I usually go with life imprisonment ONLY because it costs more to kill someone than to have them serve a life sentence. I do feel that people that do the kind of awful shit that the guy in Oklahoma did deserve to die. They're a waste of space; they'll never contribute anything worthwhile sitting in prison, they'll never have joy, they'll never cause joy for others. There is literally no point to them being alive aside from the fact that the appeals process is so costly that it's less of a burden on taxpayers to not kill them.
However, I only think that way in cases where guilt is absolutely certain, and the accused has had their due process. And it's very hard for guilt to be absolutely certain, so I support the current justice system for lack of a better alternative.
I honestly don't understand the position that no person has the right to kill another person, which has been said by several people below. People have been killing each other for... as long as there have been people. Some people purposely do more harm than good, and when that hits a certain tipping point that they cannot possibly atone for, they should be killed for good of all other people. There's nothing intrinsically good about a human life, the only good that comes of a human life are the good actions that that human does... and if they do not do good, than there is nothing good to save. If they are neutral or do only enough harm that they could, in the future, do good to atone for it, they should not be killed. If they do enough bad that they cannot atone, or show no interest in atoning, they should be killed humanely. There's no point to making someone suffer; it's about removing a blight on humanity, not revenge.
SO; the point of all that was to limit my ideal justice system to using a humane death penalty only on extreme cases (i.e. Jack the Ripper), where guilt is certain, and there is no way/desire for them to atone, and then to explain why I think this is morally just.
Comment has been collapsed.
what do they inject them with to offest a lifetime of room and board unicorn tears and uranium? Why not fix some budget woes with an airtight cell and carbonmonoxide? you don't even know anythings happening til you get sleepy, thats why my water heater is so dangerous and needs replacing. This injection thing is a bit cruel really, make em walk into this bare room and lie down on the table. strap them down knowing its about to happen... Instead you could just have them "waiting for execution" on death row and one day out of the blue flip the switch in the middle of the night. guy thinks its no sooner than nextweek and dead before you know it without even waking up.
Comment has been collapsed.
The reason it costs so much is because of the lengthy and expensive appeal process. And if you're on death row, you know for godDAMN sure you're going to appeal that. You have literally nothing to lose by doing so. And honestly, it'd take a smarter man than I to fix that problem, because we absolutely do NOT want to kill innocent people, so we need to have some kind of quality appeals process in place... which means people should not be given the death penalty because it's too expensive. Quite the catch-22. Which is why I said I usually go along with the current justice system decisions, because I can't think a way out of the problem myself.
And for the method of death; yeah sure carbon monoxide is fine, I mean whatever's the most humane. That's not really my area of expertise, so I'll leave that to the people who know better. If you say carbon monoxide is the best way, I have no argument for that.
Comment has been collapsed.
I think he deserved it. It was sick and savage what he did. We are humans not animals, but screw "lets be better than he was" and let the fucker suffer. May justice prevail.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, I don't really agree with death sentence in the first place. You know, I saw a comic that a father asked his son: "If we, the good people, kill the bad ones, who's left?" and his son answer: "The murderers".
In the other hand, no, even if he did such a bad thing, the best thing to do is send him to jail and never give him the opportunity to leave.
Comment has been collapsed.
you're taking his life either way may as well look im in the eye and be honest with yourself. but if that life sentence thing works for you then an easy way to solve that "the murders are left" thing...simply put the needle in the cell with him. budget for only one week of food and leave it at that. now its either a prison suicide or hungerstrike and we get to be on paper looking like one of those countries with deathpenalty technically on the books but no longer carried out. Just like Norway's(i've been saying sweeden the whole time lol) "humane" 21 year prison deal. at least in america you know when your sentence is up and they tell you to your face if its life. none of this "well maybe you can leave in 5 more years" bullshit.
Comment has been collapsed.
Is this what blacklists are supposed to be for? Honest question
I never had one and i would never blacklist people just because they disagree with me or have different opinions (unless it's something stupid like "all gays should die, black people are the worst" etc etc). I always thought they are supposed to be reserved for people who broke SG rules in one way or another, like regifting wins and whatnot
inb4 i get blacklisted now :(
Comment has been collapsed.
Honest answer, you can put whoever you wouldn't want to receive your gifts into a blacklist (assuming you have one, which I don't), since blacklists are only allowed on private giveaways. Users breaking rules should receive their punishment from the SteamGifts staff.
But thanks for implying that I'm close-minded.
Comment has been collapsed.
I never implied anything or tried to present you as someone close-minded (i don't even know you, so how could i?), so no idea why would you think that. I don't have a blacklist at the moment, never had one and you seemed like a right person to ask. Relax man, try not to overanalyze things that much
Comment has been collapsed.
