Atheism is the best?
I was born in USSR, and your view of “atheism as freedom” looks naive. When it gets elevated to state ideology, it causes dictatorship and mass murder (the official term we were taught was “warring atheist”, i.e. one who can't tolerate any other viewpoints, these guys were heroes for us little Lenin-followers). As I understand, if a person has no God above them, they feel they can do anything they want — and such power corrupts.
I am really glad there are people who hasn't experienced it. Here's a bump for that! :D
Comment has been collapsed.
Atheism doesn't cause any of this. You are referring to Communism and also corrupting power is the point, power corrupts not atheism.
"if a person has no God above them, they feel they can do anything they want "
no, I don't think you will find any atheists today saying "we can do violence" and it is just fine.
Plus Atheism is not about not tolerating other viewpoints.
In the US we experience aggressive repression from religious groups and threats of violence by conservative leaders. Not as bad as other countries right how like Saudi Arabian government actually killing atheists just for being.
Thanks for you post. Very interesting hearing others viewpoints.
Comment has been collapsed.
no, I don't think you will find any atheists today saying "we can do violence" and it is just fine.
North Korea, at least. Used to be Cuba, but it has thawed recently. East Germany, which has thankfully being rejoined. Russia is going back to this as we speak (though their version of atheism is called Orthodoxy, which is closer to culture than religion — they still praise Stalin, Lenin and find a way to justify concentration camps),
It seems impossible to separate Communism and Atheism, to be honest. They may be so tightly bound that it is hard to have one without the other — no examples I can think of, on country level. On personal level, of course, they can be divided by a truly thinking individual. I have a few thoughtful atheist friends whom I really respect. Those guys dig deep! But they stand out from the crowd of people who simply don't care to think what they believe (and “there is no God” is obviously a faith statement, since it can't be proven).
Comment has been collapsed.
"It seems impossible to separate Communism and Atheism, to be honest."
this is a strange statement to me, but I am in the US and don't know anyone from Russia. Only met a few and had brief conversations.
I wish I could meet some of these people and interview them. I am very curious if, and how hard line these atheist you know are.
Wiki states Russian Orthodoxy is a Christian religion. Didn't they have Pussy Riot put in prison for breaking their church rules?
Isn't Putin passing religious laws to make the church happy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church
"people who simply don't care to think what they believe"
sadly, i think this applies to too many people.
thanks again, very interesting.
Comment has been collapsed.
It seems impossible to separate Communism and Atheism, to be honest.
guy is indeed right. atheism is a foundation of marxist theory, and was made statal religion starting with leninism (resulting in public religious practice being abolished, "witch hunt", criminalization of believers, indoctrination of the atheist doctrine, and so on. in one word: antitheism, the latest stage of atheism).
Comment has been collapsed.
i disagree. They added atheism to their political ideology because they saw religion as a threat. And religion is a treat in some ways to ruling because if they church leaders call for a rebellion then they have problems. But Communists found out that giving the ruling church what they wanted would get the church to support anything the government wanted. So now communism is happy with religion.
Same goes for Capitalism, early on they were very worried about religion, but now most religions followers are happy with capitalism.
Comment has been collapsed.
they would be happy with it if they would be in control of it... eroding its values and its weight in a society (same thing happened with orthodoxy under lenin guidance). atheism is inehernt to marxism as religion tend to raise the human being as something above itself. an unacceptable factor for the marxist revolution, where all men and women alike are "living cogs" in the industrial system, a machine assigned to another machine.
ironically capitalism, as julius evola putted it, in its current stage has become as subversive and pernicious as marxisms, where everything is to be sacrified upon the altar of "free market" to maximize the income.
Comment has been collapsed.
ironically capitalism, as julius evola putted it, in its current stage has become as subversive and pernicious as marxisms, where everything is to be sacrified upon the altar of "free market" to maximize the income.
yes because free-market is an illusion.
Comment has been collapsed.
Connection between Communism and Atheism deserves more thought. Communism by itself doesn't enforce any opinion of God (or His absence), it is just a mandate to fully controlled economics to ensure complete equality (of those who work and those who don't, as it happened).
If Communism is just that, an economical concept, then it should have no problems with protestant Christians, especially due to the so-called “protestant work ethics” — they are good workers, uncomplaining, doing high-quality work whether overseen or not, since the Bible commands them to “anything you do, do it as unto the Lord”, and not for your earthly boss (which may tick some bosses' egos, though :D). So I can't really comprehend Lenin's, Stalin's and the Party's rationale to persecute and prosecute Christians in USSR, imprisoning and executing them. Perhaps it was due to the “agent of the West” scare, but it doesn't seem to make sense.
