Handling Bundle Keys

Isn't the point to just "give something away"? I would use this to get rid of keys/games I would never play that came with games I did want via the bundle. If it's in a bundle, doesn't everyone know about it (usually from this site)? How they acquire the game is no concern to me. The "value" of the game is no concern as the value does not affect your winning status.

TL;DR Who cares if it's from a bundle? There is no monetary transaction.

I think the games that are currently in a bundle should be marked somehow so that creating a giveaway won't add points, it should value should be less (say half the points needed to enter). Also in the giveaways list they can be colored differently, so that the other users know it's in a bundle(maybe a link to the bundle too??) and they might be encouraged to buy the bundle.

There's two main motivations to revising how bundle keys are handled. First, and most importantly, is easing the workload of the single moderator and single administrator of this website. Without them, the site is dead, and there are no spares of them sitting around. Second, is how to handle the feedback/recognition/reputation that is earned from giving away games here.

The mod and admin workload is in large part due to the policies that they have put in place. So, one possible way to ease things is to have less things to enforce. Obviously easier said than done, since there is usually good reason for the rules.
Despite rigorous efforts to enforce the bundle key policies, it is obvious that many, to say the least, have slipped by. The potential is that an entire account could have reputation built upon cheaply acquired individual keys from bundles. How much worse is that than having rep built on bundles which are worth six points or so, and were bought in mass for 1 cent each? Doing this is actually in line with the rules of the site, even though all those purchases actually cost the bundle selling companies the credit card transaction fee and provided nothing to charity. At least now, most bundles come with a minimum of 1 to 5 dollars, so the keys bought were something of a legitimate purchase.
Then there are game keys that come at no cost or limitation by a funding source. Reddit mass giveaways and the old IGN trial days provided a lot of free rep to some people, and they are usually not viewed as much of a problem as bundle keys are.

One point I think I'm coming to is that the whole feedback/reputation thing has gotten out of control. Are people really giving games away as a pure philanthropic gesture, or is it to gain recognition and possibly reward? I think people who do good, and are generous to others deserve some "karma" or some kind of indirect benefit in life. But, as is evident from many "Why do you give?" threads, many people need more substantial motivation than that to give. I can say for myself, sometimes I give because it will make me feel good to do so, and some times it is because I feel the need to live up to my generous fellow community members. But, it sure doesn't hurt if it keeps you in good standing with those other generous people, right? Right.
Fact is, the feedback/rep system is what it is, built on money, exploits, and everything in between. It is too late to totally overhaul it now, and it is mostly a good thing. To go back, and retroactively change what is recorded would be basically impossible to do, especially fairly. So, it is hard to make those same games now worth nothing on the site. At least bundle keys cannot be obtained completely for free, as far as I know. And there is no stigma against giving away games gotten free from the winter coal days.

One possible idea, which comes partially inspired from another giveaway site and partially from SteamTrades, is to give games point values based on fair market value, rather than current Steam retail. Actually, this is already done with CS:GO and DOTA 2, as they have no retail price. Every time a game goes on a big sale, there are coupons spammed out, or it gets put in a bundle, the value of said game drops. One day you could get a lot with a tradable copy of Assassin's Creed Revelations, but after the mass coupons, it was always valued less.
Problem here is that it would certainly have an initial difficulty curve, with all current games needing to be evaluated. So I could see how this could be unpopular with those who must do the work. Another possible problem could be user feedback, or backlash for that matter, if they do not agree. As much as this is a community website, it is still something that was started and run by one man(to my knowledge). So, if cg says that Toy Soldiers is worth more than Shank, who should argue with it?

As for the problem of front page spamming of too many bundle and free games, I think that filtering could solve most of that. The well known SG enhancement add on is useful to me, as I can filter out every game I already own or choose to ignore.
If the spam of key giveaways is so massive that it actually causes server problems, then that is another matter.
As important as it is to provide a pleasant user experience, I think most people wanting a free game will be willing to wade through the listings to get what they want. I mean, they are games you can win at no cost to you, how bad is it that you have to complain about there being too many? That brings me back to the ability to filter ...

I'm tired and tired of rambling.

