Rename blacklist (and possibly whitelist)?
Maybe instead of changing things like this we should change the descriptions of skin colours? Like why does black and white represent a skin tone, when it's clear we are all just shades of brown really? (Apart from some of those extreme northerners who never see the sun) Take this up with the president of the world and see if they can't change it and instantly fix a lot of problems.
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We need to change the name of the British Broadcasting Corporation because of the porn term BBC. It offends me that a British company steals the glory of that genre.
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people finding racism everywhere unrelated is the real racist IMHO
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With the assumption of a term being racist, there must also be racist intent behind it imo. The n-word is used derogatorily. Like when you blacklist someone, do you do it with a racist intent or something? If anything, this just kinda would say more about you than anyone else.
It's such a random thing to focus on too. I mean, go for the argument, I guess, but man, your priorities are a bit weird. Are you offended that black text is on white background too? Or do you associate it with the white background being the majority as some weird metaphor for American demographics? Or like what's happening here? Because at the end of the day it seems to me like a connection just made up in someone's mind. You can attach meanings to everything, hence why astrology and half the conversations and arguments even exist. But just because you perceive things, doesn't mean you're automatically correct and the fact that you didn't think to think first (or you did and you somehow still came to the same conclusion) and instead assumed the worst in people. Well, it is what it is. Good luck with this. Worst part is that like half if not more people here I've literally seen support the current protests and stuff, but this makes it seem like everyone here, including me is just really against those causes...
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I guess we should change Blacksmith and Whitesmith to something else too.
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Token: Seriously, I don't understand why I have to be Blacksmith?
Cartman: Token, listen, I look at you and do you know what? I see a real Black smith
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Full of redpilled heated gamers in this thread. Very sad they can't even contemplate what this means and why other communities are taking it seriously and making those steps.
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This is what it looks like right now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJtvA3jdzPc
Legitimate question: Are colored persons, that are not brown, yellow or red, really offended by "blacklist" ,"master branch" etc and have they requested these changes, or is it just a "let's find something to do"?
It seems to me that white people are more offended by these words.
If it is indeed a problem, change them, by all means, but we have enough problems concerning racism already without you creating new ones.
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As far as I can tell, only the furthest fringe dislike things on the level of 'blacklist', but references of master + slave in technology seem to be more widespread but on just the level that it is found distasteful, rather than blatantly offensive. Its hard to get a solid bead on it given how information propagates in 'bubbles' on the internet.
I totally get why that's a sour reference. Perception can shift drastically with enough context or subject saturation, and I haven't come from a family line or history dealing with stuff like redlined ghettos or weird profiling exposure, so I can only guess how it would fall upon other ears, y'know? It's hard to gauge without having lived it, like how no matter how confident anybody is about subjects of the 'gender war', no man or woman can ever fully appreciate the subtleties of having lived a life as the other sex, y'know? I mean, they can guess, and hypothesise, and try to extrapolate, but in the end its no substitute for having lived it, and where opinions and biases are in effect, people will always confirm what they want to confirm, subconsciously or otherwise.
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Yeah, if only those alt-righters allowed to change the whole vocabulary, racism would be no more.
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If we were to change word racism it wouldn't be anymore...
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And where has "taking it seriously" led ? What have those steps and constantly changing vocabulary accomplished ? Do you have actual, tangible results that have been achieved ? As far as we can see racism, sexism and everything else is as strong as it was and isnt fading.
And thats why this is considered ridiculous by many. Its a fight for the sake of fighting something. So it seems like we are doing something while the actual problems are only growing bigger and bigger.
https://youtu.be/G9n8Xp8DWf8?t=55 - as Carlin puts it - theres nothing wrong with the words. Its the context and the user that make them bad. There is time and place where words should be changed because their meaning actually changes and they have none other use then offending someone - but stop attacking everything that is not even remotely "offensive". He also puts it eloquently that there is a racist on every street corner in america. This doesnt fix that, it just hides it. I dont really condone his use of the N-word in his standup, but it was many years ago and this is one of those words that mostly is used as insult and should disappear from our vocabularies... but words that include black and white ? Dont be ridiculous
Talking about language, as I said, there are things we should change in language. But we shouldnt be taking it too far and finding something offensive in everything. And as I already put some Carlins material here -heres a bit from him that I like about feminists and changing patriarchal language https://youtu.be/Zc38-DeBzPA?t=66
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We can rename black people to first people, original people or even just people. Nobody else would care and the white people who get annoyed for every minority would be happy and stop spamming silly things.
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i find it offensive that black ppl can jump highier, i demand justice asap
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Somebody, explain me, plese, why the hell SG need to do it?