Perhaps I can't expect to ever understand reasoning of a bloody regime, but I am still curious :)
Following this logic, though, it would seem that when the Atheism is elected as the state ideology — then the persecutions start, since Atheism does dictate an attitude towards God, as opposed to Communism.
Another possible explanation, as you wrote below, is if they saw religion as a threat. This would be possible when Communism switches to “dictatorship” mode (which, according to history, seems inevitable), and it is an interesting theory, but it doesn't explain why Orthodoxy, a much more structurally organized religion, was allowed to continue*, but multiple individual protestant churches, which don't really have a “leader”, were being eliminated with unhealthy vigour.
sadly, i think this applies to too many people.
Ain't that the truth :)
- — even though it had its share of persecutions, now largely forgotten as they seem to adorn their temples with Stalin's icons, but that has to be a politically-triggered aberration, as they are tightly coupled with the state now, as you correctly state above
Comment has been collapsed.
´´though their version of atheism is called Orthodoxy´´
You have to love these little Ukrainian nazis. They are so funny sometimes.
Comment has been collapsed.
I do apologize. I know some Orthodox believers whom I trust to be sincere in their faith. I am (very) hesitant to trust the Orthodox church as an institution, but it is not my place to judge it, really, as it still brings many people to God. I think I understand why you'd be offended, and for that I am sorry.
Comment has been collapsed.
Atheism doesn't cause any of this. You are referring to Communism and also corrupting power is the point, power corrupts not atheism.
You can also say this for religious violence. It's the corrupt power using religion as excuse. So the crusades, witch burnings, Muslim terrorism etc. is all just corrupt power misusing religion.
I don't think you will find any atheists today saying "we can do violence" and it is just fine.
Plus Atheism is not about not tolerating other viewpoints.
Neither is Catholic christianism or most other religions.
You are just making excuses for Atheism and generalizing radical part of religions to all religions.
Also as a Catholic I find most of your "benefits" bullshit.
Comment has been collapsed.
as a catholic, can i ask you what do you think about this shill of a pope?
Comment has been collapsed.
(sorry, I'm not a native english speaker) Ok, I hope you won't mind me telling my point of view and personal experience with christianity. I have been borned and raised in a christian familly and no one ever told me that science or any type/genre of art is bad (only exception being my fahter with gory films when I was a kid, but that's a pretty normal thing in my opinion). I started to watch science channels on TV a little while after learning to read, (not that I was able to understand too much at the time, but it seemed really interesting and cool anyway), and most of the times my parents were watching with me, explaining some of the words that I didn't understand. I was never forced to go to church, still doing it once a year or so because in my opinion it's a good place to think about stuff and the architecture and decorations are also really nice, but I don't really know what special grooming, clothing, payments and websites you are talking about. No christian ever told me I have to hate someone for their religion or lack of one. Yes, religion was used as an excuse for war many times, but that's what the human race does with everything that ever existed, I mean this shouldn't require any example, just think about any sort of bomb and any sort of advanced weapon, those were all created by smart people and used for the single purpose of killing. You will also find a**holes on every side, regardless of religion, nationallity, age, gender or any other factor.Also I really don't care if God is real or not, the basic message of most religions is to be a nice person with everyone, especially with your parents and don't do stuff like stealling/killing/other obvious crimes. You might say that you don't need religion for this, and that is true, but just look at how many people find joy in others suffering, there would deffinetly be no crimes, not even bullying if everyone would think that they would get ethernal suffering if they missbeheaved.
This being said, I do consider myself a christian, even if I won't try to convince others to believe in God, even if I don't go to church, and especially even if I enjoy stuff like rock music, horror movies and anime. To be honest the only religious thing that I do all the time is saying a preier every day before going to sleep, but for me that's aslo a way to relief stress.
(also, maybe a biased opinion, but books based on religions are really nice pieces of literature from my experience, everything from religions to mithology)
Comment has been collapsed.
"Being more open because a religion isn’t trying to make you fearful" Oh don't worry, xenophobia, racism, and bigotry like that is totally within our grasps regardless.