Basically, "I don't like the way you think, or your opinions, so I will take things away from you."
Got to love the punishment that people give people who speak honestly, if it doesn't abide with (usually) the majority, then fuck'em. Not to say I was blacklisted, but I wouldn't be shocked, I don't apply to private giveaways anyways.
(s)He didn't really say you were close-minded, nor have I, as I am speaking generally, and (s)he just spoke of what (s)he would use the black-list for.
Comment has been collapsed.
all death penalties are barbaric.
Do you know why they exist? Religion. People believe that if you put to death a criminal you are sending them to a worse punishment.
The death penalty is the remnant of a barbarous society that couldn't cope with the idea that the ultimate punishment is always too much.
Comment has been collapsed.
nope. people fear death regardless. killing them is a punishment because they don't want to die not because hell.
Even if/when not a punishment youre still getting rid of the bad dude so he can't ever do it again the surest and most efficient way you can. religion doesn't enter into it.
besides in the oldtimy times its because it lets you stick his head on a pike as an example. usually after some horribly gruesome showy end like england's boiling fawkes alive(and making a holiday of it where children eat boiled sausages) or (england again) disemboweling dismemberment by tying each limb to a horse and then dragging the body for awhile by the biggest piece like a wishbone.
edit- that was incorrect.
correction:
"each of the condemned would be drawn backwards to his death, by a horse, his head near the ground. Their genitals would be cut off and burnt before their eyes, and their bowels and hearts removed. They would then be decapitated, and the dismembered parts of their bodies displayed so that they might become prey for the fowls of the air"
the point is this sort of thing was all about being used as a scary example(maybe flavored with a dash of psychotic revenge)(and unrelated to your specific post but as a reply to all those talking about cruel and unusual being banned this is why and the sort of thing that was meant, not because maybe a guy chokes when his neck was supposed to snap) if it were as you claim about hell why bother with the torture castration and birdfeeding?
Comment has been collapsed.
I told you why they exist, not why people fear them.
Thats a different discussion altogether.
Comment has been collapsed.
except you didn't tell me why they exist. you bafflingly decided it was religion(which alone is a sign of being primitive barbarians) for absolutely no reason. Why then do and did religions with no concept of hell practice executions then?
revenge is a pretty big human instinct but totally has nothing to do with it right?
nor does it being an easy way to get rid of the guy and keep him gone? far far easier than keeping him alive but locked up?
or the fact that people don't want to die so it gets used as effective discouragement? what were heads on pikes just to help the devil find the guy?
it just makes absolutely no sense as an opinion
Comment has been collapsed.
Even cultures without a hell have a good afterlife and a bad afterlife.
Greek culture, lowest idea of hades is everyone goes to the same place. True idea of the place is the heros got a great place to be, the horrible people had a bad one and the normal folks had just regular hades.
Egypt your soul was judged by the gods.
If they have an afterlife they have a shitty afterlife for people that sucked.
It makes sense as an opinion if you know enough.
Comment has been collapsed.
apparently never heard of china. deathpenalty through its entire history and still in use. neither confucianism or taoism has any afterlife at all afik, and bhuddism's "hell" is a temporary inconvenience of getting set back in the reincarnation and ending up a slightly shittier animal for a bit.
death penalty exists because its convenient and has fuckall to do with hells.
Comment has been collapsed.
Do you not understand that variation of reincarnation?
You have to spend several life times as lesser animals and your soul takes countless lifetimes longer to start the climb back towards humanity and attempts at enlightenment.
That is the very definition of a bad afterlife.
Comment has been collapsed.
guido fawkes was hung drawn and quartered, we eat sausage in a bun but theyre fried or most commonly grilled and literally nothing to do with guy fawkes and everything to do with it being an outdoor event and that being a sensible food option
Comment has been collapsed.
Clearly this isn't working out. I get replacing the electric chair, that was gruesome and only approved in the first place because edison shenanigans, but How have we not gone back to a cleanly broken neck or something? or if you really can't mange to teach consistent noose tying what about a mechanically assisted decapitation to remove human error?....tons and tons of alternatives. so how'd we get stuck on this stuff? Especially if random european companies can just choke down on the supply like that.
if a headbag full of helium is good enough for euthanizing australian elderly its more than good enough for serial killers.
Comment has been collapsed.
Have you seen a pet euthanized? It's so fast. When Hitler committed suicide, he bit down on a cyanide capsule and simultaneously shot himself. Even a cyanide capsule by itself is fairly quick. I am left to wonder why lethal injection seems so slow and inefficient in comparison.