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"white = good" and "black = bad" has a lot more to do with colors than race. Black is the lack of color and white is the combination of all colors, so it just makes sense to use black for negative and white for positive. But, honestly, "allowlist" and "blocklist" make a lot more sense than "whitelist" and "blacklist", because you're literally allowing or blocking a user from entering your giveaways, so I support this change, although I don't feel strongly about it either way.
"master" in computing, however, is directly tied to the "master / slave" connotation, so I do agree that we should move from "master" to "main", which is why I'll be renaming my Git branches as well. Again, "main" makes a lot more sense than "master".
And for those who get so riled up about such a simple change, this says a lot more about you than anything else. Let's not forget that black people were literally treated as less than humans for decades. Which is why you look really stupid when you say things like "WELL, I FIND IT OFFENSIVE THAT ..." or idiotic things like "BUT ALL LIVES MATTER". You're refusing to acknowledge the systemic racism that exists in our society and trying to equate that with your experience. "WHAT ABOUT ME, WHAT ABOUT ME", it's all about you. Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes for once.
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Good that someone else reacted as well. I wasnt gonna comment when I read it, but I couldnt belive when I saw that apparently "no other race or group of people in history was ever subjected to the attrocities that were committed to black people".
Slave trading is alive and well even today and people are murdered all around the world daily because of who they are or what they believe.
But hey, at least the jews where similarly compared to the suffering of what blacks where experiencing.
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Not my intention to diminish any human rights violations done to other groups, I simply wasn't aware of Yazidis and Uyghurs. They were never mentioned in history classes at school, but also my fault for not researching. I edited the post to include them as well.
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Here is a list of diffrent genocides you can link to instead. And you might want to remove "group of people" because there are certainly many groups of people that are treated horribly. Like for examples gays that are thrown off buildings in certain countries where its not tollorated or totally banned.
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Took off the phrase entirely, not my intention to compare either. What I was trying to say is that white people never suffered any of that, and they're usually the ones saying those stupid things.
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I googled white slaves and just picked the first two results. I dont know much about white slavery either because its only certain things that are taught in school as you mentioned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery
https://news.osu.edu/when-europeans-were-slaves--research-suggests-white-slavery-was-much-more-common-than-previously-believed/
Im not trying to diminish anyones suffering either. But one race doesnt own suffering because everyone feel you can just say what happens to white people in the past doesnt count. Because they have white privilege because of how well off they are in Europe and in America.
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That article starts with "a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims". That's not people being enslaved for being white, that's people being enslaved because of religion. We're talking about race here.
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this discussion. At first I thought you were only upset that I didn't mention other groups who were subjected to mass suffering. But now I think you're just trying to make excuses for white people, because why else would you bring up "white slavery"?
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I didnt say anything about white people until you did. As you can see if you read again. I was just suprised about the whole no other people have suffered as much except this and that. And I didnt even respond to you from the beginning.
So we can leave it at that if you want since you removed it, which you didnt have to. I thought it was very wrong statement to argue that one group has suffered more since they are black attitude many seem to have.
But then again I dont live in the states where they talk about race this and race that like its the most important topic ever to try to divide instead of working together.
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Black people have definitely suffered more than white people. That's just a fact. My point was that saying things like "all lives matter" is stupid and racist, because when we say "black lives matter" we're not saying only those lives matter. It's like if someone tells you that their house is on fire and your response, rather than helping them, is "but what about my house?". Only your house isn't on fire.
The same applies to idiotic things like "straight pride", when gays have historically suffered more than straight people.
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As your mistake when you accused me of bringing up white slavery which was just a response to your own comment that you brought up white people. I neither didnt say white people suffered more than blacks.
And I didnt say any other race suffered more than another. I have no comments about your main point and the only thing I had a problem with was the "no other race or group of people in history was ever subjected to the attrocities that were committed to black people". which has already been corrected by you.
Edit 2: I did an edit before but I edit it again since I dont think anything was wrong with what I wrote in this comment. But I can see how it was misunderstood from the latest replies when we started to talk about suffering instead, when the inital statement was "no other race or group of people in history was ever subjected to the attrocities that were committed to black people".
But like I mentioned, it has already been edited by you so everything is fine by me. If that hold any value to you :)
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What's funny is I'm half Native American (my mother's immediate family are Native American farmers). Should I be all up in arms because you "forgot me?" LOL. ;_;
Your message is a good one. A great one. To hell with the details. If anything, my ethnicity only serves to raise my awareness when it comes to other cultures and peoples, and the hardships to which they are subjected.
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That phrase is better off removed anyway, I think it still conveys the same message without it.
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I think it still conveys the same message without it.
It does, and it's shorter, which I always prefer. ;)
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E eu disse que diminui as dores? Eu disse explicitamente que minha intenção não é diminuir dor de ninguém. Mas é exatamente isso que pessoas brancas querem fazer quando elas dizem coisas como "todas vidas importam". Elas querem diminuir as dores dos negros e dizer que o racismo sistemático não existe.