Plus I'm not religious but I'm a bit superstitious, just a bit. It's simply a bit fun or a sort of self-comfort to believe in a few things, like seeing four leaf clovers as lucky. I read somewhere that even the most irreligious Irish still refuse to venture into forests after dark because of fairies. Even if there aren't fairies, why the hell would you go into the woods at night? You trying to star in a real-life horror film?
Comment has been collapsed.
Seeing fairies sounds like fun. Let's go into the forest. I have been in the forest at night, it's called camping. :)
Comment has been collapsed.
Irish fairies are the kind that would steal your child and punish you for wanting it back, probably cast a spell to make you think you were a wolf and your lover was a rabbit, and then send a sickness upon your cows. Just because they can.
Comment has been collapsed.
Say "hell yes, i am an atheist", is not a contradiction?
Comment has been collapsed.
are you really asking?
Hell is a word used to emphasize.
Atheists do not believe in the "spiritual realm of evil" called Hell.
Comment has been collapsed.
More than a serius question, is a joke.
i mean, is the same Irony when an atheist is surprised and exclaims "oh my god" 😆
Comment has been collapsed.
Sorry, English is not my mother tongue.
I tray to say, Why atheists say "Oh my God" or "Jesus Christ" etc. as 'swear words' if they do not believe in Him?
But never mind, the answer is the same as the last question. 😀
Comment has been collapsed.
Because it is common culturally. They learn from people around them, but just an expression.
Comment has been collapsed.
Not very nice to say. Also the nice Christian says you are not a real Christian for say such things.
Statements like that make you sound like a Religious Extremist.
Comment has been collapsed.
iirc that's what christ teaching imply? for the sinner (=everyone of us) to not believe is the beginning of the end.
funny tho that among all the religions out there you put it under a christian perspective...
Comment has been collapsed.
I was raised in a Christian family so I know that better than other religions.
Comment has been collapsed.
Not sure a single item on your list would apply to any of the religious people I've ever known, to be honest...
On the one hand, meh, whatever, if you want to throw them on your list regardless that's your prerogative - but on the other, denigrating others based on the over-simplified stereotypes you assume they must conform to isn't exactly a healthy attitude to cultivate in life.
Alternatively, if you want to embrace it, you really should go all out and include:
17 - Don't have to perform sacred dances when the sky goes dark to summon back the light
18 - Don't have to sacrifice your kids when the crops don't come in
19 - Don't have to eat the heart of your enemy to claim his strength
Comment has been collapsed.
Those are kind of old. My list is current.
Kind of a false equivalence.
Comment has been collapsed.
I imagined it obvious that was precisely my point. Your list isn't remotely current, it doesn't apply to anybody I've ever known, and I've known thousands of religious people. You're denouncing a strawman. Which reminds me of another item you could add...
Comment has been collapsed.
dude, you are reading into what I wrote what is not there. and just because you don't know anyone like that, doesn't make it incorrect. there are 7 billion people on this planet. i know lots of people like this. and I have read about them and seen news stories about them.
you have your experience and I have mine.
you could read about it to learn more. open your mind.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm not attacking your perspective by responding to your posts, but unconscious prejudice (especially when held against an entire race, political affiliation, or religion) is such a profoundly destructive thing - it has to be addressed.
From your responses across the thread it's clear you didn't create this post intending to troll or upset anybody, but it's impossible to read your post and not come away with the impression that you judge religious people on the basis of the extremely broad stereotypes you list.
I can't even see you acknowledging merely that your list might not apply to all religious people - when in fact, as I and many others have pointed out, it only applies to a tiny percentage.
I'd just encourage you to follow your own advice - open your mind.
Comment has been collapsed.
my list is about being atheist and not having to worry about those things. Being free from them. But if you want to reverse it like you want to do. still...
I did not say anywhere that every religious person meets all or most of the items on my list. but items do apply to some religious people. i am sure there are some religious people that only a few apply, and some many applies too, and some that most apply.
obviously all have a leader, you are no disputing that, right? there are clearly people that go to church, it is a religion! and there are clearly religions the require going on a holy site visit, Muslims are an example, it's called Hajj. Clearly many religions require certain grooming like a man must have a beard. Most churches require payment to them. ie Mormons require 10%. There are churches that preach hate, like the Westboro Baptist Church that send people on to the streets with signs stating god hates gays. Their bloody web site for the church has hate in the name. i could go on and on.
I am not sure how you don't know these things, as I said, you can look these things up. it is all common knowledge.
Comment has been collapsed.
