm not sure if you are trolling me, cause "You also said women should expect bad things to happen when they are alone with men."
I said that if you go with a stranger (gender being non important) you are possibly risking your safety.
Use common sense to keep your safety and likely hood of survival as high as possible. This should almost be a natural instinct.
"We tolerate/decriminalize interpersonal crimes, because victims deserve it? Maybe we even make laws to punish the victims more?"
What kind of a question is that?
It's almost like you don't want to understand what I'm saying.
Keep to common sense in order to guarantee your own safety.
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Nah. Not trolling. You said, "My dear girls if someone invites you to their hotel room or to their house with just two of you and he's in higher position, what exactly are you expecting?β This seems fairly straightforward, but perhaps I misunderstood. You specified the genders, being alone, power asymmetry, expecting bad things. So, "girls" & "he" = gender. "just the two of you" = being alone. "what exactly are you expecting" = rhetorical question stating they "should expect bad things".
A) We tolerate/decriminalize interpersonal crimes, because victims deserve it? Maybe we even make laws to punish the victims more?
This is a rhetorical question. It is 1 of 3 (A, B, or C) policy positions (in the form of rhetorical questions) that I provided to solve the policy implications of your stance. Feel free to ignore those 3 solutions and supply your own solution. Again the question is: "How do you propose that victims accept responsibility for the crimes committed against them?"
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First that's what the actress said from her own experience. (gender roles are like that since shes a female and men invited her)
FYI she refused quite a lot of those invitations.
I never advocated criminal punishment nor court/justice punishment for the victims.
Through all my posts I advocate the most important responsibility which is higher than that of the justice system.
You have responsibility to keep yourself safe, and that responsibility is higher than the legal one cause it's based on common sense and it should prevent the criminal act before it happens while the justice system only works after the crime has happened.
I hate the victim mentality, stand up and fight and YES I can say this.
I survived during the war and after it, I survived drug pins clashing in my neighborhood when I was 8 to 9 years old.
I survived fights where 10 people would attack you just because you are from another neighborhood.
I even survived nastier things of which I don't want to speak since they are intimate and my profile here is public.
Wanna know how?
I CHOOSE not to be a bloody bitchy victim, I saw that life isn't fair and you can't expect it to change based on your little ideas and words alone.
So I worked on the one thing I had and still have control over which is myself.
I trained martial arts, went through self defense courses, read and learned about human psychology and biology while working on several jobs when I wasn't even 14 years old.
What are the results?
I have a dream job with a nice pay now, I'm opening my own company next year in the USA.
I'm happy with where I am and where I'm heading.
All on my own I did this, was it hard?
Fuck yes, even more than you can imagine but I decided to define myself instead of the experiences and awful people who surrounded me.
So all this whining and crying for me is merely laziness and irresponsible behavior of people who wan't to change the world but don't want to change themselves.
Change starts with you and with it you inspire others to change likewise!
I apologize for the seeming aggressiveness of my post :)
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You will notice that one of the options I offered involves no changes in the law is is already what we are doing here:
C) We just shame the victims and tell them it's their fault and hopefully victims will stop reporting crimes and then we don't have to deal with difficult problems anymore? You might be in luck though, because we are already doing this.
Also, no worries. What you said makes sense and I better understand your earlier statements. It's personal for you. You chose to do something hard and you are proud of it. After difficult things happened to you, it makes you feel strong to believe that you can control what happens in your life. If you are strong and work hard, then good things will happen. Does it mean if bad things happen to people, then they are probably weak and didn't work hard? Victims look weak. You would never identify with a victim, because then you would be weak too. Therefore, you can't forgive people for being victims, because it seems like they stopped living once they were victimized and now they refuse to fight and do the hard work necessary to prevent bad things from happening to them again (like you did). This is your method of self esteem maintenance.
I'd ask you to consider, as you said, that life is not fair, because fairness is a human concept and the universe does not care about humans or what we want. So, bad things continue to happen to good people over and over again and good things continue to happen to bad people over and over again. There will never be justice in this world unless we choose to make it, because life is not fair. I still think it is good to try to make things like justice and fairness even if the universe doesn't care about it.
I'd also ask you to consider that being a victim does not mean being "bloody bitchy"; it means something bad happened to someone. Maybe someone can be a victim AND strong. People can become stronger because they were victims and strong people can be become victims when bad things happen for no reason. When you feel bad because women dismiss your friendly greetings, they may be acting "strong" and "tough". Maybe a bad thing happened to them in the past when they stopped for a friendly man and now they are standing up for themselves by using social self defense. Or maybe, like the author of this thread, something bad happened to them and they used physical self defense, like you, so that they won't be a victim again.
