It is generally accepted that the majority of PC hardware available now will be able to run PS4 and X720 ports smoothly?

Right now I have over $1,200 saved up for a new build (possibly with an i5 3570k and GTX 670, I'm open to suggestions though), and I don't want it to be totally obsolete in a year. :D So would you guys wait, or just go ahead?

1 decade ago*

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Heh.. My build is still fairly high-end and it was built 4 years ago on a budget of $500. Only thing I've had to swap out was the RAM and thats only because cat hair got in it. Don't worry, you should be fine with the next-gen ports.

1 decade ago
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I'm curious about your specs now lol. I built mine about the same time as yours with a slightly higher budget if I recall...

AMD Athlon II X4 620
4 GB RAM
GeForce 9800 GTX+
XP Pro

I'm still surprised on what I can run on high settings :P

1 decade ago
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I made mine in 2008.
Asus Striker II Formula v2
ASUS GeForce 285 GTX
8Gb RAM 800 Mhz
Intel Q9300 2.55 Ghz
The only game I wasn't able to run so far is Crysis 3.
FarCry 3 runs smooth with 45fps with all settings on Ultra.
Unfortunately I had to change 10 HDDs in those years (mostly - 8 - due to bad firmware - Seagate x(( & 2 WDs - 1 due to bad firmware and one due to power failure). Last one start dying 3 days ago and I am cloning it right now on a WD Caviar Black 1TB SATA3 64MB 7200rpm.
Original configuration had 2x500Gb Barracuda ES2 from the 'fatal' NS series x((((

1 decade ago
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Jesus. How freaking awful are they at making hard drives now?

1 decade ago
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Well, I got those 2 first (I thought getting a 1Tb was a risk back then). First one died 8 months later, 2 days before presenting my degree paper:| (and I was stupid enough not to backup so now I'll remember those 2 days & nights for the rest of my life :D).

I got 2 more, this time 2x500Gb 7200.11 Barracudas and I updated the firmware for all 3 HDDs. A few weeks later I lost another one, one of the new ones, because the firmware I installed, the one Seagate recommended me (actually demanded, if I want to keep my warranty) was badly coded :|. So that's 2.

And since the entire series was soo bad, the retailer was having problems replacing the bad HDDs so I was put on hold.
As a short sort of off topic, back then the company I was working on (IT&C company) was so enthusiastic about the ES2 series that they decided to replace all HDD;s we had :| Imagine the pain when all HDDs died in a few months (more than a 100 :|) due to bad firmware & firmware updates x(( Since then I haven't laid a single finger on a Seagate HDD.

Anyway, shortly after (2 months or so) I finally got my 2 HDD replacements - both certified repaired by Seagate :)) - that again, died in less than a month. That's a total of 4.
As a replacement this time I got 2 WD Caviar Green. I tried to get Barracudas or at least Caviar Black without luck x( So right now I keep those HDDs on external racks.

A year and a half after (now using 1 ES2 and 1 7200.11), while working on my final paper (master, this time - 2 weeks left), the ES2 started to die. I was like, meh screw you b%^%*h, I've got a backup this time. Next morning I noticed the other one dies. [INSERT_SEAGATE_TROLL_FACE_HERE] :| That's a total of 6.

So this time I got 2 x 640 Caviar Black and didn't wait for the replacements. I got them eventually, 1 ES2 and 1 7200.11, both certified repaired. I use the with external rack (anime ftw :D) since I don't trust Seagate to handle important data anymore x(

The ES2 died shortly after and it got replaced with another ES2 x( Got my anime back and it seams to be working now.

And since 2012 I lost the other 2, WD Black. One due to corrupted firmware (most likely caused by a power failure) and the second one started to die 3-4 days ago, after a repeated power flashes and a full failure. I didn't even had the time to unplug the system... So that's 8.

And 2 weeks ago I replaced a Toshiba (with a 1 TB WD Caviar Blue 5400rpm) on my laptop. The old one still works but it replaced some bad sectors so I wanter to be safe. That's 10.

But that's just a part of the story. I actually got most of my system replaced due to...bad firmware x((
1st I got an ASUS GeForce 9800 and Striker II Formula v1. The 9800 and the Formula came factory-overcloacked (it wasn't specified anyware so I didn't know) so the VGA ended up by frying itself and the mobo shortly after I got the system. Lost a Windows license too.