It's not a case of "reversing" anything - a list of someone's perceived benefits of being a member of a particular group inherently also reflects their perception of people outside that group.
If, for example, I were to say a benefit of being American was the freedom to wave a flag whenever I wished, it would automatically convey that I believed this to be unique to being American, or at the very least noteworthy. If the overwhelming majority of people anywhere in the world have the freedom to wave a flag whenever they want, my including it in the list would either be completely meaningless, or reflect that my understanding of people outside my bubble was largely based on stereotypes or ignorance.
To cite Westboro Baptist as proof that your perspective is accurate is equivalent to using Hitler as evidence that all vegetarians are evil. The majority of people alive today are theists, and the overwhelming majority are never encouraged to hate anyone. The predominant tenet of Christianity (which much of your post seems to focus on) is "the golden rule" - to treat everyone else as you would wish to be treated. Whatever your attitude on religion, it is hard to pretend this is an objectionable philosophy.
Comment has been collapsed.
Clearly you don't want to honestly read and understand what i wrote. so...
Comment has been collapsed.
Every person believes in something. It could be principles, morals, world model built on own experience, but it is ultimately own point of view, own religion. Something not as 'factual' as laws of physics, but complex, abstract construct in consciousness, conditioned on certain knowledge. Is it better than some default religion? For person who dares to think on their own - yes, and "own religion" inevitably will grow. Otherwise all these self-proclaimed atheists are just ignorant mob, nowadays even without any culture. They don't want to follow any guidance - but they often don't have anything own to follow. They don't need to spent time on religious things - great - but they don't study either. There are a lot of such people who could better be god-fearing and 'forcefully' kind, if reason can not govern their morals and decisions, especially towards others.
Can believe in science, no one telling you not to believe in it.
There is a few generations of people who do exactly this - believe in science, in similar manner as believing in literally anything. Not ultimately caring to understand the nature of the world, they believe in anything if "by scientific results" is added. This cancer grew to such an extent that such people are teaching. Generations of "scientists" grow who write senseless texts, not scientific papers; not understanding what science is.
It is perfectly possible that if AI will be successfully developed and used to help and then automatize everything possible, so that human could only "consume", humanity could degrade in generation into flock, commanded by old AIs, not being able to do any science themselves. This is the current direction, because people don't change for better, only consume. Then religions of Machine Spirit and Technosatan can bloom again
Comment has been collapsed.
Thanks for the train.
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
-- Isaac Asimov
Comment has been collapsed.
I think the complete denial of a higher force is just as silly as the absolute acceptance of one.
Comment has been collapsed.
I am not saying I dislike religious people. I would like religious people to stop trying to shove their religion on everyone else
.
And let go of your superstitions and fears!
Just pointing out the irony there.
Comment has been collapsed.
where is the irony? do you know the definition of irony? Those statements are not mutually exclusive.
Comment has been collapsed.
stop trying to shove their religion on everyone else
If anything, you're the one shoving your beliefs in faces (with this thread) while asking others to not do the same.
shrug
Comment has been collapsed.
i was very clear. I wrote, law. stop trying to pass religious laws. why are you trying to take my words out of context?
also, other religious people of different faiths don't like the majority in-power religion passing religious laws too.
this post is not even close to shoving any belief, come on, you can't believe that. there is a huge difference between sharing online ideas and people going into government and passing radical laws forcing others that don't believe there values. ie. separation of church and state.
also no requirement to read this. just move on.
Comment has been collapsed.
I never said I disagreed with you (about law)
However, you prefaced your "premise" with "What are the benefits of being an atheist?" and followed it with broad sweeping generalizations about religion.
You can't really expect people to believe this thread is only about law when you preface it with those other things.
Comment has been collapsed.
I call it as I see it. I'm not the only one who's seen it, either, judging by other comments in the thread.
I might suggest that, if your purpose was in fact about religion's effect on law, you make that the focus of your OP rather than making a list of "100 reasons why atheism is great". The way it's presented now, your "point" comes off as a secondary concern.
Comment has been collapsed.
my post it is about Atheism. But of course we are concerned with separation of church and state too.
you still didn't say where I generalized.
Comment has been collapsed.
my post it is about Atheism.
Then I didn't take anything out of context. Be gone shoving your atheism in my face with your threads. ;)
Your entire list is generalization.
