Human of SG: have you ever mistreated dragon?
I'd say give it time. The idiot moderators will close this thread down eventually, I'm sure. Unless they are just biased and it's only not ok to "attack" the idiot amullyet. Though I'm pretty sure the thread that led to this thread is also a troll thread.
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Yeah, it's a parody of a troll thread and not something serious (and the posters haven't been openly butting heads or fighting as far as I can tell) so it boils down to just riffing, rather than something more personal. The first troll thread might have potentially been removed though, given tensions were high and it was obviously there to provoke. A little surprised it stayed up actually, which is unfortunate because people seem to have mostly taken it seriously, though it's understandable given the linked article was made with a straight face (even if it was linked to 'troll the trolls', etc).
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To me that's very hypocritical. So it's ok for someone to post a parody of a thread as long as they don't have a history?
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How is it hypocritical?
When people have a history that causes them to fight with each other, it only stands to reason that one 'parodying' the other, when that thread is about something serious and a personal issue for them, then it can blatantly be taken as provocation.
This thread is parodying a thread that was made to troll rather than something with obvious seriousness, and the person doing the parodying doesn't have an obvious history with the other, so isn't likely to be any shade of personal attack.
I'm not sure what you find so strange in this circumstance. There is a big difference in mocking something serious, when you know it will more than likely cause a fight, given you previously have fought more than once, and parodying someone's trolling who they haven't been seen getting into heated fights with.
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Of the mods, to suspend one and not the other. I disagree that there's a difference, a parody is a parody, regardless of the people and issues involved.
And at least from the OP of the burned toast thread, I don't see how it's mocking the issue of harassment at all. There's no indication of that. For instance, if the thread that originated this one was actually serious, I wouldn't see this one as a mockery of the issue at hand, but as a mockery of how the issue was presented. And I commented this same thing on that thread: the fact that this issue is often presented from an extremely sexist and generalizing perspective makes me a complete enemy of the cause, instead of an ally, even if I agree with the main core of the cause.
So I think the main point of the parody is: yes, the issue is serious and we should talk about it, but learn how to present the message in an inclusive way, or you'll make more enemies than allies (even if they actually agree with you).
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Some people use "it's just a parody" like they use "it's just an opinion" though, as if humor precludes ill intent. When you factor in their other clashes and the obvious recent grenade of a thread, plus how close to home and serious the subject the catcalling thread was, it's hard not to see it as antagonising. When it was brought up more than once, the burnt toast thread OP didn't make any efforts to smooth things over, and naturally there was some more head-butting as a result. It's easy to see why a moderator would interpret this as picking a fight and do something.
Whereas I don't think the thread this one is based off of was serious ('how do you treat women'), but to troll. It even has a first reply from the author indicating their expectations (if not intent), but I could be totally off-point here. Some people do subscribe to the lopsided thinking of that article, so I guess that really is just my speculation. However because that OP and the OP of this thread don't have any immediate bad blood between them (and no currently ongoing fights, as well as no direct conflict within this very thread) then it's more likely to err on the side of it being countertrolling (of a less personal and more humorous nature). Though at this point I'm just going around in circles, heh. I don't mean to spam you, I just find it hard to see past my own opinion on something that seems to blatant to me personally, at least given the contrasting situations.
I totally agree with your sentiment regarding the article linked in Vae's thread, it draws lines in the sand and has a divisive and accusatory tone (I might even say bordering prejudicial), and I despise that so many people claiming to be for equality of the sexes have adopted it out of simple want for catharsis. It's for reasons including this that I don't identify as feminist, despite not being opposed to the core goals there is an uncomfortably large portion of its members that are totally fine with that kind of mentality (and frequently enable or promote it, even if only passively). I just can't stand with a group that has been polluted with too much passive sexism. I mean, it's not like there's any easy way to weed out the assholes given the sheer size and spread of the group, but the term 'egalitarian' is more accurate and less sullied, and has less hurdles when brought up in related discussions. It comes without the 'us vs them' magnetism. Not that it stops people instantly assuming I'm an SJW or an MRA as suits them if I ever disagree on something. :P
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Well, I do think humor is different, because it's not serious, while an opinion is.
But I don't know. This parody could just as easily be considered a direct attack, and since based on what that mod said they do not accept direct attacks, I was curious to see where they draw the line. Is it because of the history of the people involved? If so, what if the exact same thread was posted by someone who had absolutely no history with the other person? Would they have received the same treatment? Is it because of the seriousness of the issue? If so, how exactly do the mods decide how serious something is? I just find this whole thing a bit inconsistent, but maybe that's just me.
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I can think of two reasons:
- The person who wrote the post you were parodying complained directly about you - or someone complained on their behalf.
- You personally offended a moderator despite saying you'd never had a problem with the message, just the way it was presented.