And last year it got stroke by lightning =))) No problems here so far :D

So that's my system - it came from hell :D So I'll probably get a new one next year. Hopefully, I'll get lucky this time :D

1 decade ago
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That's crazy D: I built mine in '09 if I recall and I've had the same HDD the entire time.

1 decade ago
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lol, I had 3 HDDs in total:

  1. bought in 90s along with Pentium 166 - 2 GB
  2. 200X - Seagate 40 GB
  3. 2009 - WD 640 GB

All 3 still work without any problems and we used them a LOT.

1 decade ago
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I have some 12 years old HDDs that work just fine. Actually I still use the with external racks and one of them is on an 10 years old system (with GeForce 3 Ti - and I played F.E.A.R. 1 + both expansions on 1280 on it :D).

1 decade ago
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lol, a week ago I had the same specs you do now, and I played Battlefield 3, Skyrim on medium, and Crysis 2 on medium and low, just upgraded my computer

1 decade ago
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High end 4 years ago for 500? 2nd hand goods? Reused half the parts from another rig? Im curious myself.

1 decade ago
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Hard drive and case were from my old rig. No used parts. I'll post the specs when I'm on it.

1 decade ago
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How did you get a reasonably high end machine for $500, especially four years ago? Do you mean that you recently bought a four year old high end machine for $500?

For a gaming machine, a high-ish end GPU is at least $200 and a high end CPU is close to that. That doesn't leave much room in a $500 budget.

1 decade ago
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In same time as him and for very similar price I bought main components:

  • Intel Dual Core E5200 2.5 GHz @ 3.3 GHz (90$)
  • Radeon HD4850 512 MB (185$)
  • MB: ASUS P5QL PRO (100$)
  • 2 GB Kingston 1066MHz (50$)
  • BeQuiet 400W (80$)
    =~ 505$

As you can see it wasn't high-end, but still very good economic config. I run BF3 on medium/low, Saints Row 3 on very low, but many other games on very high. I'm very satisfied from my PC and surprised that I still can play some new games.

1 decade ago
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What's the rush? Wait and see what the new console's ports are like to make the decision, especially if you're fine with your current system and the games you play.

1 decade ago
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My main thing is I'm running XP which means I'm stuck with DirectX 9.0c. I can't play Sleeping Dogs, and lots of other newer games, on my own PC :P

1 decade ago
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Current specs?

1 decade ago
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XP uses a lot less system resources than vista, 7, 8 and there are not that many good dx 11 exclusive games

1 decade ago
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Can't stick with XP forever

1 decade ago
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ofc we can :D

1 decade ago
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If the OS is what's holding you back, then upgrading that should have been the thing to do. You missed the low cost Windows 8 upgrade, but it may still be worthwhile to buy a new OS. Even DX9 games sometimes run faster on Windows 7 or 8.

Building a new PC is fun, so if you want it go for it, but given your current specs, I think that moving to a modern 64-bit OS and a new mid range graphics card will result in a satisfying gaming system.

1 decade ago
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I saw the Win8 upgrade, but I'm avoiding that OS like the plague.

I don't even think my CPU has 64 bit support, not to mention I don't have enough RAM to make use of a 64 bit OS :P

1 decade ago
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Just get more RAM, you can put it into your new build when you decide to make it so you're not wasting money on your old PC

1 decade ago
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You CPU supports 64-bit, and you have 4GB of RAM, which is a little more than a 32-bit OS will support, so will probably be a little better. In my experience the 64-bit versions just feels smoother.

Even if you don't want 8 (which is okay, although I think most people exaggerate its problems) then 7 will be a good upgrade. You'll get a new OS anyway, so I don't think there's much of a reason to hold off on that particular piece of the puzzle. You'll immediately be able to play DX10 games.

1 decade ago
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I heard ppl saying to hold your money until the next-gen from intel and amd are released. Me myself is also itching to get a beefy laptop this year.

1 decade ago
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If you're going for a laptop with a dGPU (and you shouldn't), then you might as well buy now. GPUs aren't getting refreshed this year and prices are already dropping.

But if you're going for something a little more portable that will use an IGP, then waiting for Haswell or Kaveri isn't a terrible idea, especially if you're hell bent on gaming at resolutions closer to 1080p than 768p.

Like most computer-based decisions, it's about your needs and there's no one blanket answer.