Comment has been collapsed.
the list is my list of benefits. no generalizations. it's a list of benefits.
seems like you are reading it and thinking it all applies to you. if something doesn't apply to you then don't worry about it.
you are reading more into it that what is written.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm not religious (nor am I atheist).
None of it applies to me.
I'm just stating my opinion on the thread as it's presented.
Comment has been collapsed.
So you believe in a god but are not religious? I am curious as to what you mean by this, if you don't mind telling me.
Comment has been collapsed.
Agnostic.
Edit: and no, it doesn't mean I believe in anything.
Comment has been collapsed.
If you don't have a positive belief in a god or gods, you are an Atheist.
An Agnostic Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods, but acknowledges that it is possible that a god or gods could exist. I would guess that this is what you are (as are most Atheists).
At least this is the current commonly used definition.
Comment has been collapsed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
I'm none of those 4, by the way. I am on the line between two of them.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, a Theist is someone who believes that a god or gods exist. An Atheist is someone who lacks belief in a god or gods.
They are binary, you're either one or the other.
So if you are not a Theist (believe a god or gods exist), you are an Atheist.
If you say "I don't know if there is a god or not", then you are an Atheist, because you don't have a positive belief in a god.
Atheism does not mean that you know for sure there is no god, it does not even mean that you believe there is no god. It means that you lack a belief in a god.
Believing no god exists and lacking belief in a god are not the same thing. One is a belief, the other is a lack of belief.
Atheism is not a religion, in fact you can be an Atheist and believe in a religion. For instance, many Buddhists are also Atheists. as they do not believe in a god.
Comment has been collapsed.
What I believe or don't believe is really none of your business. and not a discussion I wish to have on the internet with random strangers.
Feel free to "label" me however you like.
Comment has been collapsed.
I wasn't trying to label you, just clarify what you said in your post about not being religious but not being an Atheist, since it did not make sense to me based on my understanding of what religion and Atheism mean. If you are not an Atheist, then you believe in a god, so I was just curious as to what you meant by believing in a god but not being religious.
If you minded then you didn't need to respond. I didn't mean to hit a nerve with you and I am sorry if you somehow got offended.
Comment has been collapsed.
Not offended at all. I'm just very blunt (and dislike typing walls to explain myself).
I simply don't wish to discuss my personal beliefs on the internet with strangers, particularly so because they have absolutely nothing to do with my initial comment.
Comment has been collapsed.
Tzaar, um, you have been discussing it on this thread. but ok. ;)
Comment has been collapsed.
Incorrect. I said I'm agnostic and that's about all I've said.
If you believe me saying I'm agnostic explains everything I believe/don't, fine - but it doesn't.
Now run along and play devil's advocate elsewhere.
Comment has been collapsed.
i am not saying anything about what you discussed or whether you are one way or another. but you have been discussing stuff on this thread. so I found your statement funny, that is all. :P
Comment has been collapsed.
You can still be a Theist and be Agnostic, But I understand that when most people say they are Agnostic they mean Agnostic Atheist.
I'm was not trying to label you, I was just trying understand what you believe.
Saying you are Agnostic (or Atheist) certainly does not explain everything else you believe or don't believe. I don't think anyone here is saying that.
Religion tends to encompass a whole set of beliefs. Atheism/Agnosticism only deals with one subject, whether you believe in a god or not. Everything else is something separate.
You can be an Atheist and not accept evolution (but most do), you can be an Atheist and believe in angels or ghosts or Santa Claus (most don't).
If someone claims they are an Atheist, the only thing that statement tells you about them (assuming they, themselves, understand what the word means) is that they lack a belief in a god or gods.
Comment has been collapsed.
Happy End of Summer! Plus…
Some people seem scared of Atheism.
Atheism just means:
A = without
Theism = Belief in a god
What are the benefits of being an atheist?
Religion relies on fear to keep you in line.
Chris Hedges has written about this. He went to seminary school and is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist.
I suppose less fearful and more open people gravitate to Atheism.
Christopher Hitchens was an interesting author you might want to check out.
What I am writing here is just my perspective. Not mean to hurt anyone's feelings.
I am not saying I dislike religious people. I would like religious people to stop trying to shove their religion on everyone else; I mean, making laws. Stop making laws based on your religion, please. ie. Separation of Church and State! And let go of your superstitions and fears!
Ticket
If you are on my black list and want to enter, please post asking for removal.
Plus for group members, just in case you missed the announcement. There is a group train.
Check the announcements!
akagumo group
Comment has been collapsed.