TL;DR - Mostly observations/opinion, possibly add filtering to the front page, and possibly implement game points at fair market value instead of retail.

Didn't read everything, might be already said, but here is my suggestion:

Step 1:

Only allow a regular giveaway to be made if the user has the Game in his Inventory. You CAN check this.

Step 2:

Add new type of giveaway: Key. This is assumed to be a bundle, does not generate points and does not add towards the amount gifted, since this seems to be important to some people.

But we really should allow people to give away their leftovers.

I'd like to suggest that first off, buyers of bundles check the ToS. Most bundles have a line that says "your download link (or Steam keys) are yours and cannot be traded, exchanged, sold...".

By gifting a single key, any user breaks that rule and this could result in the deletion of the bundle copy. Basically, both the winner and the gifter don't have the games anymore.

I'd also suggest a banner appears when creating a giveaway for a bundle, and it tells you to check the ToS.

The system is already in place however. Should a winner have his game removed, they can just turn the feedback to not received.

Maybe a plausible solution to it, would be: if the giveaway maker makes a giveaway of a game that belonged on a bundle, they have to specify when creating the giveaway itself (maybe by simply adding the option, such as [xxxxx (4 copies)(key or gift)] ), and if they are giftable copies, adding a screenie of the item in the inventory, since forcing everyone to have a public profile is just not right.

This is open to suggestions and modifications, my 2 cents :D

Add a key drop feature to SteamGifts. Allow people to deposit game keys that get given to users randomly (SG knows which games you have) with a few buttons for Redeemed, Already Used, Invalid etc.

A separate section for bundle keys with a different points system would be best. I have an extra ARES and I can't think what to do with it.

How about a giveaway that is made every week or month, and in it should be all bundle giveaways that people created in whole week/month. That should keep only 1 giveaway on front page, and it would increase chance of winning, would be more winners.

Just allow people to give them away. That's the whole point of the site.

nice idea, making a [BUNDLE KEY ONLY] giveaway, with a banner, or something (like the DLC, group banner, etc), with no effects on poits/feedback

the forum way is just full of ninjas... i do that once, 3 seconds after, all the keys where gone...

nice idea, go on with this!

"ow about a "separate section" for giveaways that is bundle key only that doesn't affect points or feedback"
This

Make a new dropbox for "Bundle" Games. And don't let games generate points. (It still has to cost you points to participate but just not generate points.)

I also have alot of spare keys sitting around. And not willing to give em to Ninja's ;-)

Well, seriously, what about discounts in Steam? You don't care about separate games and value them equally if they were bought on sale or they were bought for full price. More importantly, i haven't seen anything about retail keys — they also are considered legit.

tl;dr I don't see a big difference here. Allow submitting of individual keys, leave the system intact, maybe create a checkbox on giveaway creation "is this key?" for retail/bundle keys to separate them from gifts.
Maybe lower points required for indies etc. But don't dig too deep here, it's not an actual problem.

I honestly have to say, it took me quite a while to understand what the problem is exactly.. IMHO it doesn´t realy matter how much someone payed for a gift, it is the gift that matters!

I now kind of understand your point of "not giving someone more points than he deserves" when the gift is "only" a leftover key of a bundle, especially with the contributer-giveaways and all.. but lets face it: There is absolutely NO way to make this a 100% fair system. Last week there were "Homefront"-Keys on sale at an onlineshop for 3€ each.. I bought one for myself and thought at this price, I might give one away on steamgifts. I payed 3€, created a Giveaway and the system gave me 20$ in my statistic for this game. This means I´ve cheated the system just the same way someone with Bundle-Keys does.. and anyone else who buys games on Steam when there is a sale.

With most bundles nowadays having a minimum-pricing (at least for steam-keys) and no 0,01c-scams are possible anymore, I believe the system should not be too restrictive. I want people to be able do give away leftover keys and I think the best way (like its been suggested before) would be to put an additional "bundle-version" of a game onto the games list.. like "Machinarium" and "Machinarium (Bundle-Key)". Of course there will still be some dishonest people, but there always are and this way you would not punish the good and honest guys.