The thing that bothers me the most is that the brain takes a long time to die once the heart and respiratory system has shut down. It's very possible that an incredible amount of suffering can occur during the slow process of brain death due to oxygen deprivation caused by the cessation of the heart and lungs. People have reported varying experiences ranging from euphoria to hellish torture in so-called NDE (near-death experience) cases.
Comment has been collapsed.
so you'd need to destroy the brain entirely in one go to be sure. but I feel like large caliber deer slug to the base of the skull would get protested as barbaric instead of the most humane because of appearances from the outside when we should be concerned with the one getting hit. (Like the old dueling swords that "mortally poke" for polite dignified internal bleeding so you don't get the rude slashes and bleed outs that distressed the fairer sex so.)
Comment has been collapsed.
When I was little and science fiction was still somewhat cerebral and regarded as a way to explore these kinds of issues rather than being a mere excuse for brainless action with pew pew lasers and various other flashy stuff, I remember seeing an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation on TV where the form of capital punishment on one planet was to painlessly disintegrate someone in an instant.
But I wonder if people could really be trusted to use the death penalty wisely if it were so easy and trivial and one no longer had to be concerned about the suffering of the recipient of it. Perhaps the concern for inflicting suffering via capital punishment is holding it back from being more widely used, and this is good.
Comment has been collapsed.
I am not sure that you can morally contextualize the man's suffering since it was coincidental and pointless. If there was a law that specifically mandated the suffering he endured as punishment for crimes like his in order to discourage others from committing those crimes, then you might at least be able to argue that it had a point. The reality is that the rules and procedure for lethal injection are specifically designed to avoid the kind of accidental suffering that he endured.
Ideally, one ought to strive to eliminate needless suffering. I think the only way that one could really believe that his suffering was just in this case is to take the irrational step of imagining that there was some kind of supernatural force at work such as karma or god. If you believe in the christian god, ask yourself why he would bother torturing a man before sending him to hell.
I suppose one could try to say that his suffering was justified if it brought consolation to the families of the victims. Personally, I find such a notion to be even more disturbing.
Comment has been collapsed.
And why do they try to avoid it? Because US Constitution, that's why. It's in the Eighth Amendment, to be precise.
Yes, the Constitution consists of more (way more) than the Second Amendment. Oh, I know that demographic. I know it much too well. Often wonder how I can sleep at night, honestly. It helps that I'm not in the US, but a couple thousand miles away.
Comment has been collapsed.
I think he deserved it... probably more
I believe that the punishment should be as severe (if not more) than the crime performed (I have no idea why I am using performed here) by the criminal.
@People-who-say-nobody-deserves-to-take-someone's-life
So.. does this apply to only the people who don't go around murdering? I mean.. there's no point saying this to someone who already killed someone...
@People-who-say-they-should-get-life-sentence-but-not-death (probably same as above)
So, you are saying.. A homeless person should just murder someone so that he can have a roof to be under?
Comment has been collapsed.
to keep people's hands clean just have the murders execute each other. being executioner pushes your date back as an incentive to participate in the judicial system, maybe a limit on how many times you can do it to encourage population turnover and prevent some kingpin type situation.
and since we're suggesting tweaks anyway just make life into the functionally identical but less tedious death sentence across the board and you can open their cells up as a homeless shelter no murder necessary?
Comment has been collapsed.
Just have the death sentence carried out by firing squad. Have the intended recipient sit in a chair in front of a .45 aimed at their head. On the other side of a bullet proof shield/viewing window, have the executioner pull a string tied to the trigger or press a button to activate the trigger remotely. Just before they are to be executed, have them medically dosed with morphine or some other opiod to shush the people claiming its inhuman.
Comment has been collapsed.
re: pull a string on a gun from a distance
I didnt mean literal clean hands I meant "@People-who-say-nobody-deserves-to-take-someone's-life"
apparently this guy was replying to people who were saying professional executioners shouldn't be put through the stress of being professional executioners(i guess they must be drafted for life or something and this isn't a job you apply for?) so i was replying to them too.
Comment has been collapsed.
I think you got me wrong (or I wrote in a way that people won't understand what I am saying)
There are many people who say that nobody has right to take someone's life (Hmm.. I should have used 'right' instead of deserve, my bad XD)
So I was asking if they are excluding the people who already took lives... since.. you know.. they already did it.
I like your ideas though!
And the other was towards the people who were saying that death penality should not be given at all.. they should be given just a life sentence.... I was going to use terrorism as an example, but wasn't sure if I should be discussing that so I used something less subtle... Since, according to their logic homeless people can get a shelter for life by killing someone.
Comment has been collapsed.