1 decade ago
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I hear the GTX 700 series is suppose to come out soon?

No clue though.

But I'd probably wait unless you see a good deal.

Best time to buy is black Friday.(I wish someone told me this. ;_;)

1 decade ago
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Kepler and Southern Islands are staying here for 2013. Check the rumors, they have been pretty consistent about it.

1 decade ago
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You can always hold off and wait for something better. They have something coming out every month for enthusiasts. :/

1 decade ago
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With $1200 you could easily get an I7 and whatever the top Geforce is atm.

1 decade ago
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The top Geforce is $999 I think :P

1 decade ago
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LOL, ok, well maybe not the top Geforce.

Probably a $300ish Ti Geforce then.

1 decade ago
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i7 is 300, top "geforce", I think you mean nvidia, is 1k. Ya already blew the entire budget and still need case, psu, mobo, ram, optical drive, HDD/SSD and so on.

1200 about right for a completely new build with case unless buying 2nd hand.

1 decade ago
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If you get an "i7", you're wasting your money. Learn a little about CPUs and don't let Intel ram marketing terms like "i7" and "i5" down your throat. You're not a filthy gay slut, stop acting like one.

1 decade ago
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If I find a job for summer I will get an upgrade and I might go for i7. 8 real cores would be much more nice, but HT might help out considering new architecture for PS4.

1 decade ago
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i7 isn't the best choice for gaming. You're better off getting an i5 and putting the extra money into a better video card. i7 is better for things like video editing/encoding.

1 decade ago
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I agree here. A CPU does not give much gaming performance, no matter how powerful it is. A graphics card will give you many times more performance per dollar.

Don't bother with anything more than 4 cores unless the game you're playing says it can use more than four cores. There are currently no games that do, and most games don't even use three cores.

Look for the Turbo Boost feature on a multicore CPU. What this does is it OCs the cores that are currently in use to make proper usage of the thermal ceiling you have. Basically it's a limited version of what manual overclockers are doing. A 3.4GHz multicore running a single-core game can get 3.8-4.2GHz from Turbo Boost, depending on what the specs on the box state and depending on how good your cooling unit is.

1 decade ago
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Battlefield 3 can utilize up to 8 threads so it does get a small boost from hyper-threading. Some more CPU-bound games like Skyrim do utilize 4 physical cores but not the 4 logical (hyper-threaded) cores. More games going forward, particularly after the PS4 and Xbox "3" are released will utilize more threads, giving the i7 an advantage over an i5. In general though, it is still true that if your budget is limited it is better to dedicate more money to the GPU rather than the CPU if the primary purpose of the machine is gaming.

1 decade ago
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Depends on what you think means "obsolete". To some people that means if it isnt the newest and greatest then its older then dirt, to others, if it gets the job done then its great.

Id hold off a few more months unless you are REALLY itching for an upgrade. Around the new school year a lot of PC parts go on discount, and any dramatic new parts will come out. In the PC world, unless you plan to spend 1200 every year to keep "current" its best to shoot for a rig that can last you 3-4 years. i5+670 should do it. And as others have said, something new is always just around the corner.

1 decade ago
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Wait a couple months for Haswell.
Most computers with quad-core will supposedly handle the new console ports when they come out.

1 decade ago
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You could always save a bit more and just future proof as opposed to waiting it out.

I just don't know if sticking with windows xp is a pain for you or not.

1 decade ago
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Futureproofing is a misleading concept. You won't have to upgrade again as soon, but you will have spent a lot more money over time if you're talking about CPU and GPU.

RAM performance doesn't increase much over the course of 2-3 years, but cost decreases rather quickly. 1600 RAM was pretty cheap in 2008, and is 1/3 the price for the same mid-range RAM. The best RAM won't give much of a performance boost. The highest performing RAM might only improve your FPS by 2 at best for the cost of a midpriced high-end video card.

For storage, performance increases fast, making futureproofing even less cost effective. A year from now, SSD will be even higher quality than today, just as today's are a lot better than last year.

CPUs seem to increase in performance at a slower rate, and the price doesn't decrease very quickly for midrange processors which are still overkill for today's greatest games. If anything can be futureproofed, only CPUs should be considered.

And don't even talk about PSU or cases. I'm using a mid-tower case from 1998 and an 850w PSU from 2005.

1 decade ago
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I guess I was sort of thinking of cost as a secondary factor as opposed to what you stated.

