pride month, black history month threads and related games are banned from discussions now?
because while being political topics, these are like basic humans right that are recognized legally, you're just gonna ban them because someone doesn't like "the gays" or a kkk member wanna argue about why he doesnt like that month and just spam hateful comments till the thread gets closed?
while i do not like the political threads here, the answer is MODERATION, not just ban everything that's and call it a day,
i don't like the political threads here, not because i hate talking about politics, but because they're not moderated,
you need a discussions guideline, not just ban everything that's a mild inconvenience.
there's a difference between "israel commands hospitals to be evacuated, 1000~1500 kids are killed so far", "hamas killed 1400, abducted women and the elderly, showed abusing the body of a dead woman"
and
"ISREALELELI TERRORISTS BLA BLA BLA" "HAMAS DECAPITATED 40 KID"
one is an actual civilized political discussion with actual facts that supports a belief that someone has, and the other is just propagandist fake trolly post, you don't need to be a verified fact checker to see the difference between someone sharing their beliefs and someone just being annoying.
well, reading that last sentence you may just want to ban annoying people, not the topics they're talking about.
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also mods are free, there's tens/hundreds of thousands of mods out there working for free for all sorts of companies/communities, you will never run out of enthusiastic mods to monitor the website.
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You missed the point. On internet, being a mod is not about working hard to help people for free. It is about having the sense of (virtual) power. It's worth more than money for some people. So getting more mods is more like a problem than a solution.
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not always power, sometimes a sense of usefulness, like many people here, active members would love to be able to moderate certain aspects of the website, they're already super involved, have tens of thousands of comments and probably thousands of giveaways, i wouldnt say they would do it to be on a power trip, but more to contribute to a community they love.
many thought don't want the whole burden to be put on them, so having multiple mods would make them more comfortable volunteering to do the modding.
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Of course, as you say, more personnel is a good thing. But...
It is generally impossible to "act in a truly rational manner" without compensation while protecting one's daily life. You will often have to contribute on the basis of some kind of impossibility or hardship.
Please appreciate that there are many things in the world that are built on some burden or load.
Even if they had the ability, they would not suddenly grab an alien and install him as president.
This is the problem with a commercial mindset that has no moral or legal compliant spirit that manpower can be managed in any way.👽♚
The operator would also be paying for the hard work of morals, conventions, education, and time to learn the rules and support for training new personnel necessary for the operation.⏳
[Personal Nonsense]
I continue to do one or more Giveaways each month that educate people about using SGTools for many years.
I understand that this makes it easier for support to organize information.
I also understand that the more people who know the guidelines, the less likely they are to have problems, so I tell new users about them, and I sometimes formulate off-topic discussions that hide those easy-to-understand gifts during major updates such as this one.
If there is an increase in malicious activity against game users in the public, we also alert people about those warning articles (Steam malware fiasco).
These are acts that make a certain amount of sense no matter how many times anyone does them.
It might also be a good thing in matters that are difficult to understand that such things are done in languages other than English. (e.g., writing both in English and in one's native language)
I feel that it is important to have someone who can help with the details, because in reality there are people who don't understand English but join the community because they want the prizes without speaking a word.
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Or, you know, you could just do giveaways...
There's a common trend among all of you, oh so concerned, about radically themed (exclusive) discussions being taken away from you. You all preach 'muh free speech', while disparaging the real majority of people/users here. Guaranteed most of you guys are the ones that have reported other users for saying something YOU don't like. Also the ones with the largest blacklists (how inclusive!).
Hypocrites.
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the irony of an American telling dude a middle eastern dude that.
i mean you're more than welcome to move next door to me since the majority of people around here believe in exactly what you believe in and aren't afraid to say it out loud, they're even being encouraged to say it and if you say otherwise you might even go to jail.
i think many westerners have too much freedom and so little problems that they have a skewed view of the world, to you "gay" is "muh free speech" to people around this area it's either a literal death sentence or a social death sentence.
so please check your "privilege" before writing such a comment.
also literally my comment said you can have BOTH pro Palestine and pro Israel discussions and gave an example of CIVIL discussions then gave an example of some hateful non sense that leads to nothing, so i have no clue how you came out with the conclusions that's i am against people addressing their beliefs?
literally the only thing i said i am against is a kkk member writing hateful comments about black history month, so unless you're a hateful person i have no idea how my comment would affect you negatively, and if you took my first comment negatively that says more about you than me tbh, i literally said i am ok with all kinds of discussions, and you're mad at me for being against hateful comments?
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Blacklist: currently 1 (haven't managed it for months)
User reports: only because of previously broken giveaway rules (since I haven't created GAs for quite a while, none)
Not using any ignore function offered by ESGST.