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As Stephen Fry puts it, self pity is the most grotesque of all emotions, and that when one rids oneself of it, another's empathy is far more achievable.
It seems to me that you mostly agree with one another up until a point. Criminals must be punished and (potential) victims must take responsibility for themselves. Wilful ignorance is never the cause as some might want to argue, but it can sometimes be a contributing factor.
If I walk down the street with a bundle of cash in hand, I'm well within my rights, but I am exposing myself to more danger in doing so. If I am mugged, of course I'm not the one committing the crime, nor am I strictly at fault for the actions of a criminal, but I am and always was responsible for my own basic security - and many would point out that it was thoughtless of me to flaunt my wealth in public.
Certainly you're more likely to be targeted if you've displayed some form of wealth, but it's also the case that sometimes you're targeted regardless - you end up in the wrong place at the wrong time; smacked with a bat even if all you have on you is a single coin of currency (true story).
However, what I'm seeing recently with regards to "victims vs perpetrators", is that once someone has been a victim, they ARE a victim forevermore, which is perpetual self pity and arguably unhealthy. Perhaps more worryingly is that the term "victim" has seen some concept creep in recently times too (same as the term violence, coincidentally). This is deadly. People start using it as an ideological tool so that actual, horrifying victimisation becomes more easily dismissed by people that take issue with the ideology itself.
Let's be glad that for decades in the developed world (with a couple of exceptions due to mass immigration from less developed countries - please don't shoot me), violent crime - including sexual assault - has been decreasing dramatically. I hope that one day, this trend helps us regain more public sociability in urban areas.
So until we achieve Star Trek levels of utopia, stay safe and take responsibility for yourself; let's target actual criminals and the causes of criminality.
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Thank you for summarizing everything.
I have to admit I kinda lost patience because to me it seemed that they read what I write but then interpret it the way that they see fit or that they are accustomed to.
You have to help yourself in order for others to help you.
Pitying someone and letting them have an easy ride just because something bad happened will only help short term, for long term solution they have to help themselves and do as much as they can to improve their shortcomings.
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I hate the victim mentality
And I hate the victim blaming mentality. Step outside of yourself for a moment and consider the experience of others. It's great that you've persevered for yourself, but that doesn't excuse your lack of empathy.
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Lil troll I have empathy for people who went through hard times and got taught valuable life lessons after which they improved on their life and personal skills.
But in my heart you'll find only ice and cold wind for people who experience bad things in their life and continue to repeat them a dozen times over and over without moving an inch from that place in their lives.
I have no time in my life to listen to people who want to feel special and different from others while merely draining you of your own resources to further their own lifestyle because the world isn't like their mom and dad told them when they were 5 years old.
If you carefully read what I wrote you would have understood that I never blamed the victim in a way to excuse the perpetrator from the criminal/violent act, I merely hold them responsible for their own basic security.
Deide explained it very well in a TL;DR manner so now you can go back to your troll cave doctorofjournalism.
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Wow, thatβs a lot of assumptions to form from my one comment. But hey, you clearly wanted to yell at someone, so i hope you feel better.
Perhaps another time we can have actual discourse without immediately resorting to shallow insults.
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My attitude depends on who you are and how you approach the subject.
Short conflict causing responses with nothing substantial to say but uses the opportunity to merely showcase your own anger and repeat what someone else already said in a clearly intellectual and thoughtful way.
So maybe next time put a little more effort by actually contributing to the discussion and you might be surprised how you'll
receive a different approach.
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To replace my previous GA
[Meltdown](https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaway/BlzBa/meltdown) | LastM | November 26thComment has been collapsed.
What it feels like to be belittled and demeaned by some guy on SG after I offer support to the OP by giving her a piece of my dead mother's advice to "keep her chin up" where he made it into a sexual innuendo about giving a guy head....
Yeah, it feels crappy when some guy turns everything I say into some sexual innuendo or kinky thing he wants "me" to do to him. Hey, go hire someone for that - at least she will have gotten paid.
Do all of you think this shit is cool and fine and oh happy day!