But yeah, you could definitely get more bang for $1200 in a year's time than now. xP

1 decade ago
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You can definitely get away with using an older OS if you're careful about security, but I'd still go with Windows 8 if you can afford it. Benchmarks are showing improved performance, as long as you have W8 drivers.

1 decade ago
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It's more complicated than that. You need to know about complciated tech release schedules. DDR4 will be out in a few years and it will cost a pretty penny. Intel is rumored to potentially starve dGPUs of bandwidth in their future chipsets.

I'm not here saying that you're right or wrong, but that the problem is a lot more complicated than you're making it.

1 decade ago
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If you have you budget. Buy now. Why? Sitting on the fence leads to splinters in your arse about everything you missed out on in the meantime.

P.S.: Future proofing is impossible. The future is always a new platform.

1 decade ago
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Hold off on upgrading until you need the performance boost. You can spend 200 today for a boost you don't yet need, or spend 200 in six months for greater performance than you would have gotten from today's offerings. Performance always gets cheaper as time goes on, so don't buy performance that you won't benefit from.

If you're still on a GTX 480 or a Radon HD 5770, upgrade if the games you're playing aren't running smoothly. Otherwise, wait more.

1 decade ago
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I am still on a 460/Q6600(OC'd a bit)/8gb Ram and most games run perfect on High/Max.

I feel like until something really demanding hits most of us will be fine, I mean the only game that actually made me put it on Medium to stay above 30fps was Crysis 3 so far.

1 decade ago
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You're closing in on you better upgrade status really fast, then. High Performance adoption rates drive the target system requirements that game creators aim for, and Steam has that information.

You can get a great GTX 660 for under 250 USD. They'll only get cheaper, so keep an eye on them. I expect to see another 7850 or 660 sale in the next few months. If you need one today you can pick up a GTX 650 Ti OC Windforce 1GB for about 120 to 150 USD. Memory width isn't much concern if you have enough VRAM to make swapping textures to/from HDD unnecessary. 1080p AAx4 shouldn't fill 1GB VRAM.

1 decade ago
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The 660 does perform really well for the money. I built a rig for my sister with it and an i5 3570k, it runs every game on max at 1600x900 (She cheaped out on the monitor for now).

1 decade ago
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Honestly until I can no longer player most games at 30fps on medium on my 1680x1050 screen I probably won't upgrade, I don't see the new consoles really making me upgrade all that fast. When I do upgrade it will probably be a whole new build when I have the cash, truth is with the 460 and QQ600 overclocked to 3.2ghz I still max most games with AAx4, worst case I have to run some on high with maybe shadows dropped or whatever, Crysis 3 is the single game to make me drop to Medium and honestly are we going to see most console games(Ports) really go beyond that graphical level(Or even hit it) in the next 2-3 years? Maybe....but I kinda doubt it.

1 decade ago
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I'd hold off for now and wait untill Haswell is released as the new Intel Core i5-4750 will be better, cheaper, and more efficient.

A dual core cpu is still capable of running most games since most games use 1 or 2 cores and almost all games use 3 cores or less. Only Crysis 2, Crysis 3, GTA IV, and Hard Reset fully utilize 4 cores.

For cpu intensive games, seeing the 8 interger core AMD FX-8350 gaining momentum against the 4 core Intel in Crysis 3, is a cause for concern as next-gen console ports may be optimized for 8 core AMD processors. Intel has been holding off on releasing a mainstream 6 core processor which is due in 2015.

1 decade ago
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Haswell is literally all the wait that is needed this year.
A Geforce 660ti, 16GB RAM, and i5-2500k is going to last me for several years. Having more GHz loses effect very quickly with my amount of overclock and most games run over 100fps.

1 decade ago
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Haswell is worth the wait since it is comming out soon

nVIDIA GeForce 660 Ti > nVIDIA GeForce 660 = AMD HD 7850 = PS4 = your gpu should be fine

Intel i5-2500k < or = or > AMD 8 Core cpu = ???? or uncertainty. Despite PS4's 1.6 GHz handicap it still has 8 cores capable of 1.84 Tflops and if console port games are optimized to use all 8 cores a 4 core proccessor may become a bottleneck for cpu intensive such as Crysis 4 and GTA V

1 decade ago
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i7 3770k @ 4.2ghz
gtx 680 2gb oc
8gb ram ddr3 1600mhz

1920x1080 @ 120hz

yeah, I think I'm ready

1 decade ago
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The funny thing is that most workloads don't even benefit from cute little CPU overclocks, not anymore anyways. Dial your CPU back and use the thermal headroom to overclock your GPU.