So on which study is your trend based? And how does the study creator even look up our blacklists or reports?
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I think this is a good move, though I do understand the doubts about the 2nd point. So maybe it needs to be improved. Overall support the new guidelines.
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Overreaction in my eyes, for now at least. We will have to see how this is practically executed in the future.
A thread is not to blame for single comments in it. Moderation can or should be able to edit comments (to remove ref links, hate speech etc), comments completely offending guidelines should be made invisible (collapsed, so users can still see that a mod did something, best case: with short reasoning). If the opening post of a topic is full of offending rules, close the thread, yeah, but only then.
You already have tools to punish single users from warnings up to permanent bans.
A moderator edit or posting should be highlighted in some kind of way (a format which can't be used by regular users). Then you have transparency and other users notice or are reminded what should be avoided.
Furthermore, this way people don't get confused when mods just appear as a regular user and post their very own opinion. Even in this thread one user already referred to a mod posting as if it would provide a general guideline. It's not. Moderators are regular users at the same time. Users need to be able to distinguish that.
If you don't have enough moderators for that, ask for more.
Regarding the "this is a giveaway/gaming" website: yes, but it's also a > 10 years old community. Regular readers know like hundred other regular users and want to talk about off topic stuff, be it other media, food, sports, society or politics. Usually off topic is separated from main forums, so those who only want to read on topic aren't affected. The issue here is: off topic being shown in top discussions. Remove it from there and good.
Best solution would be if subscribing forums would have an effect on top discussions, but I guess that's too much work.
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I miss blocking users in the forums too, is that possible to implement? (like in Steam)
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good decision lel
this is a gaming site first and foremost after all
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This.
These kinds of topics should be discussed on Reddit or Facebook or wherever else, this website has nothing to do with politics.
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Completely agree.
I rarely use the forums becase almost always the top conversations have nothing to do with gaming.
I just browse the deals section and that's it. I only come here for the games/giveaways.
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So support Israel's genocide or be censored and labeled a terrorist. Embarrassing
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Definitions from Oxford Languages
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
A country defending itself, not from another country but from a terrorist organization (Hamas) is not genocide, Hamas does in fact want to erradicate Jews, that would be genocide.
If you celebrate a terrorist attack that doesn't make you a terrorist but it does mean that you are pro terrorist.
Also Hamas is not the same as Palestine, it seems some people don't understand that.
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Murdered brutally by donkey dongs because they ate unhealthy food during saint ramadan, so basically well deserved!
Faith ain't no toy, y'kno... Allahu Ambar!
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Over 40.000.000 Israeli children have been killed
source? I just pulled that number out of my ass.
Then Palestina is Hamas? Iran and Palestina are genocides too? Iran and Palestina are "Freedom fighters"? Do you support Hamas atrocities? Is it fine as long as the women raped, children beheaded, etc. are Israeli?
Say what you support and what you condemn.
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My mistake, 2000 children killed. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2023/10/22/death-toll-palestine-rises-4651-nearly-2000-children-dead/4161697982346
I condemn both attacks. I do not think the appropriate action for a state government is to enact war crimes out of revenge on woman and children. Do you condemn both? Do you think the answer for terrorism is to indiscriminately murder the helpless?
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why do you try to start a discussion, being off-topic in this thread and circumventing newest rules, regarding sensitive topics?
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4,651 killed, dead include 1,871 children, 1,023 women and 187 elderly people (That would be 66% do you really believe that?), the source of the article is the Palestinian government, isn't that controlled by Hamas?
Do you think that Hamas is trustworthy as a source of information? I think the source should be neutral. Also does that number include the Palestinians killed by Hamas? (The ones killed on purpose and the ones killed by accident also)
There are multiple videos of Hamas and other terrorists saying that all Jews must die (i don't think you can deny that) But do you have videos of the Israeli stating the same about the Palestinians?
Of course i don't like war, and especially the killing of innocent. But i would never use the word both. You can't compare a terrorist organization to a country victim of terrorism. Hamas did what they did intentionally and enjoyed it and made a parade out of it.
Children, women an elderly and also civilian men victims by Israel disgust me but sadly there are casualties in war (that's why i don't like war) But how should Israel defend from Hamas barbaric terrorists that prey upon the palestinians? With flowers and songs, and positive thinking?
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2000 dead children are just "casualties of war" to you, as this is completely unavoidable. You just blame it on the enemy and act as if Israel has no blood on their hands, that 4000 deaths are either a lie or done by someone else despite constantly bombing Gaza strip! Shameful...