Wow, an imbecile.
Why? Because we have homeless people here in Germany, and based on your logic, they should all go on murderous rampages to get a roof over their head. Wonder why they don't do it?
Because humans don't easily kill humans! If that were easy, then armies the world over wouldn't have researched, for ages, for ways and methods to get that reluctance to kill someone out of their soldiers. Without turning them into murderous lunatics, of course. Oh, and prison isn't nice. Never was. Never will be, no matter how many times people will blabber about how prisoners have it so good. They don't.
Comment has been collapsed.
My logic? I believe you are the one who thinks people who kill should get a life sentence and not a death sentence. (I assume you are against death sentence because you replied to something I asked people who think so)
I am not saying they should do it, I am just saying that according your logic that is what they should do if they just want a shelter. I am sure people who haven't been to prison (or work there) don't know how a prison is like... it's definedly worse than home but are you sure it's worse than staying on the road?
Maybe it's not easy for most people to kill others.. but it's not so rare either.
More than 460,000 people were murdered in 2011 (or 2012.. but since study was done is 2012.. I am guessing 2011) [Source]
Comment has been collapsed.
Agreed ... plus innocent could be sent to death row too ... but can you really even solve violence ? Humans = Violence. From the beginning. We got hands to build, we build just to destroy and hurt stuff.
Comment has been collapsed.
Appeal to nature fallacy
Yes, it's very easy to solve violence.
Just get rid of normal people, apparently, or so you seem to tell me in the previous page.
Comment has been collapsed.
If someone breaks into your house and steals from you, aren't you entitled to take your rightful property back by force if need be? Does brandishing a weapon on an attacker not solve the issue of the attacker's violence towards you?
Violence and aggression (the initiation of violence) are not the same. The former can be justified as a response to the latter. Very often, proportionate retribution is the only solution available.
Comment has been collapsed.
Sorry, but in the real world, crazy people do not respond to please and thank you. They revel in you begging for your life. These sort of people that rape and murder need to be removed from society permanently. The cost of housing an inmate is in the millions of dollars before they reach the death sentence. Imagine that cost doubled because instead of killing them, they are allowed to continue to live. From a monetary stand point it makes no sense to keep these people alive longer. From a legal stand point, they have already used their chances at appeal and stops by this point. From a single emotional stand point, after a few years, people become complacent with prison and it no longer carries any stigma with them. They get their TV's, they can special order food, internet access and so on. For all instances and purposes, they are far better off in a 1st world prison then most 3rd world people are day to day. Its unfair to their victims and if they escape or manage an appeal, to their next victims.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, don't get me wrong but if people are stupid it doesn't really matter how good your education system is.
They should teach "parenting" at schools and rearrange welfare to stop retarded people abusing it.
I don't see USA's future as bright as they claim to be.
Comment has been collapsed.
how to redefine what's evil is bigger than another - this man broke rights of two people, but what punishment deserves president of big empire who make decision to annex part of another country, and soldiers-agents of this empire came here, began to make lawlessness, and one of soldier breaks into house where two young women live... also such breaks of rights by this soldiers are counted by thousands. I mean politics, businessmen, elite may damage interest of mass people, whole nations, and what's the punishment it should be?
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm opposed to the death sentence in general, basically on the grounds of Blackstone's formulation: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." You can release and compensate a person for wrongful imprisonment. You can't if they're dead. I do not trust the power of execution to justice systems as broken, corrupt and inept as we have today. This case, where they botched the killing of a man, just affirms my opinion.
That being said, I'm also of the opinion that destroying another person's life warrants the destruction of the perpetrator's life as well. And death itself is hardly an excruciating punishment. Oblivion isn't that terrifying when you're incapable of appreciating it. But a life sentence wasted in total isolation is, I think, a more terrifying and more suitable punishment than the mercy of swift release.
Comment has been collapsed.
Wonder if you'd still say it if you (or someone close to you) were that one innocent person.
Oh and we're not talking about imprisonment, we're talking death penalty. Killing in the Name of the Law. If we'd be talking about imprisonment, then "Not even one innocent" would mean we abolish all criminal justice. No-one asks for that.
(Insults omitted, and believe me, it was hard)
Comment has been collapsed.
The death penalty is barbaric and bloodthirsty. It appeals to vengeance. It clearly doesn't deter crime, and if it's meant to clear out prisons so that the State uses fewer resources, then where are the morals in that? It shouldn't be up to the moral standards of the day (or in some cases, very aged standards) to decide such an incredible fate.