1 decade ago
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I play games that are CPU heavy, what makes you think there's no benefit? Heck I even play games that require a faster clock speed to even get the actual framerate I desire (unfortunately it's because the game is coded in LUA)

Also, from graph viewing, I'm using less volts OCed compared to what I was using at stock clock, because processors are programmed for "the worst possible tested" so they are generally over volting assuming you're CPU doesn't match the worst one they've tested. :)

And when idle my cpu downclocks to 1.6ghz~ it only clocks up to 4.2 when an application begins to run. Even then with my aftermarket cooler temperatures are in good ranges; and I don't think I have anything that even utilizes 100% cpu load besides a stress test so the temperatures are even lower than the safe 100% temps (which is where higher clock speed comes into play, since most apps won't use all the cores, you need a faster clock speed to get desired results).

1 decade ago
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currently I mostly just need to upgrade my video card and I'll be in good shape for the next few years easily since I have plenty of ram and a decent processor. I just need to find a card that'll fit and hopefully work with my current power supply so I don't have to change anything else out as well.

to answer the question if you think you can wait, just do it since with the speed of technology being the way it is unless there is a dire reason to do an upgrade there will always be something far more capable just around the corner

1 decade ago
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AMD plans to release the 8xxx line this year at an unknown date. I'm waiting for this, planning to buy a used late model 79xx when the newbies with too much money replace their cards.

There is also AMD's processor plans. Vishera will still be their primary. The only real changes are in APUs. They will replace their current top-end APU, the FM2 Trinity Piledriver core, with the Richland, which is still built with Piledriver.

On the Intel front, Intel spent 2011 and 2012 investing in new manufacturing plants which will increase production, which also lowers prices a little. They continue to reduce the power requirements of their processors and the chipsets they supply to motherboard manufacturers. Ivy Bridge will become cheaper as production improves, and those who decide Sandy Bridge is sufficient will save even more money.

We'll see more Intel boxes on the shelves, with their top-end products being less scarce. Those that can afford these CPUs won't have to settle for the cheaper options, but the cheaper options will also be more accessible.

Nvidia has no plans for 2013 to release any new product lines outside of the 700 series. Nvidia has a habit of releasing a very overpowered card at the end of each line, and the Titan does not seem to be this line's ender since it's [still using the 670 tech.] A single 690 or a 7990 can still beat a Titan. If you want to stay with Nvidia, you may have a bit of a wait. I suspect they'll wait until after testers haves shown us what AMD's next line can do.

sources
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If you really need to build your system in the next 2-6 months, here are my suggestions.
I would pick up an Intel processor once the current i7 offerings are devalued by Intel's new items. Pair it with the best 79xx once AMD's new 8xxx line devalues the previous generation. It will be a while before an 8xxx line card beats the 79xx cards. While 8GB of RAM is enough today, I suggest picking up 16GB as you can afford to add more RAM since grouped RAM doesn't offer a detectable difference unless you're benchmarking. Don't get an SSD until you're ready to put the system together unless you see a sale at a high discount. I'd aim for a 120GB and put your OS and your most frequently played 2-3 games on it. Put everything else on a bunch of 2TB SATA III storage drives. For cheap long-term storage, do note that a USB 2.0 interface is still more than fast enough to watch Blu-Ray rips if that's what you're into, so consider external portable drives.

If you can, wait until Nvidia's 2014 releases. Great Intel processors will be affordable, but AMD might have some surprises which will change the situation once again.

Also note that Nvidia has approached Intel, asking for a manufacturing partnership. This would likely improve performance between Intel and Nvidia's processors to the point that you will always want to pair them. It would also somewhat lower the price on both CPU and GPU ends, just as AMD's purchase of ATI further reduced the price of AMD CPUs and ATI (now AMD) GPUs.

1 decade ago
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Listen to this man.

1 decade ago
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Want to game now? Buy now, the projection of specs on the new systems probably won't surpass a Nvidia 660 the way its looking, not that its a bad thing, thats still a lot of power if you ask me. A 670 will play everything great for at least a couple years paired with an i5.