What it feels like when a bunch of huge guys on a construction site start calling out "Ohhh baby, you look sooo fine, come over here and gimme a kiss!" (there's a open gate with a privacy fence around the construction and absolutely no one else on the street... are they gonna grab me inside?). Yeah, I am freaking scared out of my brains that I am about to be gang raped.
Seriously? WTF is wrong with you guys posting about feelings? Can't you even see how if freaks women out to be treated like a piece of effing meat? We have to tell you how it makes us feel before you get it?
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what can you expect from a troll that uses sg like that...
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This is why I think this article I posted earlier in the thread here is so important.
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- we have to tell you how it makes us feel before you get it?
unfortunately, some people just won't get it, no matter how much you try to explain.
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It's shitty analogy, but only one that is somehow similar and can put men in women position.
When decent, nice, good-looking, low-aggression man would be put into jail with really bad criminals. We know what some of those people do "for fun". So fear women experience every day when someone catcalls them, go after them or met them in dark alley when they go back to home would be similar to this poor guy that doesn't want to go to shower as he's feared of being raped.
Sure not all fellow prisoners are rapists, but it's enough that few of them are to make others live in fear.
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I prefer the analogy that those same guys who think catcalling is a compliment get totally offended if a gay man approaches them
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Well it's slightly different as he may say "ewww get away from here you fag" or something and his friends will start to laugh. So in fact he won't be affected. He may feel weird for few seconds, but he won't feel fear that women experience when they are catcalled or followed around.
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I've read through most of this thread - it's quite fascinating - and that was one of the grossest parts. You seem so reasonable and considerate (i.e. a worthwhile person) and that guy was clearly a piece of garbage, so it makes me sad that it affected you so. I hope you've a wonderful week since and not had to deal with any more terrible people.
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Hey Mikey,
I wasn't that upset as I've experienced worse than this little, stupid troll. It's the truly smart ones that can make you feel like you did something wrong even when you know that they are twisting your words around just to see how badly they can hurt you... that or the ones at work that have gotten away with this kind of crap for forever but never been fired...
However, thank you for the kind words :-)
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Thanks for this thread. It's an interesting read.
(And yes, I'm also counting the comments as an interesting read, both the positive and negative. Didn't expect quite such extreme responses.)
Disclaimer, none of this post is meant to somehow belittle the issue at hand in any way, merely a non-sarcastic thanks. Figured I'd add this disclaimer just in case since I'm not 'actively taking a side' in this thread. And yes I do believe people need to be treated with respect and things need to change.
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And yes I do believe people need to be treated with respect and things need to change.
that's all this thread is about, you have taken a side just by saying it πβ€οΈοΈ
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u are a real sad person, turn something positive the person says and tell them they said it wrong, and 'all men are the problem'!
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u were like: this thread is not about "people" but about "women". like he said something positive
and the 'all men' thing, how should i get other guys to stop catcalling when i dont hang around people like that, and it never happens when im with a girl, only when shes alone, so i cant help it
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No one, but that's all defensive males hear when someone says "feminism."
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"Overall attitude"
Are you purposely being ironic?
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You didnβt ask a question. Your comment was quite clearly rhetorical.
Anyway, since you seemed to miss itβ saying βoverall attitudeβ or βevery feminist articleβ is generalizing.
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I havenβt noticed that at all
What I have noticed is how quickly some guys get defensive, as if theyβve personally been attacked. Or how some guys try to explain away inappropriate behavior as an attack on men.
It seems that the worst offenders have a persecution complex
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Not "all" men are the problem... why are you turning a very specific kind of behavior by "some" men into a general attack on "all" men? Clearly not every guy cat-calls women on the street. But I think you just want to turn it into a generality so you can denigrate the OP.
Men are not the problem - it's guys like you that can't see past their own noses and decide to perceive any criticism that is specifically about a specific male behavior (in this case, men that cat-call women on the street) as something pertaining to "all men are bad:".
Can you just get off the general soap box and maybe TRY to see the OP's point in the light it was intended. Or are you just being another troll for the p-patrol? sigh :-(
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Why not? I responded to your "stupid" accusations... :-p
Once again, it's a case of, "what's good for the goose is NOT good for the gander". Yeah....and they wonder why we complain?
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And your "discussion material" is so cogent? But the thing is that I don't despise uneducated people that can only base their opinions on generalities and completely fail to see the finer details of the discussion. However, only within that kind of nuanced conversation can two people begin to see each other's point and even perhaps find common ground. But, as you say, we're never going to have that kind of conversation, are we? So I stand by my, "made-up but entirely based on the truth as you've laid it out before me", accusation - you're just another troll for the p-patrol. Have a nice life and good luck!