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Ffs, the "moderation" here is a joke and it's not even a very good joke. Fuck you.
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The suspension seems a little arbitrary to me. I'm not one to expect moderators to justify every decision they make, but given that a lot of the concerns regarding the new rules focus on a lack of transparency and even-handedness, maybe it's worth a few notes on the logic behind it.
Moontouched's original post was obviously misguided, but was a direct response to the topic of this thread - the new rule.
marianoag's response was unrelated to the rule, just starting a discussion about the war, which they continued to engage in with anyone who would bite.
BorschtLover's response was a sarcastic joke about people dying in the war.
ikkiyakki's response was a sarcastic insult of the Muslim religion, in relation to the war.
ormax continued the discussion of the war.
wigglenose continued the discussion of the war.
CRAZY463708's first response is a provocative comment, related to the war.
Why is Moontouched's behaviour cause for a suspension, but everyone else's was evidently fine?
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ikkiyakki's response was a sarcastic insult of the Muslim religion, in relation to the war.
just read this person's many replies, they are ALL insults against one race/religion, not in any way sarcastic, rather bigoted and racist.
and yet no mod action taken, they all still stand.
obviously I won't be linking to comments anymore; but they're not hard to find here or in the palestine thread
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just read this person's many replies, they are ALL insults against one race/religion, not in any way sarcastic, rather bigoted and racist.
and yet no mod action taken, they all still stand.
same could be said about that troll CRAZY
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4,651 killed, dead include 1,871 children, 1,023 women and 187 elderly people (That would be 66% do you really believe that?), the source of the article is the Palestinian government, isn't that controlled by Hamas?
The numbers don't add up, and i don't believe in Hamas' numbers.
2000 dead children are just "casualties of war" to you, as this is completely unavoidable.
You know tergiversing my words is a form of lying. Of course it's unacceptable but that's why because war is awful, it's not pretty, it's not a videogame.
You just blame it on the enemy and act as if Israel has no blood on their hands
Don't lie, i dont. The innocent victims by Israel are on Israel hands and the innocent victims of Hamas (both Israeli and Palestinians) are on Hamas hands.
that 4000 deaths are either a lie or done by someone else despite constantly bombing Gaza strip!
I don't know the number, but if Hamas says it then i'm sure it's less. And unlike you i dont care about the numbers, one innocent victim is one victim too much.
And Hamas destroyed the hospital i blame each one for their killings i don't deny facts.
But how should Israel defend from Hamas barbaric terrorists that prey upon the palestinians? With flowers and songs, and positive thinking?
You didn't answer how can you defend yourself against terrorism? ignore it and it will go away???
Shameful...
Shameful is to talk about a terrorist organization (Hamas), that does the same or more damage (not talking about literal damage, not talking about deaths) to Palestinians than Israel, and equate those terrorists (Hamas, not Palestine) to a country victim of a barbaric terrorist attack and pretend that they do nothing about it.
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what is disgusting is you reducing thousands of dead children to just acceptable collateral damage.
Consider what some in the Israeli defense establishment have said.
“The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in,” a reservist major general, Giora Eiland, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth, an Israeli newspaper. “Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal.” He added, “Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.” Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said, “We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly.” Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian declared that in Gaza, “there will be no electricity and no water. There will only be destruction. You wanted hell; you will get hell.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-states-gaza.html
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You twist my words to fit your agenda, i already replied to the same lies and misquotes above.
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am i twisting your words? you are literally denying the published death toll of Palestinians as lies because you assume that 66% percentage of women/children was too much? Did you know that almost half of palestinian population are children.
those number don't even includes the thousands of unrecovered bodies buried under the rubble which are now predicted to create an environmental disaster on top of everything else.
But do you have videos of the Israeli stating the same about the Palestinians?
https://7or.7amleh.org/violence-indicator
more denial?
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so what you read online is 100% true then - i'm sure because someone posted it online it must be 100% fact and 100% true ok then i'll post that Tom Hanks scored two goals in the world cup final - it's online it must be true
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and what exactly are you questioning here? the dead children?
maybe you're right, maybe it's all a big conspiracy and everything we see and read is AI generated fabrication..
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no i'm not what i said or meant at all - did you even read my comment
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We just made a change to avoid discussing this war, and people bring the same topic to the thread that announce it.
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And a lot of people already pointed out that administration need to ban the trolls, not to mindlessly close the threads. One day suspension for trolls won't do anything
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As i said i replied to the same lies here https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/sE7Halz about what you imply that i said?
Instead of assuming you can ask me what i meant, but you guys prefer to made up things i never said instead of asking. If you don't care to have a civil conversation then i'm out. If you do, you are welcome to ask me anything and we can talk.