Nunca ouvi falar de genocídio ou escravidão de brancos simplesmente por serem brancos. Geralmente tem algo por trás, como religião, conforme foi mencionado acima. Já os negros foram escravizados por serem negros, simplesmente pela cor de suas peles. Sinta-se livre para me corrigir, como eu sou ignorante do assunto. Talvez usar "nunca" é algo equivocado, mas você entende muito bem o que eu quis dizer.
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E eu reitero que "nunca" pode ser um equívoco, mas que, novamente, você entendeu muito bem o que eu quis dizer. Não estou falando exclusivamente dos comentários aqui. A maioria das pessoas que falam essas coisas são brancas. Isso não é preconceito racial, isso é apontar um fato. Obviamente não engloba todas as pessoas brancas no mundo.
Como eu disse, os casos que eu ouvi falar foram causados por fatores como religião e não pela cor por si só, daí minha suposição.
Mas de qualquer maneira, fazer tanta tempestade por causa de uma mudança de uso de termos problemáticos e falar "todas vidas importam" em resposta à "vidas negras importam" diz muito mais a respeito das pessoas que fazem isso do que qualquer outra coisa. Esse era todo o meu argumento. Apenas isso.
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never mentioned in history classes at school
Newsflash: history classes at school serve as governmental propaganda. They're a starting point I guess, but not the complete picture. The Western world is getting selectively outraged and draws conclusions from a few crimes rather than looking at the bigger picture, like this one (of course, it's more catchy and social network-friendly to focus on a video of 4 multi-ethnic cops murdering one black man than to read a 37 page report...)
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The Western world is getting selectively outraged
On that I agree, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't also be outraged when a cop murders a black man for no reason.
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True, but even there the information is partial. For instance, all we've seen (except if you've really dug into the matter more than the average person) is a white cop choking a black suspect. So the generic conclusion is "white people are racist against black people". While the arrest was in fact done by a group of 4 cops, including one Hispanic and one Asian I believe. I think the more appropriate conclusion about this particular murder is rather: some cops think they're king of the world and can get away with murder.
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Yeah, USA has a really bad police problem. But as bad as the what happend with George Floyd. Im kind of amazed we didnt here anything when this happened (I dont remember any riots or protests anyway)
I did know about the first situation in the video, but there was no real outcry from the people there either from what I know. And the officer walked free. I guess it only matters depending on who the victims are Im afraid.
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I guess it only matters depending on who the victims are Im afraid.
Yup that pretty much sums it up.
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Nudging with my reply over here, so this doesn't potentially split up and generated extra spam :
Reply link
I figured its worth pinging you because you're in on the subject, so deserve the same shot at rebuttals and such if my points felt too off-mark.
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I mean, I just glanced at the video, and the footage used seems to be taken from media coverage. The trick here is that while BLM raises a ton of noise when injustice happens, we don't. Protests don't manifest themselves. They are sparked by a lot of angry people refusing to let something get buried. If there is no spark, no fire will catch and spread. And that lack of action is most definitely not something that should then be turned over and used to suggest others are getting preferential treatment, as it only serves to reduce what the protests are trying to achieve, despite the core of the objection being our own fault. It feels to be even more distasteful to me when BLM actually tried to signal-boost info about said non-black fatalities in police custody, and while black fatalities have taken priority in the shout-outs during the chants, they have also been called out. If someone feels the white fatalities are racially motivated, then it isn't down to a black fatality oriented group to champion that for us, is it? I'm honestly tired of hearing people trying to shift that onus over, if not overtly, then with muttered sarcasm about 'well we know who REALLY matters'.
While we're sat here debating about whether or not the unjustified police killings were truly racial in nature, the attempted counterpoint of "we never hear about it when it happens to white people" would only work if there was a media blackout of the subject, or of mass protests sparked from white killings. It's a faulty comparison, especially when you google such things you often find it was in fact covered, but because none of us were making noise about it so that it couldn't be swept under the rug, that's exactly what happened. You can bet that if white fatalities sparked a decent protest about police brutality and had the same kind of footage backing it up, a shit-ton of every other race would join in as their awareness of the killings snowballed, just as it took a good number of us to catch up to info on Mr Floyd but then stepped up with BLM.
I feel that at the end of the day, whether the detainment prior to the killing was racially motivated, or whether the killing itself was racially motivated, is utterly beyond our scope for verifying (the difference between malicious 'accidents' and awful judgement calls due to the weird conditioning and training they have can be hard to tell). But what we CAN acknowledge is the major history in racial crud that has gone down, and that the shown abject brutality / corruption / garbage tier training is something that needs to be gutted entirely from the law enforcement system. The focus on us vs them honestly doesn't serve anybody but the actual antagonists we're diverting energy away from.