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I repeat, "Not "all" men are the problem... why are you turning a very specific kind of behavior by "some" men into a general attack on "all" men? Clearly not every guy cat-calls women on the street. But I think you just want to turn it into a generality so you can denigrate the OP. "
Frankly I think you're just mad at women in general and therefore we are not going to have any kind of civil discourse on the subject. You also seem to hate the OP (and anyone that supports the specific topic of discussion) and this too precludes any sort of reasonable interaction.
So when you call BS, I clearly see why.... Everyone one of your comments is completely one-sided. But have it your way - I don't need to discuss this with you since there won't be any kind of "listening" from your side. Also, it's clear to me that you NEED to have the last word in every conversation - so go ahead, have it your way and respond. However, I won't. Good luck with your anger issues - I truly hope you find some help and peace in your life.
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I tried to write to "alpha male" here, but it's pointless. They will generalize stuff it's convenient to them, but when you write "surely not all people are like x" then they say you generalize and are biased Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
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See the thing about truly alpha men is that they aren't bullies. They speak and act in accordance with a well-considered philosophy and moral code. But you'll never hear them call themselves "alpha" - they don't ever need to since based on their actions, everyone just knows.
It's the men who have fear and hatred and self-loathing that you'll frequently find beating their chest (or their women) and going on about how some other guy is so "beta" or gay or some other denigration designed to ostensibly put them in their "place". To these men, women also need to be put in their "place" - especially if they are "uppity" or complain about a male's behavior. Frankly, these type of men are a pain in my place :-p
I can, with little doubt, tell you that Niko and Daniel (and anyone else posting in this thread that generalize and call the behavior of "cat-calling" to be purely "man-bashing", are pretty "beta" in my book. Though to be fair, that may be caused by age, refusal to actually mature or some disability.
Ultimately at the end of the day, both sexes want mates that treat them with respect, honor their commitments, act in concert with the best wishes of the other and live a relatively drama and angst-free life. We aren't very different at all...
Dragon hugs!
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Can't believe I missed this thread for so long...!
Sadly my own father is one of these people who goes along saying "nice things" to girls on the street (his words, not mine). Like, he was a very very late father, he's gonna be 80 this year and I understand those were different times, but just because it was different doesn't make it that going around saying cringe-worthy stuff to women on the street is an alright thing to do. It's not alright in any way, shape or form. It pisses me off because he's actually an otherwise nice person, but I can't overlook shit like this. I just can't. And the worst thing is whenever I'm able to go help him with shopping, he goes as far as pinching the cheeks of the girls working there. I'm embarrassed, the girls are obviously even more embarrassed and my dad's just happily oblivious of his wrongdoings no matter how many fucking times I tell him to stop doing shit like that.
I've had so many arguments with him, but to no avail; he deeply believes he's doing nothing wrong and I don't know what else to do at this point. I don't think he'll ever change or at the very least recognise that what he's doing is just not ok : /
:(
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unfortunately some people will never change, and it's bad when they are family you can't push away and never see again...
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Lets face it, you wanted to be called out, hence why you made such a douchey post.
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I hate this, my gf gets this all the time when i'm not with her, so one tip to stop it: walk with an boy if possible, i know it shouldn't happen at all but this atleast helps against it
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Yeah, but it shows nicely that cat-callers don't treat women as humans but like objects to sexually assault to feel better about themselves.
So when she's obviously taken they will shut up. But when she's free, it's chance to boost their ego.
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yeah, some people are fucked up, but atleast u kinda feel saver when its possible to walk with someone or call with someone
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yeah it helps to some degree, but it can also get worse because they will be both attacking me and taunting my friend.
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a bit overweight, but she has a pretty face.
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Do you know that in fact alpha is weaker than beta?
Alpha particles can be stopped from propagating by sheet of paper. And beta needs aluminum plate. I think I prefer to be beta, looks like it's more powerful Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
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That's cheating! Gamma is pretty much unstoppable >_>
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I'm female. I though you will he able to notice it from my previous posts :P
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You've gone your whole life thinking you were a woman only to find out last week that you're actually a beta male? What a shock!! I hope you've been able to come to terms with this revelation over the past week. I also hope that you've been able to keep most of your clothes; as long as you already had a lot of jeans and t-shirts you'll be OK.