I find it risible that some of the people here have allowed themselves to believe that they are so incredibly knowledgeable that they have the capability to judge whether someone should live or die. But they're under no worse delusion than the officials - it shouldn't be up to any person or group of people to determine the unnatural end of a person's life. Capital punishment is pure revenge, and often the wrong person is killed, and, utterly heinously, the supposed criminal's socio-ethnic background often plays a part, precisely because of the aforementioned emotion-based (revenge) decision that the death sentence is. It's completely morally reprehensible. The issue of the social background and the wrong person issue often go hand in hand - often you'll find it's people of ethnic minorities who get wrongly convicted of things much more than others.
In direct answer to OP's question, is 45 minutes of physical torture worse than half a lifetime of psychological torture? Having to spend half your life in prison, waiting to be killed, perhaps hoping that there's a chance for appeal? I'm not saying that these criminals are my friends, but how exactly is someone who inflicts capital punishment any less guilty of murder than the original criminal? And what about the wrongfully convicted? Even if it's 1 person in 100, that one person had to spend his life in constant fear and agony, because someone lied (for whatever reason). That alone deters most other civilised countries from allowing the death penalty.
Comment has been collapsed.
Some guy murdered 2 kids,raped their mother and burn their house with mother inside.Yey, lets keep him in the prison,feed him well and let him live there with people forever.Lets waste 10.000$/year on him and try to educate him so he might stop killing people.
I'm pretty sure you never met a murderer or you wouldn't talk like that.They're not "people" they're freakn monsters.I met a guy in prison, who constantly talks about people he's gonna kill when he gets out of prison.Let's just hope that he understands that killing is wrong in that 37 years left on his punishment.
Comment has been collapsed.
Based on your estimate of cost/year that still only adds up to $20billion~ which isn't even close to the cost of the military per year that we pay, not to mention the other "services."
Also, prisoners produce a profit to some extent believe it or not, as well as they produce jobs.
Killing the murderers wouldn't even take a billion out of the cost, so really, it doesn't really matter financially, so your argument is, well, pretty worthless.
Not to mention the food isn't close to well, nor are the people there, but as I've said before ITT, I don't really have an opinion on people of such. I'd have to be around them to connect to develop one, otherwise, I don't really care, there's no reason either way aside from just to see someone get killed.
Not all murderers are like that, and certainly not all (former) prisoners (off-topic), as I know both.
The vast majority aren't these bloody bloodbaths involving kids getting murdered, houses being burned, and rapes everywhere. Sorry, but they just aren't. Most crimes aren't like people think of them as, they're much more tame, and often times, innocent and harmless, not to say they're always like that though.
Comment has been collapsed.
I wish my country had death penalty.I really thing all "murderers" should be punished with death.Why do we waste thousands of dollars to keep them fed at the prisons ? I'm not talking about small crimes like stealing/fraud and stuff, I'm just saying murder should be punished with death.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes, he deserved the death sentence and he got it so the world got rid of an evil person and that is good.
Rotting in a cell getting fed and clothed by the law abiding people is not much of a punishment.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm a bleeding heart liberal who is in favor of the death penalty. Am I a "prick" too?
PS: I also own guns.
Comment has been collapsed.
No. Yes.
I'm happy to be living in a country that abolished the death penalty right after WWII. Even for military crimes. But of course, what do Germans know about justice, right? They only know how badly a criminal justice system can be fucked up. And how to kill scores of innocent people. Though of course, according to the laws at that time (and yes, I'm speaking of the Nazi era), they were guilty. Well, some were. Sheesh, you have to break some eggs to make an omelette!
Next up: Is torture a valid means of getting information?
Comment has been collapsed.
16,299 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by Carenard
82 Comments - Last post 6 hours ago by WaxWorm
56 Comments - Last post 8 hours ago by Carenard
1,811 Comments - Last post 9 hours ago by ngoclong19
72 Comments - Last post 11 hours ago by Reidor
545 Comments - Last post 13 hours ago by UltraMaster
41 Comments - Last post 13 hours ago by ViToos
51 Comments - Last post 14 seconds ago by reigifts
2,731 Comments - Last post 3 minutes ago by ilove420
20 Comments - Last post 12 minutes ago by BlaiddGwyn
95 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by Vasharal
117 Comments - Last post 2 hours ago by Cole420
8 Comments - Last post 2 hours ago by StrangeAsAngels
72 Comments - Last post 3 hours ago by eeev
Oklahoma.
A guy breaks into a house where two young women live. He shoots one, and buries her alive. He rapes the other. On Tuesday, he was killed by lethal injection. But. They fucked up. He took 45 minutes to die, and he died in agony. Source
So, what do you think SG? Did he deserve it? Is it barbaric?
Comment has been collapsed.