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seeing your previous track of racist hate speech:
I choose not to engage with anything vile you have to say, and simply link to my previous comment:
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good you're linking to a closed thread, trying to continue a discussion and circumventing latest rulechanges
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I am pointing out this user's history of loathsome comments and why I am ignoring anything hateful they say, the opposite of continuing a discussion
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ah, i see, i just thought this thread is about the latest change of content guidelines, my fault
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can't hide the past just because you close or had a thread closed
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you mean i can create a thread violating the rules, having it closed and then further link to it?
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i don't know about that but you can't pretend someone didn't say something just because the thread is closed
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no you can't, but linking to a closed thread is trying to continue a discussion, and circumventing latest rule changes
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i guess it is sort of 50 -50 i get what you mean but also how would you prove a past comment happened? This is tough if only let us block threads we didn't want to see
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But do you have videos of the Israeli stating the same about the Palestinians
Well, yes actually. I don't know if I'm allowed to link it here though.
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See to believe. Yo can send me a friend request on steam to send me the link if you want.
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Did you even watch the videos?
Only 20 seconds in the first link you can see what i mean.
Although to be fair, i wasn't clear enough with what was obvious to me, comparing the sayings of Hamas leaders to the sayings of Israeli leaders. The angry mobs doesn't count (they have a reason to be angry but that doesn't justify the exabrupts)
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So support Israel's genocide or be censored and labeled a terrorist. Embarrassing
Interesting opening to then claim that you ...
I condemn both attacks
You delivered a great example why such discussions got banned as you couldn't even provide a sensible opening.
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Personally, I believe banning content related to sexuality would be you "facilitating a hostile and divisive environment throughout our community." There are nearly always people in the Pride threads just their to insult people (this years thread was actually very good, though, I think.) I'd argue those people going into a celebration thread just to be mean and argue are the ones making it hostile. Not the thread existing. Maybe you should do something about them instead of banning content regarding sexuality. But sure, lets shut down any thread related to sexuality because some people get upset by other people with a sexuality different than theirs existing. It makes as much sense as banning the topic of "brown hair." I don't really think you should ban talk of "sensitive subjects" at all, but sexuality in particular, is just a trait someone has. Say a gay person gets married and makes a thread in celebration of their wedding with giveaways. Some users get upset by this, it would be shut down, right? If that's the case would you also shut down a thread of someone celebrating their wedding with giveaways if they were straight? What if I complain that I don't want to hear about their sexuality? How consistent is this rule going to be enforced? Or does sexuality just mean LGBTQIA+ topics?
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The rules really needs some nuance and better phrasing. Queer-baiting af
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Got horny just from reading this..... gotta go jerk off to some "appropriate gore"......
ADMIN CLOSE THIS THREAD NOW, IT'S GROWIN' DANGEROUSLY INCORRECT!!!!!!111
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As another member of support, I would like to also share my thoughts on the new rules from seeing the plan in motion as well as the aftermath. (Not directed towards cg)
As a junior moderator, I don't have any power in deleting comments or closing threads so I won't touch them unless it might be something urgent that might need to be alerted to the higher ups. Recently, a ticket had come by reporting a thread which feels like a rarity for junior mods to see in comparison to mass reroll & deletion. No one had responded yet so I took a peek and despite there being no photos, videos, or links of any kind, I was horrified by what I'd walked into. I am aware that there are horrible people in the world but I didn't believe this site had fostered so much hate to the point it became normalized to open up a thread and spill the most hateful and vile racism and discrimination.
When I think of SG, this is a site where people are giving gifts to strangers, moderators are volunteering their time, people are inspired to create puzzles, games, websites, and extensions to benefit and give back to others here. It was scary to imagine some people could sit at home watching people be brutally murdered and read so many horrific reports then fester in their validation of their own discriminations. Then share it here because there's already a variety of war threads/comments and involved people here to celebrate with while simultaneously stomping down on other parties because that high of justification. Then those controversies bring about trolls and all that drives away good people from the site.
It may be normalized online to be a troll online and speak as if you may also throw yourself into the wars and happily commit mass murder but that shouldn't be something normalized for the few people in support to be subjected to. Those opinions can influence the way we look over shoulders as we leave the house or the feeling while walking away after tucking in our children at night. It's not fair on the higher ups that have to cross verify every link or video to reason out the proper suspension duration if issued.