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If you tried to insult me - it's the most lame insult I've ever heard. You'd have to try harder next time to impress me :roll_eyes:
If you were sarcastic / ironic - well I heard better and more funny sarcasms in my life.
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Nah. What I said was so absurd that I never thought you could be insulted by it. I thought it was funny that the guy was completely confident you were a man and he was using that incorrect assumption as a premise to insult you. He has been trying so hard to sound confident, wise, and smart that I also thought it would be absurdly funny if everyone accepted that he knew more about you than you knew about yourself. But, my sense of humor is absurd and terrible, so there is definitely better and more funny sarcasm out there. As my mother always used to tell me, "You're not funny and I love your brother more than you."
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I'm finding your conversation with Mskotor far more entertaining than I think I probably should
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You also made that assumption for someone who started their name with Ms ;)
Also, I have to admit that I'm really laughing right now
I'm also a bit curious, how was her joke about radiation "beta behaviour"?
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All videos posted to SteamGifts should be in accordance with our guidelines.
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...but it would be nice to know why exactly it is not in accordance with the guidelines.
- Piracy, pornography, and other material that may be inappropriate to a general audience should not be posted to the site.
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So, what you're saying is that you feel that video is "appropriate to a general audience?" Well, I don't. And seeing as how you had the option of posting the relevant information using alternate methods, it was totally unnecessary to have used the video in the first place.
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I made a judgement call and gave you a caution. You demanded I cite the specific rule under which I gave you that caution despite knowing full well which rule it was and why you were being cautioned. If you wish to argue about it, you are wasting your time.
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...since you are the enforcer of the rules and you say it it is so i can take your word for it that it is.
That is both intelligent and wise. Your substitution was also a smart move as it removed the problem while demonstrating compliance. Asking questions after complying is seen as seeking understanding and will usually elicit a positive response. Asking questions while failing to comply is seen as being argumentative and will usually elicit a negative response. Keep in mind that the Mods prefer to let the community moderate itself whenever possible. If we are asking for compliance, it is because we are trying to avoid a situation in which we have to hammer someone.
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If a thread raising awareness of catcalling issues (taking into consideration the OP's region), then you need to concede that any thread aimed at discussing matters of male-centric interests where gender is a factor follows as womanhating. If not the thread content exclusively, and just the pepper-spraying, consider digging through the thread to find the scattered details of the actual encounter and why they used the spray. I'm not sure of where you are in the world, but a fair number of western areas allow for proactive self-defense, and when pursued by someone becoming increasingly hostile, a Less-Than-Lethal weapon followed by immediately removing yourself from their presence would usually be considered permissible (given the fact they were already trying to get away from him in the first place). You keep saying that the OP is trying to paint a picture of men being pigs but I would caution re-reading it while being mindful of confirmation bias.
When trying to munchkin the rules, it usually helps to have a solid foundation to build your argument up from. If there is something objectionable you could raise the issue in an adult fashion without using it as a springboard to adding your own (deliberately) divisive language. For someone who claims to be concerned about men being portrayed as pigs, you certainly were quick to jump to stereotypical alpha / beta nonsense, which makes your sentiments ring hollow. You can only have catharsis or progress, not both.
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Yeah, the way we raise our children influence how they will behave when they are adults. They aren't born as racist, intolerant, something-phobic animals etc. But as blank pages that need to be "written down" ; D
I hope we will write more and more nice things on those pages, not dark and gloomy ones as some people do nowadays.
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π Giveaways (moved to top for convenient leeching π):
If you want to share giveaways, please use this template:
copy everything inside the ` (even the opening/closing `grave accents`), edit and and paste it in your reply
Please use the format provided above! It's easier for me to copy-paste multiple giveaways in this thread. π€
It will take me a few days to update the list. To avoid having your giveaway not "showcased" set its duration to more than 5 days (unless you don't care, it's up to you).
Because I'm tired of getting catcalled and watching others in the street receive the same treatment, I decided to share some information with everyone in SG hoping that they can stop doing it and/or talk to their friends to make them reconsider their behavior.
Street harassment is unwanted and unwelcomed public attention, most often directed at women, which is demeaning and damaging. Itβs not a private matter but one that should concern everyone.
If you have trouble empathising with strangers, then think about your mother, sister, or girlfriend. Would you enjoy watching people catcalling and telling them nasty things? How do you think they would feel about it?