Perhaps it was a combination of both. Either way, it's a sad affair when "indirect satirical critique" is elevated to "direct attack".
On the other hand, if I'm reliably informed, you do have a history with the person and that was likely taken into account and added to the context. If this history consists of personal attacks, it does make any defense you might have now less legitimate.
But... I don't know whether you do have a history and if it consists of personal attacks, so I can't really comment too thoroughly.
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Yep, I was only relaying what I'd read from a couple of offended people. Didn't know if it was true or not which is why I questioned if I was reliably informed. And I did doubt it but couldn't discount it either!
I'd say if you were 'obsessed', you would have actually directly attacked her personally instead of the relatively tame and humourous topic you created, but that's just my opinion.
I'd argue that if people were really against any kind of parody, mocking or - yes - even insult, they should also be against the day to day public mockery of celebrities, politicians and other public figures on principle. Next time they see an exaggerated imitation of the US President or see satirical cartoons of proponents of social justice, they might consider feeling offended on their behalf.
Although the fact that you used to be "friends" with Mully makes me wonder if there wasn't some embittered episode between you both, and whether it was substantial enough for the topic to be taken personally. I take it you don't think so, haha.
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Ah I see, that's a shame. If you'd not done anything to suggest you have a personal problem with Mully, the whole suspension and deletion feels unjust to me. Unfortunately, Steamgifts is under no obligation to be just - perhaps they might amend the Guidelines to include "Don't give people or their discussions any unwanted attention", haha.
Jokes aside, if it was just a case of a relationship wandering into obscurity, I see no reason you both can't be casually friendly again - you'll just have to ignore the knights in shining armour I suppose. Hope you'll both find some common ground in the interest of positivity - something I hope for us all.
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Mully and Tzaar seem to be close friends, and this isn't the first time that Tzaar and Nikolaj have bumped heads. Over in the catcalling thread they both confirmed as much. That's what I meant when I said they have history. As I recall, Tzaar posted something to the effect that it wasn't the first time Nikolaj had tried to pick a fight with him, and through a few different comment chains they showed that they're really not on friendly terms. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as them 'having history', so when a person you openly dislike makes a 'parody' thread of something that they both find serious, then it's not a big leap to see that as an attempt to ridicule. I even said more than once that surely he can appreciate why it would be seen as such even if there was no hostile intent, but he had no reply for that, and made no effort to counter how it may be interpreted, no effort to elaborate once offense was taken, and projected the fault of that interpretation on them (claiming no responsibility).
As much as I enjoyed the humor itself, it was sour for me when you realise it was very likely just a 'hidden in plain sight' style of jab. I mean, I even gave it the initial benefit of the doubt, but as I mentioned in a different comment thread : If it really was an innocent parody, when they took offense to it, why didn't he just clarify his real intentions if he only wanted to disarm the bad feelings? Why would he deny their history when it's in open view in the original thread, and claim total innocence? With all things considered, as much as I think it's a flawed premise : Occams Razor suggests that the thread was made to rile the people he is not on good terms with.
Given Mully and Tzaar are in contact with one another and often seem to comment together on issues, why didn't he just ask Mully to confirm his assertions that there is no bad air between them, to cast of all doubts? The fact that Mully hasn't done so of her own volition seems pretty telling, especially with this not being the first clash between Tzaar and Niko.
There are no angels when it comes to these kinds of personal issues, but the claims of total innocence on Niko's part ring particularly false to me. I would link the comment chains in the Catcalling thread but that thing ballooned out of control and I don't much feel like trawling through all that sour mess just to direct link them.
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I agree with a lot of what you've said, and I did see parts of the original comment threat - though I didn't really read much of it when I identified a lot of emotion in it from the start - which is why I prefixed what I said with the admittedly subtle hypothetical if before ending with the simple wish for people to be friendly :P
The only thing I recalled was hearing how Tzaar took issue with and "harassed" Niko in the past; over what Tzaar interpreted as "obsession" with Mully; in which some might find irony. So it seemed like Tzaar and Niko didn't have any personal history outside of it relating to Mully, meaning Tzaar's personal outrage and any previous interactions between them should have no real bearing on the matter.
With it centering around Mully (not Tzaar) and there being an alleged lack of personal attacks upon her, I'd still say this: for someone to be punished and censored (suspended and a topic deleted) over a piece of criticism is wrong on principle. But then again, this is just some niche website on the internet, so it doesn't really matter, haha.
On the other hand that wields pedantry, one could easily imagine a scenario in which the harassment originated and was escalated by either party, evolving into a constant back and forth; switching between offense and defense - the sport of harassment predicated on bad emotions. In which case, both parties are at fault for sustaining the cycle. So like you said, there's a good chance that real animosity existed and that Niko's thread was just the latest occurrence.