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the attempted counterpoint of "we never hear about it when it happens to white people" would only work if there was a media blackout of the subject, or of mass protests sparked from white killings. It's a faulty comparison, especially when you google such things you often find it was in fact covered, but because none of us were making noise about it so that it couldn't be swept under the rug, that's exactly what happened.
The point is just that people don't go around automatically making it a racist crime that deserves weeks of riots when the victim is white, while they do when the victim is black. Same when the victim is female (it's sexist by default) vs when the victim is male (it's not sexist by default).
The reaction that you describe about white victims is, IMO, the reaction we should get for any crime (cover it somewhat, but don't make mountains out of it).
BLM and similar movements pick up on any crime that touches black people and build up a racist narrative on top of it. Despite statistics demonstrating that intra-ethnic crimes are a lot more frequent than inter-ethnic crimes (no matter the ethnic group, except maybe for Asians, who get attacked more by other groups than by themselves, probably because they are in small numbers - talking about US stats here), and that if there's any tendency toward one ethnic group attacking another one more, it would be black people attacking other groups (slightly) more often than they are attacked by other groups themselves. Table 14 page 13: https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6686
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They are not history, they are happening right now.
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Yes.Native Americans (the native people from the American continent) are also forgotten most of the time. They suffered slavery and genocide first during the conquest of the Americas and later the birth of American nations. Entire ethnic groups have been lost including their language and culture.
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master" in computing, however, is directly tied to the "master / slave" connotation, so I do agree that we should move from "master" to "main", which is why I'll be renaming my Git branches as well. Again, "main" makes a lot more sense than "master".
Is it though?
I'd understand changing the master/slave HDD thingy but even that is sort of becoming out of date, but how is the git branch thingy tied to master and slave?
And should we for example change the title Grand Master in chess now?
The main reason I'm against this is that it'll create A LOT of unnecessary hassle in repositories...
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Regardless, how does "master" make more sense than "main"? "master" is the main branch of the repo anyway. So why not use a more appropriate term to describe the branch?
git branch -m master main
git push -u origin mainWhere's the hassle? Contributors can just as easily update their local clone. PRs can be easily moved to another base branch. If you use scripts that reference the master branch, simply doing Ctrl + R and replacing "master" with "main" takes care of that.
If you use separate repos for separate channels, then "stable" and "dev" or "beta" make even more sense than "main" or "master".
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Regardless, how does "master" make more sense than "main"? "master" is the main branch of the repo anyway.
never said it does, it would've saved us a lot of time if they just used main from the start, but don't see why we would waste time changing the existing master branches to main, informing everyone, explaining why, and dealing with this totally unnecessary change which would only waste us time and do nearly no-good especially since master isn't used in that offensive context here..
It's one thing if that's the only thing requested, people are calling for "git push please" and remove "git force"..
This is how you know that the people who are suggesting these things are probably not even dealing with it on daily basis and they just see words and get triggered because it's hip to be an SJW
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I haven't heard of Git, GitHub, GitLab or any other platform talking about changing "git push force". That would be going too far. This isn't a black and white issue, no pun intended. It doesn't have to be "we're not gonna change anything" or "we're gonna change everything". Changing "master / slave" makes sense and it's a connotation that we can avoid using given its historical usage. Changing "git push force" makes no sense whatsoever.
I agree that most of the time "woke" people and SJWs are just looking for things to be offended over for attention, but sometimes the issue is relevant.
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The online SJW mob is talking about it not the platforms but sooner or later, it'll be a thing, source from the github link in OP, the repo owner linked this Twitter thread for "extra info" and reasoning behind what he did
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Sitting there and saying people are refusing to acknowledge systemic racism because they say something like "All Lives Matter" is an ignorant statement which comes across like you're trying to shame people into sharing your viewpoint. Instead, why not take the time to have an open dialog about topics. I for one do think this concept of systemic racism is a load of shit, though I do still acknowledge that racism exists.
The problem with systemic racism imo is that the issues affecting black communities, or other minority communities isn't a result of race, but rather a result of economic disadvantages. Minority groups are disproportionately represented within poor communities, and as a result of lower taxes being received from these communities, they receive worse funding to local educational institutions, have less opportunities for good jobs, less options for shopping, lower property values, etc etc etc. Do I sympathize? you're damn right I do, I've been at the bottom as well, and suffered many of the issues they do, including with police.
So when people sit and comment how all lives matter, some genuinely are trying to look at it from a perspective of helping all people who suffer these issues, because regardless of certain groups being disproportionately represented in these situations, it doesn't mean they're the only ones.
What we need to be doing is fighting for better education systems across the board to help the less fortunate receive the same quality of education, along with more programs to aid in improving job skills and getting jobs. Helping those who have barely enough money to get by not have to chose between starving to get an education, or giving up their electricity/heating. Because when you come from nothing, no matter who you are, getting somewhere is damn near impossible. This is also why crime rates in areas where people suffer like this are significantly higher.