On an average day I go out twice and I get at least one guaranteed catcall. On weekends or when I go out, for example to a club, it gets worse because groups of people feel more empowered to do so.
A few months ago I was walking with a friend and one guy said things and started to follow us. After a while it ended with me turning around and pepper-spraying his face, then running away in case he could fight back. This is the kind of violence it generates.
We had a rough rest of the day and were shaken up. I didn't enjoy doing that at all, but he had to be stopped. I also like to think the guy didn't enjoy it either.
So in the end, what did he achieve? Nothing.
Edit
OK, I'm gonna clear this up since some people like to assume things just to blame me for defending myself.
For the backward people, this was in june when I wasn't wearing "provocative shorts and t-shirts" clothes. These are the "nice compliments" I got amongst others i don't even want to repeat here and/or I want to forget:
hey girl nice butt
does your friend wanna F with me too?
hey reply bitch
come here lesbos!
GONNA EAT YOUR ASS
Walked one block with that guy which was 1 meter away from us. He wasn't shouting from the other side of the street, he wasn't half a block away, he wasn't sitting in the sidewalk. He was right behind us.
He got warned to leave us alone during the whole 1-block fast-paced walk. I didn't stop to "discuss" because I'm not a 1.9 meters 120kg guy, so I'm not putting my friend and I at risk at 8:30pm in the street.
You read the "You're not alone" thread?
Well, most of the stuff that I shared about me is linked directly to an experience related to this, but I wasn't walking with a friend and there were two guys instead of one following me. You can guess what happened next since I wasn't able to defend myself.
But of course, street harassment is harmless and nothing else can go wrong, nor it can trigger unhappy memories from past experiences.
Think a bit before judging others so quickly assuming they overreact when they feel in danger.~
I know I probably won't convince anyone catcalling to stop by posting this (it doesn't hurt to try), but if your friends or co-workers do it, you can persuade or talk to them and see if they get it. There's nothing worse than being in a group of friends and allowing them to act like idiots.
It's disgusting and demeaning, stop it. You're hurting people with your actions and makes you look like a fool.
β€οΈοΈ FAQ, in case you're gonna post one of these comments I get all the time.
- But some women like to be catcalled!
Yes, there's also men that like to get hit in the face with a hammer. So using the same logic, I should go out and hit all men with a hammer in hopes they enjoy it?
- Don't be so sensitive, ignore it.
No, it reaches a point it can't be ignored. It's not an isolated issue once per month or in certain situations so you can avoid it. It also affects me a lot depending on my mood, so when you feel like crap and you get catcalled, things get worse.
- So you want others to come to your rescue when some stranger catcalls you? That will end up with me getting in a fight!
I'm not asking people to fight for me, just them to stop doing it, spread the word, and discourage people in their group of friends from being disrespectful.
- If you don't want to get catcalled, dress appropriately!
1: Don't blame the victim.
2: I dress as I please. It's my body, not someone else's.
3: It doesn't matter if it's winter and I'm wearing a jacket, or summer with shorts and a t-shirt. Some people will be idiots anyway and say things.
- I bet you like it when a handsome guy catcalls you!
Irrelevant. I expect respect from everyone.
- What about men? They also get harassed!
I'm very aware guys also get harassed by both men and women, but this thread is about girls. Feel free to create another thread for that issue, and I will support it.
- So this is just a misandrist rant!
It's not. If you feel targeted by anything I said, then it's not because you're a man, it's because you actions ressemble what it's said here.
- Meh, it could be worse.
It could be worse, but it SHOULD be better. Also, normalizing this behavior makes it even more painful for victims.
- Women also catcall!
I never said they don't, but for each woman that catcalls me, i get 500 guys. So the issue at hand is the one I shared.
- This thread offends me!
That tells a lot about you. Log off, take your time, and think about it.
- This thread is inappropriate for SG, please close and delete it!
Go tell that to all other threads about awareness, politics, religion, sports, disasters, etc.
π Some info and articles:
Stop Street Harassment
Wikipedia definition
Documenting women's stories of street harassment
Why we need to take street harassment seriously
Dutch woman faces down her catcallers by posting selfies with them
π Videos:
Au bout de la rue (Court-mΓ©trage) - france
10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman - usa
Woman is filmed walking London's streets for secret documentary - uk
Male actor dresses as woman to experience sexual harassment - egypt
Sons React to Their Moms Getting Catcalled - usa
π And some pictures:
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