This may not be the perfect solution but it puts in protections for the moderators as well as doing heavy lifting to start futureproofing the site. I also believe that that it allows more freedom to speak than people give credit to. If we had volunteers moderating those threads and comments who could stomach the hate while also issuing permabans, that would still be a reoccurring problem with a growing site and more war focused discussions growing = more "silenced" accounts. In our current solution, Warmongering trolls will still be punished but we're arranging discussions to prevent the site from being focused on housing a war focused community. As well, closing a thread isn't so much of a consequence as it doesn't do anything to OP's account. If your thread receives a closure, it will more often than not come with an explanation if not multiple warnings from the community to edit the thread or close and repost a more appropriate discussion within our guidelines.
Tl;dr: In my opinion, the new guidelines are clearly in place for a reduction of hostility as well as reduction of wear and tear on the support team, not an absolute removal of the mentioned "sensitive topics".
Edit: I would like to take a moment to thank everyone for the feedback on my last statement. In my mind, it made sense to leave a vague solution to imply it was one of many for what could happen but that seems to have confused everyone a bit more. Apologies for that 😅. I would like to assure everyone that there's so many better solutions the site allows for that I'd overlooked and as someone who moderates giveaway tickets rather than threads, even I hadn't thought of every potential solution. Considering this is a precious moment of change, I have great respect for everyone who is taking a moment of their time to be heard as it can bring up much needed ideas and clarification to attempt satisfying such a massive community when new changes come into place. I'd like to think many people in our team are taking notes and carefully planning for the changes ahead with everyone's comments in mind. ^-^
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if you post celebrating your coming out story and there's overwhelming harassment or controversial opinions in the comments, it could be subject to being closed for the protection of the community
This is some of the dumbest **** I have ever heard or read in my life. You don't punish the innocents for the deeds of the guilty!
In your example, there is only one solution: Jump into the thread, post a clear message that Harrassment and/or Instigation is not allowed, that action will be taken and people who will still harrass or instigate after the mod message will be taken care of immediately without a second warning, ban the instigators and harassers, protect the community member who celebrates her/his coming out story at all costs, clean the thread by deleting any offensive comments and keep the thread open!
If the quote is indeed the way this website will operate from now on, then I will go the Icaio route and will leave for good.
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If they follow this route there may be no community to protect left over.
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This is some of the dumbest **** I have ever heard or read in my life.
Why start a sentence like this? fleart took the time to share their opinion. They are honestly one of the kindest and most considerate users I've seen in the community. And, instead of stating your counterpoint in a respectful way, you choose the above words. It makes your entire argument less persuasive, discourages someone from sharing their opinion in the future, and escalates a peaceful conversation into an aggressive one.
I do agree with your solution to the hypothetical situation. The thread shouldn't be closed and it should be resolved using our harassment guideline. Closing the discussion is not how the site would operate. I am working to clarify the wording for the new guidelines because it's not properly conveying my intentions and I wouldn't want anyone to think the situation would be handled otherwise.
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Closing the discussion is not how the site would operate.
This is reassuring. I look forward to the updated verbiage.
if you post celebrating your coming out story and there's overwhelming harassment or controversial opinions in the comments, it could be subject to being closed for the protection of the community.
This is precisely what some of us have been fearing since you posted your announcement. Seeing it expressed so casually by a member of the mod team is pretty frightening, and I think that's what led to Amano's emotional response.
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Yep that part made me concerned from the beginning too
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Apologies, it was a mistake on my end.
I believe the scenario I'd imagined in my head went much differently than I'd image it to be received.
The thought process was something like if the first few comments overtaken the thread from the beginning with a vast amount of users harshly discriminating back and forth, it may be best to shut down the topic and allow the user to repost after placing appropriate bans on users who had been making the topic into something that it's not.
That aside, AmanoTC made a great point about deleting the comments and resolving the situation peacefully while still being able to leave the thread open.
I don't personally handle discussions (or have the permissions needed to handle them) so I can't take a gamble to explain every potential outcome but I am happy to see that we do have more options to resolve matters without closing down threads. ^-^
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Well, I understand AmanoTC's emotions. This community has become important to many of us, we come here to share our pain and our joy, we discuss what matters to us. And then we read that as of now, for instance, Pride thread is theoretically allowed, but homophobes can just close it with minimal efforts, all that's required is a bit of trolling. I hope it won't actually work this way, but that's how your post is worded and apparently that's how some mods have understood it (and accepted it). At least this comment is reassuring indeed.
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Couldn't this be resolved with a new discussion category like "World News" and then moderating the comments in those threads? I don't see why banning the discussion of 2 wars is a real solution when the actual problem is people in those threads advocating for Israel to commit war crimes or for Hamas to kill more Jews. It doesn't make sense to ban a topic because some people are saying crazy things, all that does is encourage people to continue with this behavior.