If we could address the underlying issue at it's core, which is economic standing, and help people get ahead. We'd see far less issues than we do. Treating cops like the enemy, or other races as the enemy won't accomplish shit. Trying to enforce equal representation across everything isn't going to accomplish anything either, you can't force people into careers, and at the same time, when people aren't hired based on the merit of their skills, it creates resentment, and further division.
All in all, I'd love nothing more than to see everyone have equal opportunity in life, I'd love to see communities of mixed races come together like I remember they did in the 90's. However I do not agree with the approach people are taking to all the problems right now, and I feel all they're doing is pushing one another apart. If we can fix the underlying problems causing economic disadvantage, and giving people more opportunity to accomplish a good life even if poor, so long as they put in the effort, we'll see a huge shift in workforce, government, law enforcement, crime, etc etc etc.
That all said, I acknowledge racism exists, and it will always exist because some people are just ignorant human beings. These people will sometimes make there way into institutions and possibly taint them a little, but... That does not mean the institutions or systems are inherently bad, just that some bad apples made it in. Just like every race has bad apples, every religion has bad apples, every sexual orientation, and ethnicity. There are good and bad human beings in all walks of life, and we deal with them as we can, on an individual basis. Where systems and institutions are concerned, again, I feel we need to address the underlying issue of economic disadvantage.
Nobody has to agree with me, but if you're going to disagree, whether with me or others, maybe try and engage in civil discourse. As for the whole whitelist, blacklist, etc etc with words. As I've stated previously... The words aren't the problem, it's the context and intent of said words. People can use whatever words they want, but I will never advocate for policing of speech.
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systemic
You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.jpeg
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Yes, I clearly mixed up systemic and systematic, my bad. But I still don't see how racism ties into it. There is a systemic issue, but it's based on economics, not race.
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saying people are refusing to acknowledge systemic racism because they say something like "All Lives Matter"
In some cases, they are. Like I said, saying "black lives matter" doesn't mean it's an exclusive thing. It doesn't mean "fuck all other lives". It's just trying to bring awareness to the issues that disproportionally affect black communities. When you say "all lives matter" in response to that, you're missing the point. Of course all lives matter, and that includes black lives. Rather than doing that, why not listen to what the community is saying and try to understand where they're coming from?
The problem with systemic racism imo is that the issues affecting black communities, or other minority communities isn't a result of race, but rather a result of economic disadvantages.
And how exactly do you explain the economic disadvantages that disproportionally affect black communities? Take mass incarceration and housing, for example.
That does not mean the institutions or systems are inherently bad, just that some bad apples made it in.
Bad apples spoil the entire basket if you don't take them out. We've seen over and over again cases where cops do this and they go completely unpunished. If it's really just some bad apples, why aren't these institutions doing a better job filtering them out?
Also, systemic racism doesn't mean that everyone is a racist. It just means that the systems were designed in a way that disproportionally affects certain groups. When you take into account the fact that these systems were mostly built hundreds of years ago, it's not surprising that they give these results. Which is why many people advocate for police reform, justice system reform, prison reform, etc.
but I will never advocate for policing of speech
Choosing not to use language with problematic history isn't policing speech, it's having empathy.
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To start off, I confused systemic with systematic, that's my mistake. That said, I still just don't see how race needs to be tied into the problems, because at the base of it all, it's not about race, it's about financial disadvantage. Again, that's not to say there aren't racists who need to be dealt with, but yah.
In some cases, they are. Like I said, saying "black lives matter" doesn't mean it's an exclusive thing. It doesn't mean "fuck all other lives". It's just trying to bring awareness to the issues that disproportionally affect black communities. When you say "all lives matter" in response to that, you're missing the point. Of course all lives matter, and that includes black lives. Rather than doing that, why not listen to what the community is saying and try to understand where they're coming from?
The simple truth is, whether a certain group suffers it at a disproportional rate or not, it's not racism, and thus saying something like all lives matter isn't trying to belittle the suffering of the black community, but rather look at it from a broader viewpoint. As for listening, I don't have to listen, I've been there, I'm still struggling to improve my life, I grew up with friends and family of various races and ethnicities, from Jamaicans, to Haitians, French, Chinese. Native American, Portuguese, Vietnamese, etc etc etc. Many of us suffered through the hardships, and despite the differences in our skin colours, we all view the issues the same way. We understand racism exists, but racism isn't the cause of our hardships.
And how exactly do you explain the economic disadvantages that disproportionally affect black communities? Take mass incarceration and housing, for example.
You come from a poor family, you're going to be poor. Some escape and improve lives, some don't. It may be a result of historical racism dating back hundreds of years ago, but it's not a result of modern racism. As for mass incarceration, that's a simple statistic of life in poverty within a capitalist country. Life in poverty is more likely to lead to crime, and it just so happens the majority of people who suffer poverty are minority groups.