I think A Bundle-Key-Game should be considered as 1 or 2 dollars worth and the whole bundle should also follow this rule.. right now the database-price is set as the final minimum price of the bundle, but I think the amount of games in the bundle should set the price.. 1 or 2 dollars a game, like the single-keys.

As I said before with my homefront-example, it is imposible to get a 1:1 translation of what I payed for a game and what it nets my statistik on steamgifts, not only when it comes to indiebundles.. you should get your mind completely off that idea ot find a nice solution.

Hope that I didn´t write too much confusing stuff, because english is not my native language and its kind of hard to explain these things ^^

make a two options in a giveaway key and gift btw Who cares whether the key is whether the gift I was glad to get the game the only thing that is important is whether from a legitimate source, such is my opinion

btw promotions = bundle keys mayby look at it this its legaly So I do not know what's the problem

Some thoughts about bundle price:

Let's try to compare to other cases. Steam often has indie bundles at over 90% off on big sales (summer / winter). As I understand it these would show here at full price. Most indie bundles costing $4 or more, such as Indie Royale and "beat the average" versions of bundles (perhaps not including Indie Gala, whose "happy hour" can lower the price significantly), offer discounts which aren't disproportionately different than this.

It's also possible to assume that since it's a bundle its total (speculative) full price is slightly lower than the sum of prices of the games, say 10 times the minimum price. For example Be Mine 2 costs $4 so the package may be worth $40 even though the games in it are worth around $70. This aligns well with Steam discounts and is therefore a good price for that bundle.

$1 bundles offer a much steeper discount, for example Indie Gala 5 offers $70 worth of games for $1. That's somewhat rare, but bundles regularly offer $30 worth or more for $1. This can be solved by ignoring the actual value and just pricing the bundle at $10, following the formula above.

That's for complete bundles, but what about single games from them? A recent Amazon deal offered five games (four of them Steam games) worth $85 total for $7.50. That's a better than 90% discount for the entire bundle. The Steam games from the bundle are allowed on Steam Gifts without a problem and are listed at their full price.

It follows that there shouldn't be a problem to list games at full price if they come from bundles with a reasonable minimum, or are games which are given as a part of a "beat the average" deal.

As before the $1 bundle is the problem, and games which are part of it shouldn't be listed at full price. I'm too tired to provide a good formula right now, but it shouldn't be too difficult to derive, based on the bundle's "full price" and the relative cost of the games.

TL;DR: Use full prices for games in bundles with a reasonable minimum or "beat the average", and a lower one for $1 bundles.

By the way, do the bundle key giveaways get removed also "retroactively", if they slip by the mods (for example by being group/private, and not being reported) and end? Seeing people use 3 copies of the Ironclads collection to $150 (yes, that was a verb) their way into any contributor giveaway they wish makes me a rather sad panda. (Especially considering the fact that they can keep the DRM-free download link, which, at least on moral level, basically equals to piracy, i.e. two people having access to the game for a single payment.)

Since the games being in bundles are not allowed to be submitted (even if they are not keys from the bundle and just regular steam gifts) while the bundles are still live due to confusion, how about disabling them from the drop down menu on Create a Giveaway page while the bundle is out. I realise how that would require lots of bundle monitoring and constant changes to that drop down menu, however it might be less work than the massive bundle key giveaway spam.
After the bundle ends, people would probably submit the keys they have leftover then though. Not sure how to counter that.

Make all bundle games 0 points. Problem solved easily without punishing people, and it encourages giveaways for philanthropy's sake. Of course, some people may have Steam copies of bundle games and lose out on points, but it really isn't a big deal considering the point of the site is to give things away.

maybe 3 different tabs, 1 for regular gifts, one for bundle keys, 1 for both. Or add the option to tag the giveaway as a key

Most of the bundle keys are indie games. so u can create a database for those games as a bundle keys. If u can sync steam inventory similar like steam library, then u can check the gifter's inventory (like u r checking library in current system) If its available, then gifter will get full feedback score, otherwise whatever u want to do means less feedback score or nothing.

Like many said before, making separate entries for games, a bundle key entry and an entry for the rest. That could still be exploited by those who concsiously use bundle keys to up their credits, but should largely reduce the current number of the bundle keys reported.

New section would be best.