You say that the example the moderator used (closing a thread because some people are being hateful) isn't the solution you want, but that's exactly what you are doing with the 2 topics that are now banned. In the future, if I were someone who hated gay people for instance, I could just try to start arguments and conflict in every gay-related thread until the topic gets banned from the site for being "too controversial".
I'm sympathetic, because moderating controversial threads is a headache and added workload, but the alternative is giving in to the crazy people. I think the first rule posted has the right idea, promoting terrorism should be bannable, the same way promoting racism, homophobia, etc. is. But you can't ban the discussion of black people because racists throw a hissy fit over it, you ban the racists themselves
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They have a history in always taking the lazy approach to fight their problems and rarely suspend anyone, look at that unsolved amount of user reports...
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Instead of inventing rules that ban certain topics or putting the burden on volunteer mods to look for objectionable content in thousands of posts, why not implement a per-comment reporting function?
This is the tried and tested method that every social media platform and forum site that I know of uses. Each comment and discussion post should have a "report" button that brings up a list of pre-defined categories for reporting e.g. gore, harassment, racism, sexual content, etc. The mods would have a page with a summary of all the reports and can address the most heavily flagged comments first.
This seems to me like the most logical and sustainable way to deal with the moderation issue without resorting to draconian bans on "controversial" topics or expecting the mods to be all-seeing superheroes.
Of course, the risk is that some trolls will abuse the report function but those isolated incidents should be easy enough to spot and deal with.
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Apologies for the misunderstanding in my post.
I understood while writing my comment that I would not have the best solution in mind but I feel quite a bit ashamed in retrospect for finding solutions to problems I don't actively take part in. I hope that I did a bit better in clarifying my mistake as I really had no intention of speaking for the actions of the team.
Despite all this, it is quite nice to hear feedback directly from the community as well as clarification directly from you. I feel as though I'm learning a lot should I ever take part in discussions in the future. ^-^ I appreciate you taking the time to respond!
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Apologies for my wording there.
As I tried to mentioned in my comment, I had come up with a quick hypothetical situation with a quick potential solution all based on non-existent factors within the comment section. The point of why I'd said it is that the exact effects will depend on the exact actions taken within each thread. I can understand why my wording would cause for concern when we haven't seen the effects of the new guidelines in the long run but I do believe they will work towards carefully handling discrimination and reoccurring controversy in the community so that it can be a healthy space to discuss peacefully.
I completely agree that your solution would be a more reasonable one given the information ^-^. I would also like to say that I haven't handled any discussion related matters because I primarily stay within the the giveaway related tickets but I will happily accept the advice going forward should I ever handle discussion related matters in the future.
I appreciate the feedback and I'm happy to know there are a plentiful amount of solutions to the given hypothetical! ^-^
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wow the censorship gets real now, watch out if Karens feel harassed by LGBTQ, BLM, AntiFa or whatever the reason might be
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Grow a spine.
Edit: I apologize. I just don't think that everyone needs to leave. I'm leaving my original comment there for context
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The discussion derailed in the first few months of starting, and has been allowed to have full on arguments and links to graphic content. I know the Ukraine thread isn't the reason for the new rules/guidelines, but there has to be a filter. And for the Israel and Palestine threads to get closed, I believe cg had no choice but to close the Ukraine one as well for consistency.
Unfortunately, I agree that cg really fucked up in how he has done and his wording of the guidelines, but I understand what he's trying to do. I've seen people complaining about other stuff like LGBT+ stuff being filtered (something which HASN'T happened), people are going insane. I don't understand why people have to up and leave.
My "grow a spine", although maybe sounding harsh, had nothing to do with the Ukraine thread itself.
For people to leave left and right is up to them, but do they really have to leave a site which primary purpose was is for giveaways, the discussion forums are secondary. They're a bonus. If they're being ruined by these toxic threads, they need to be filtered.
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Noted, but in this case besides the point.
You actually say "grow a spine" to a person who has family and friends in both war zones. He is very much affected by these wars and came here for comfort and not hate. He was actually the most peaceful person in the thread.
I hope you didn't know that about this person because in this case it isn't just harsh, it's just evil.
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I don't know anyone on this site personally, and until your original [deleted] comment, I wasn't aware they were the original creator of the Ukraine thread. Anyway, I've apologised, so you don't need to forgive me for a comment made towards someone else.
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There is nothing you did to me I need to forgive you for. No hard feelings from me.
I only wanted to say in this case your comment wasn't appropriate.
But good you apologized to him. :)
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Preface for those who don't understand
First, let me preface this by saying that the "Ukraine Awareness Thread 💙💛" is the argument you set up before the "event that happened in Ukraine" became the "current situation".