Bad apples spoil the entire basket if you don't take them out. We've seen over and over again cases where cops do this and they go completely unpunished. If it's really just some bad apples, why aren't these institutions doing a better job filtering them out?
Also, systemic racism doesn't mean that everyone is a racist. It just means that the systems were designed in a way that disproportionally affects certain groups. When you take into account the fact that these systems were mostly built hundreds of years ago, it's not surprising that they give these results. Which is why many people advocate for police reform, justice system reform, prison reform, etc.
I fully agree changes need to be made, more police need to account for their actions, but again, it's not down to racism, it's down to assholes with a god complex.
Choosing not to use language with problematic history isn't policing speech, it's having empathy
The context of language is all that matters. That said, people can choose to use whatever words they want, but coming forward to SG for example, and telling them to change the words they use, that's trying to police the language on the site. If they decide to change the words, I personally don't care, I don't see what's problematic with them to begin with, because again, I believe in context, but telling them they should change the words is just wrong. I know you're not telling them too, I'm just speaking in the broader context of the thread.
All that said, I just don't understand why race needs to be brought into the conversation, because the vast majority of issues being combat aren't race related at their core. But I fully support change that gives more opportunity to those suffering. Everyone should have a chance at a good life, and not feel pushed into corners they can't get out of no matter how much they claw and scratch to get out. Our governments need to step up and invest in their citizens growth, and police brutality needs to be dealt with on all levels.
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it's not about race, it's about financial disadvantage
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then. There doesn't have to be just one cause to it, it's not that simple. Financial disadvantage is definitely one of the causes, but so is racism, and you also have to look at why there's financial disadvantage in the first place and why it affects black people disproportionally. But anyway, I'm exhausted from having this conversation (in general, not targeted at you specifically).
The context of language is all that matters.
I wasn't talking about whitelist / blacklist specifically. Like I said, I have no strong feelings about it either way, because to me this particular case is more related to colors than race, although like I also said, allowlist / blocklist makes a lot more sense in the way it's being used. But when you think about the master / slave connotation in computing, the context is there, and it's exactly the same context as the one used historically.
and telling them to change the words they use, that's trying to police the language on the site
What? You seem to imply that they're mandating SG to change the word, when they're just suggesting it. How is that policing language? That makes zero sense. The only people that can police language here are the mods and cg.
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Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then. There doesn't have to be just one cause to it, it's not that simple. Financial disadvantage is definitely one of the causes, but so is racism, and you also have to look at why there's financial disadvantage in the first place and why it affects black people disproportionally. But anyway, I'm exhausted from having this conversation (in general, not targeted at you specifically).
That's fine, in the end it's not a big deal if we agree. We both want the same outcome really (aside from speech), we just look at the root of the issue from a different perspective if anything, or that's my take away at least. I'm honestly tired of all the conversations too, personally wish this kind of stuff didn't have to be discussed to begin with. Just know, I'm not saying financial disadvantage is the only cause, I'm just saying it's the major root cause, while I find most are trying to say racism is the major root cause, and I just don't agree with that.
I wasn't talking about whitelist / blacklist specifically. Like I said, I have no strong feelings about it either way, because to me this particular case is more related to colors than race, although like I also said, allowlist / blocklist makes a lot more sense in the way it's being used. But when you think about the master / slave connotation in computing, the context is there, and it's exactly the same context as the one used historically.
I know what you mean about the whitelist/blacklist, that's why I said "I know you're not telling them too, I'm just speaking in the broader context of the thread." As for the master/slave terminology in scripting and context, I still don't see it as an issue since it's not directed at people.
What? You seem to imply that they're mandating SG to change the word, when they're just suggesting it. How is that policing language? That makes zero sense. The only people that can police language here are the mods and cg.
I'll concede on this one, I had forgotten how the OP was written for this thread, and likely mixed it up in my head with something else trying to police speech. So many of these discussions online, it all starts to become jumbled in your head.
That all said, thanks for the conversation. Hopefully you can see that not all people with apposing viewpoints are somehow trying to diminish the value of black lives, but rather just have a different outlook on the problems and possibly how they need to be dealt with. And hopefully others can look at this conversation (if they take the time to read it) as relatively civil and try to act the same instead of ripping each others throats out. Difference of opinion doesn't equal enemy.
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"master" in computing, however, is directly tied to the "master / slave" connotation, so I do agree that we should move from "master" to "main", which is why I'll be renaming my Git branches as well. Again, "main" makes a lot more sense than "master".
Either that's a bullshit or you should have no problem to show me at least one repository on github (not belonging to you), named "slave".
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Sooo. Now DC have to rename Blackgate to somethin else? And what about Tolkien? "Black and White" games? Black Pearl in "Pirates" ? Oh, and what about Black Panther of Marvel... Uh, sorry, I forgot, that he is black.