I would never wait, mainly because its always advancing.

1 decade ago
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The 660 is definitely a powerful card.
I feel like by the time something you're waiting for comes around, there's some other advancement you might as well wait for. Like people are saying to wait for the Haswell architecture, which makes sense, but they've already announced its successor.

1 decade ago
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Technology is always moving at a crazy pace, good news is even buying a build now will most likely put you ahead of next gen consoles, but if you don't need it or have a decent rig you could wait for Haswell, but I would personally not wait if I had no way to play current games. Its highly doubtful the new consoles will come near the i5/670 combo thats for sure.

1 decade ago
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The only reason id wait for the new gen to come out, is for the last gen to dip in price and then again during on of the PC sales seasons. Xmas/school/college season.

1 decade ago
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When Haswell comes out, I expect Ivy Bridge to reduce in price somewhat. Sandy did that when Ivy was released, because fewer people were willing to buy Sandy. It wasn't a major reduction, but it's still nice if you only need an Ivy chip and you can wait a bit.

1 decade ago
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You can go ahead and not worry about it too much, u'll be fine to run next gen games and that means your PC will be good for a long time. Maybe like up until 2020 when it's time for a PS5. Also, seeing how Xbox and PS4 will be using AMD 8-core CPU's, game developers will be forced to work on better multi-threading and AMD CPU's just might become much better than Intel.

1 decade ago
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I'm waiting because my PC can already play anything that comes out. Do you have a PC now? I can't answer your question without context. It's pointless to buy new hardware if your current hardware plays current games in a way that doesn't frustrate you.

1 decade ago
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It's A Go!

1 decade ago
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I would wait if your PC isn't dead. It's next-PC gen that will be safe to use for a longer time (at least if you'll look at this-gen situation: consoles have something around GeForce 7900, and now-a-days games require at least GeForce 9xxx as minimum), so it's probably GeForce 7xx (or Radeon 8xxx) that will be safe card to get to be safe for few years.

And when those next-gen parts get released, prices of what you want to get now will go down, so you'll get better PC, or you'll be able to get what you want now cheaper.

1 decade ago
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I bought my new computer (build it myself, first computer I ever built myself...) for 8 months ago? Maybe a year... I barely remember when it was. Anywho, I bought about the cheapest I could get that could run what I would want to play + more... I'm quite sure I can play almost every game on the market right now on low-med with decent FPS (should be noted that I have a computer screen that can't handle more then VGA... Really old screen). I will wait atleast 3 years from now until I buy a new one, maybe 2 if I feel like I need it by then. I suppose you have higher demands and play much more demanding games then I do, but I would wait in your case aswell..

1 decade ago
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These ports probably won't be much more resource demanding as ports that are coming out right now. From leaked information there's actually nothing special about PS4 and X720 because most gaming PC's have more power inside them already. And since these consoles won't come out until Autumn probably then there will already be GTX7xx series graphics cards from nVidia and next series from AMD too. I think you can start buying parts slowly but you can wait too if you are not in a hurry.

1 decade ago
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Crytek has stated that its going to be a lot easier on devs to port games and vice versa. Source

1 decade ago
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Well, if you could wait just a few months, the new intel Haswell range and the AMD 8000 series are both due to come out, so you might be able to get some brand new parts for the same price as what you are paying for now, or a lower price on some of the parts from the previous gens, such as an ivy bridge i7 or a hd 7950.

1 decade ago
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After reading all this, it's hard to decide between waiting on Haswell and building next payday :P

Microcenter has i7 3770k's for $230 (only $40 more than the 3570k). o.o I'm extremely tempted to go down there today and walk out with one, and maybe a sexy case.

1 decade ago
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I'd wait for the new consoles to come out and see how the games will perform THEN.
Also Xmas is usually the best period of the year to buy, so yes, I'd wait. :)

1 decade ago
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No way am I waiting 9 months. :D

1 decade ago
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In this case you can safely go ahead and buy.
Intel's new CPUs perform a little better, but it won't make a difference in games. I also don't think there's any new interesting GPU (compared to a GTX670) coming out soon.
Unless you had the will to wait for Xmas sales, I don't see a good reason to wait any longer. :)

1 decade ago
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I'm saving money for a gaming pc, but i'm still not sure on when is the right time to do that. Maybe in two years?

1 decade ago
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Closed 1 decade ago by mechanicalbride.