(That event was sudden and force majeure.) . Also, that Russia censored the internet, making major sites inaccessible and gathering information on how to bypass the SG community)
🤔
I interpret this as a protest against the fact that the Ukraine Discussion is CLOSE and I want to be able to have additional discussions.
As to why we are of such a mind, I understand that some people have condemned this response in other discussions, and I understand that users who are not positive about the "Ukraine Discussion" have made "inappropriate comments". (and there may be a need to report them in a separate support ticket).
With that understood, the "content of the discussion so far" is food for thought, not only for the Ukrainian people, but also for some Russian users and those who want to understand the situation.
It would be a great loss to remove it, as it would be valuable for the fact-checking aspect.
After it's gone, there could be a huge increase in the number of bad kids who can lie all they want.
The supporter is dealing appropriately with some unavoidable emotional reactions.
And it is in these interactions that we may learn the "circumstances" of the case.
📝1stClose
📝2nd (unclose)
In the second exchange, I also wrote about "what I know."
Given the circumstances, I think that "response" is not an option. (Addressing the overall crisis of SG's users)
📝Kappa Comment
Whether it is you or 📝's contributor, I just can't continue additional Ukraine matters here, but the said article is still there, so I feel that we can create a like-minded group on Steam or create a group on another social network to share our previous interactions and then make gifts and educate other users about the necessary information without violating SG's guidelines.
As is obvious, neither SteamGifts' management nor its supporters are doing this because they don't like someone else.
It is clear from the first post of the guidelines and from the comments of supporters and community members both inside and outside of the organization that there are many problems with these issues.
For example, the "assholes" who interfere with all activities of a community whose business and pleasure is to inconvenience others in order to gain "profit" or "power" by reason of war, religion, politics, or any other issue. I think this is a tentative response in dealing with the "bastards".
Creating a discussion to migrate the "topic" outside of SteamGifts is also an option.
Discord, for example, is an easy way to do this, although some users may be banned for "violent" or "hate speech".
We are entering a time when it is "difficult" to speak about "difficult matters" on the planet, because there are those who are "physically obstructing" the "conversation" and the "community".
Maybe we need to have more than one place for communication and consultation.
In any case, there is no need to stop SG and your friends will remain your friends.
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Why? What has he done to you?
Or are you pretending to act "cool" or something?
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so you continue to remain silent about the bot problem?
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they can't even impose measures regarding their latest rulechanges, how do you think they can handle an even bigger problem?
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Gosh, the whole thread and it's subsequent discourse is giving me flashbacks to a site I moderated fifteen or so years ago...
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It needs to be said that posts containing highly controversial or illegal content can not only result in legal trouble for individual users but it can also result in SteamGifts getting censored by nations with strict telecommunications regulatory authorities. An entire nation of users could lose access if one bad user is allowed to get away with inappropriate behavior.
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Potentially any country with a rating below 70 but more likely the ones below 40.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_on_the_Net
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_and_surveillance_by_country#Internet_censorship_and_surveillance_by_continent
A specific example would be if CRAZY463708 continues to violate Pakistani law, the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (who is already investigating him) could end up blocking access to SteamGifts.
https://twitter.com/PTAofficialpk/status/1713488734916600102
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Telecommunication_Authority#Blocked_Content
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A specific example would be if CRAZY463708 continues to violate Pakistani law, the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (who is already investigating him)
I see you continue to spread your contempt and hatred for everyone to see
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Ormax3, You keep saying hatred, I don't think it means what you think it means.
Technically, I do hate hypocrites but shouldn't we all?
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Honestly i've just a sincere question to those who post political posts on steamgifts.
Please why here and not on Reddit / 4chan / Twitter ?
You've more chance to find people interested about what you wanna talk on these platforms.
Do you want to convert uninterested people to some political views ?
Is it more motivating to talk with uninterested people than to talk with people interested by politic ?
What if i give you the boeuf bourguignon recipe ?
Heat the beef meat in a pan with butter. Add some flour.
Add in a pressure cooker some potatoes, some onions, garlic, some carots, the beef meat, 1 bouquet garni and 1 liter of red wine.
Cook under pression for 1 hour.
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I would assume a person who is not interested in politics would not post in a thread about politics be it here or anywhere else.
But i can agree that in a dedicated politic forum the chances are proably higher to talk to people that are on avarage more knowledgable about politics then here.
And if you would open a topic about some recipes and cooking tips maybe i would engage in it. The chances me doing so would be higher when it is something i am not used to. Authentic food prep from another country is all ways a good source to expirence same core ingrediants made into something different.
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Yes uninterested people obviously won't post about politic if they're not interested in.