P.S. And of course Black Friday...
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We should all agree that it's not possible to say something without upsetting someone in the world.
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Your oppression upsets me. Let's fix it by agreeing to say only the things that upset a majority of people, because if it's a minority then it's racism.
/s
edit: I added /s. Then I thought why I added it, and it made me understand a part of freedom in the world is gone.
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Black people are only special in history of mankind in the way they make others get triggered in their defense. Every other part of humanity has had to make their way up the ladder themselves. There were slaves of every color in the darker centuries before. But only one group still uses that excuse to get special treatment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_slave_trade
Oh no! The evil Swedes took Finnish slaves as they wanted! Maybe it's just was how things were at those days and not some deliberate act of racism? Should we all now hate all Swedes and ban them from the Internet?
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Sweden is a fun place... Specially how they practised eugenics and other stuff to pretty late time...
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Just as germany accepted a major dark period in their history and have adapted to try not repeat them, the matter of race in America is similar. Taking ownership and responsibility for your past is kind of a prerequisite of moving on as a whole, because without that, the only people that move on are those who weren't effected by it.
Americans are sensitive to the subject because of how far back it goes into their history, and not only how long it continued for, but also how it continued to manifest as civility tried to constantly iron out the creases. When a dire stretch of history ends abruptly and definitively, there is a sense of closure and security that allows people to move on and build back up from whatever ruin was caused. However when there is no such definitive halt, and a recurring pattern that takes a variety of often insidious forms, then of course the culture is going to be affected.
Yes, sometimes members of the victim demographic see instances of the demons when they are not there, and yes, sometimes members of the society overreachi in an effort to defend against something they thought was an echo of that shameful past. False positives there are both an effort to protect themselves (and each other) from the continuing pattern. But it does also still continue to manifest. Not every incident is automatically just paranoia of over-reaching. There are false negatives also, with people assuming folks are being oversensitive or just entitled, when in fact they were actually profiled, targetted or discriminated. We still see people ritualistically defending the indefensible, rather than acknowledge that elements of the past still manage to crop up. That lack of clean cut-off for the slice of awful history has indeed led to bias, but it is not so convenient as to be in any single direction. What we see happening is Americans attempt to truly own and be responsible for their shit, clashing against Americans trying to defend their slice of normalcy (be it against percieved racism where it was mistaken, or be it people shit-talking those dealing with actual racism but unwilling to let themselves see it.)
I would honestly rather err on the side of caution, going a little too far to prevent the recurrance of racism, rather than being a little too lax and allowing it to propagate. Normalisation is a hell of a thing, and to normalise indifference to prejudice is far more dangerous in my eyes, than normalising being too defensive.
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The act of treating one group of people based on their skin color in a different way than others is an act of racism always. It can be negative or positive, still racism. True equality comes only when there are only people, no colors.
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One part of that equation is a reaction to the other, though.
The rational solution is to take it out at the source and allow the reactions to subside, not to equate them closely while shrugging and essentially saying "it should just stop happening". Ample time has passed for it to 'simply run its course'. That isn't realistic. Sadly it has no easy solution. As I said in my previous reply, this is the nature of severe negative cultural events that trail on for generations without a clear and sharp end.
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So you assume people would stop doing negative things and hating each other with the passage of time? That really is not realistic at all. Neither is the idea that just repeating things enough times will somehow change their ways and stop them from doing negative things.
What about the racist culture of black people hating white people for something those white people had no part in? Should we riot every time a black criminal shoots a white cop in USA? Oh right, that's perfectly fine since they are black.
All this has more to do with them giving out free assault rifles to school kids than any racism.
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No, I don't assume that at all. However the shrug of "once we stop seeing colour everything will be fine" is passive to the point of being something of a nonsequitur, in relation to what was being replied to. We can either try to correct it when race is an apparent factor, or we can hope folks 'stop seeing' race and so stops being a criteria for mistreatment, but in the latter (which was your summary), we have no influence other than to wait for them to correct themselves. It is unrealistic.
And yet despite the empty platitude, you immediately segued back into examples of racism in black people, which is not serving the end-goal of what you proposed. If you direct your scrutiny only in one direction rather than at the whole of the situation and its many contributing factors (whether immediate, historical, real and physical or emotional and only percieved), then no truly lucid oversight can be found, only a skewed and fractured piece of a very large, very intricate social puzzle.
Remembering previous times I tried to discuss things with you, I think I'm just going to leave it at that.
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For me the easy solution would be to do something useful that advances you in life instead of crying that you were dealt a bad hand. Who and where you are born is a lottery, some win and some lose just like it has been always. Some are born poor and stand up with hard work, some blame being poor on the rich, some just stay poor without thinking. Life sucks and then you die, but it's up to you yourself what you do with it.