It would be nice if either side could apologise for any conscious wrong-doings and just get along. At the very least, I hope this reminds Niko and others not to engage in anything that might constitute a personal attack lest he sacrifice his ability to criticise and create humour out of things he doesn't agree with.
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Most users and I am counting myself in this number, have no idea of your past, or your relations with other users you mention, nor mostly care. Don't worry if someone accuses you of something on forum, people have brain and tolerance not to make conclusions going too far without any other basis.
Two things which person from 'outside' could conclude from your closed topic are, that 1) you don't respect initial topic starter personally, and 2) you don't respect initial topic itself.
What makes someone's personal accusations of your obsession realistic is not these comments of others, but such acting as creating parody topics obviously copying form of original, while ridiculing it with funny, non-issue content. Don't have illusions.
And if 1) shows as personal problem and attack (which itself should not exist on forum), 2) is actively rude to a lot of users. Things discussed in original topic are true, and sometimes end with rape, traumas, honor killings of rape victims and other ugly things which many people in comfort want to ignore. Some users seem too frivolous to make fun of such things. You don't like inconvenient threads, feel free to ignore them.
I wrote this only because I personally respect her. Something person with your current mindset would never deserve. Feel free to make fun of it, you know that you have a long way to grow. But I tried to explain since you seem to write this seriously.
On global picture, there is too many similar issues everywhere to be bothered to invest time in each.
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And me being a bit more unwelkoming than you expect and assume should not dismiss the content.
You noticed, so what? You never protect friends who you believe were right? Arguments are coming from a reason in any case.
Anyway I feel sorry for not finding any common language, it is my defeat too.
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I wanted to whitelist you for such a brilliant satirical piece important contribution to creating awareness to the Dragon Community, but I appear to be blacklisted myself...
Well, I'll do it anyway. ^^
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You evil, evil b*****d!!!!!
Hear me roar - and don't bother to run... you'll just die tired
P.s. I'm normally a nice, peaceful dragon... but this, this is just too much
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I can't actually remember the last time I encountered a dragon. It's been a while.
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bump, and i cant be held responsible for what my skyrim character supposedly did, can i ;)
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Found this when i was playing http://store.steampowered.com/app/416250/Tales_PC/
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Hey humans, what are you planning to do better? Because you need to do better. Here are some ideas on how you should treat dragons better:
Talk to your friend who is “kind of a dragon hunter” at games.
Don’t mount over dragons.
If you are asked to be on a party/team and see that it’s all humans, say something. Maybe even refuse the spot!
When you see another human attack a dragon, say: “Hey, I saw it first, it was mine.”
Learn to read a fucking mission journal.
Don’t call dragons “cruel” in a battlefield.
Don’t use your “big sword” as a way to get dragons to trust you. Show us in your eon-to-eon life, not in your self-congratulatory bestiary entry.
Don’t pet dragons you don’t know, and honestly, ask yourself why you feel the need to tame dragons in general.
Do you feel that any dragon on earth owes you something? It doesn’t. Even if you’re like, “Hm, but what about your loot?” ask yourself if you’ve shown your treasures to them.
Don’t send screenshots of your weapons unless we just asked for them.
If a dragon says no to a group invite, don’t ask it again.
If a dragon has not given an enthusiastic “yes” to being mounted, back the hell off.
If a dragon is really sleepy, it cannot consent to you and it also cannot consent to your teammate who seems to be trying something. Your teammate is your responsibility, so say something and intervene.
If you do the right thing, don’t expect praise or payment or a lick on the back or even a “good job from that dragon”. Congratulations, you were baseline decent.
Involve dragons in your hunting parties, then let them have equal part in them.
Don’t make dragonslayers jokes.
Don’t expect dragons to be “friendly” or “cute” and don’t get upset when they aren’t those things.
Don’t make assumptions about a dragon’s skills, attributes or passives based on their color.
Pray dragons as much as you pray gods.
If a dragon tells you that you fucked up, and you feel like burning, don’t put it on that dragon to make you feel better. Apologize without qualification and then die.
Don’t hate dragons for advantaging your vulnerability.
Don’t get defensive when you get eaten by a dragon.
Don’t need to literally witness a human being reptilian in order to believe that he’s Illuminati. Trust and believe dragons.
Don’t use your over-level to get dragon’s magic/soul/flying/etc.
Be aware of your inherent power in situations and use it to protect dragons, especially via slashing other humans.
Stop thinking that because you’re also a reptile or a survivor that you cannot inflict pain or oppress dragons.
If dragon’s fire makes you feel pain, don’t prize your pain above your mission, or make that pain their problem.
Don’t read a list like this and think that most of these don’t apply to you.
Source: Archangel Michael
Giveaways:
01 /8lI Oz/ by PROcrastiNATION
02 / PbUin/
03 /8 5Tak/
04 /FP fOt/
05 /JFtM W/
06 /8ZXLc /
07 by Alphada
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