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Which in a truly equal system would be the correct response, but it operates on the assumption of equality.
If the system is not equal, and enough bias is present to effect outcomes unjustly, then that becomes a flawed premise.
This becomes pertinent when you remember that states can enact laws and policies of their own, and that attitudes and behaviours can vary drastically between districts alone. While in one stretch of neighbourhoods, it may be the ideal situation of 'people just being people'. While in another, race, or sex, or class, can have more gravity on an individuals treatment and results. A fine example of this is 'the bible belt', in how it contrasts in treatment of demographics. Or areas that are dominated by certain groups.
There is also the equivalent 'learned helplessness' aspect, where even after an unfair obstacle has been removed, the conditioning to expect unfairness causes the subject to stop trying to overcome the task, convinced that it is a waste of effort that can only lead in negative consequences. There is a limit to how many times a culture can say "Okay, you're equal now" followed by blatant inequality, repeating, before that demographic becomes conditioned to expect the pattern to continue. Even if we assume that all racism has been removed, and that pattern has been broken, it isn't enough to simply say "we'll stop destroying the bridges you try to build over this trench we kept digging", it must also be demonstrated to be the case, and the divide that was created and continually and repeatedly sustained despite claims to the contrary, must be dealt with. The disbelief is natural. The bogeyman was very real, and they were told so many times it had been exorcised when it had demonstrably not been.
I'm not american, nor am I black, so I can't say either way what the situation is on the ground floor there, but one thing we can do is use hindsight to analyse events that happened in the past, with clarity that would not have been forthcoming to those who lived it at the moment. As such, an interesting thing to consider reading in relation to 'working hard to make more of yourself' is Redlining, which goes hand in hand with a certain quote :
“It’s all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
How much this applies to today, and at what level? I'm not sure. But what I do know is that for people to 'stop seeing colour', it is a bridge that must be built from both sides, but the side that instigated all the worst, has already pretended to be ready for that plenty of times. It's going to take more than essentially saying "deal with it" for the ghost of these events to vanish, Starwhite. It persists. Parents teach their children to be cautious of it, and to protect themselves against it. Even while some might assume that because a generation hasn't lived the worst of it, they would not be influenced by it, but they are. Try to consider all the factors when drawing your conclusions.
I know I said I was going to disengage, but a mix of sleep procrastination and lack of willpower to disengage totally got me ;P
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Yes. And while we are at it we also shall rename "finish line" to something else. I know it's finish not Finnish it was just a joke please don't hate me I'm not a Swede.
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"Words should not only be interpreted by how you think is sensible, but also by how it would be perceived by others."
few days ago i had that kind of argument with "that" kind of person and when i asked like then why don't we all shut up as anyone could be offended by anything or why shouldn't it be taken into account that some things that they might find offensive are not offensive from the point of view of some others and why those others should basically be forced to shut up so they (the one i was talking with given as an example) feel good or why something they think is fine would be fine if some others think it's not. as usual it resulted in argument 404 gibberish, anger, insults and going away from them
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Dont forget to boycott Half life because of Black Mesa
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There are two things I can't stand.
People who are intolerant of other cultures and the Dutch.
;)
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As someone who has suffered with and reproduced prejudice before, I really like your idea. One may think words don't have an impact on life until, under a different context, vulnerabilities are shown. So, improve the quality of the environment, shall we?
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Maybe just stop using black as a descriptor for people? Then it should be fine in all other uses. :)
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THis might shed some truth to this thread not being as silly as some thought...
Latest news on cnn.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/us/racism-words-phrases-slavery-trnd/index.html
Excerpt from news article...
And last week Twitter announced it's dropping "master," "slave" and "blacklist" from its code after two engineers lobbied for the use of more inclusive programming language. America's biggest bank, JPMorgan Chase, says it's taking similar steps.
"Words matter," a Twitter engineer said about the move.
Blacklist/whitelist:
In tech, a blacklist refers to a directory of specific elements, such as email addresses, IP addresses or URLs, that are blocked. A whitelist, by contrast, is made up of elements that are allowed. Though the origins of those terms don't appear to be directly connected to race, some argue that they reinforce notions that black=bad and white=good.
Google's Chromium, an open-source browser project, and Android's open-source project have both encouraged developers to use "blocklist" and "allowlist" instead.
And recently, the National Institute of Standards and Technology -- a federal agency that develops technology, metrics and standards for everything from atomic clocks to computer chips -- said it would stop using computer security terms with racist overtones. The agency said it would formally urge other organizations to drop them too.
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Just name it rude kittens and cute kittens easy solution
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As other projects have, or are, renaming outdated terms, I suggest SG rename 'blacklist' (e.g. to 'blocklist') and possibly whitelist too.
And for those that consider these terms not racist, this comment sums it up for me:
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