But the threads are on the main page, they're forced to acknowledge the existence (of these threads).
It's like if people pray God in the street, you're not forced to interact with them, but obviously you're forced to acknowledge the existence (of these people who pray in the public space). And they'll tell you "you're not forced to interact with us, just ignore".
But isn't it hypocritical ?
They do it so you see them pray. They could do it inside their church/temple/mosquee, but no they want you to see it even if you don't interact. Is it political from them that they want you to see them in the public space if you're not interested ? Of course yes !
You would say it's not a problem but here in France we don't like that. It's a historical specificity of our culture to not like that.
So there is a tolerance for people who pray in the street, or spread awareness in the street about anything, as long as no violence or agressivity is involved, but it's a tolerance. And besides, State gives them a few days a year with a permit, they can't do it every day.
As soon as there's violence, aggressivity or polarization, i understand why the police have to get them off the streets. By force.
Admins already decided and i don't think they will change their mind, but i could vote for subforums with content not visible from the main page.
- Steamgifts and gaming general discussions
- Steamgifts puzzles and events
- Steamgifts and gaming help, i wanna build a new PC
- Other hobbies, your last haircut, my parents left me alone to travel the world, etc.
- Global opinions not about gaming (politic / religion / etc.) / Sensible topics (ban for gore)
Something like that... or something else !! :p
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Having a sub forum where all the "not wanted" stuff would land without showing on the top discussions? I think hardly anyone would mind that happening, me included.
I for myself are just against the general wording of the new guideline and the concern about the possibilitie to use the new tool as blanket ban from now on to all topics (past/present/future) that may be seen as controversial and divisive in the future while doing almost nothing against the persons who made said topics hostile and toxic.
Guideline had all ready contained hate speech and gore content as not allowed. Yes for me celebrating terror attacks would had counted as hate speech as well. Adding it by word does not hurt though.
I allready wrote and explained (first page) in this thread why i think that politics/religion and sexualitiy are part of gaming and game making so i spare you from doing it again. ;)
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Admins said the guideline will be refined with time. They could abuse this new guideline but really i don't think they want to.
They probably just hope to restore the original spirit of this website.
You're right politic and sexuality are part of gaming, but i don't hate Chinese after a BF4 game, or Russian after a counter strike game (even if i'm sure this last statement could make laugh a lot of players).
And similarly i hope nobody will hate the French after having seen the last John Wick ! ;)
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Is it more motivating to talk with uninterested people than to talk with people interested by politic?
Uhm, see that's your mistake. We talk about politics with other people interested in politics. Easy, isn't it?
And generally speaking, politics matters to everyone and everywhere. So if people frequently engage at any place it's quite logical that politics will come up too. Especially at a place like this one, with a very diverse audience.
Now that I answered your serious question answer mine: If you aren't interested, why is it such an impossible challenge for you to ignore something you claim to not be interested in?
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No i don't think the politic people here just talk to people interested in politic, but it can be a very french opinion :
Here in France there are places to celebrate your religion and your identity but the public space is neutral and secular.
For example if you're a christian, it's better considered that you celebrate God inside your church.
But there are some who approach the people in the street to convert them, it's tolerated but obviously it's not the place for that.
Simply told, i consider steamgifts as a neutral and secular space, and i don't like much the behavior to try to convert in the street.
To answer specifically i never answered in the LGBTQ+, Ramadan, Russo-Ukrainian, Israelo-Palestinian main threads
and you've never seen me answer to Russo-Ukrainian war or Israelo-Palestinian even inside this CG thread,
so you can't know my opinion about this because i just think it's just none of your business to know it on a gaming site.
However i acknowledge that these 4 threads are not sensible at the same degree,
because the LGBTQ+ and Ramadan don't implicate that they've an enemy,
it can be a festive celebration of their identity and it's nice of them, despite their specific identity or difficulties, to be nice to others too, it obviously attracts mutual sympathy
while the other two obviously consider each other enemies and as CG explained these ones inherently contain explicit violence.
Now i can see how 1 thread can appeal to another thread etc. Because obviously seeing Xmas event, some would say why not LGBTQ awareness, and then from that both events, muslims would say why not Ramadan then, and then from that, why not threads about war ? Because these threads appear in that order on steamgifts.
Mods have to draw a limit somewhere, i think but it's just an opinion that the limit is the benevolence towards others, is it done to be kind to others, yes/no ? Yes -> no problem / No -> problem
And in short words, except some answers inside this thread, i'll just continue to ignore the sensible threads.
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Well, it's because this is the big thing that is currently happening, and like with any hot topic it will find it's way onto big forums online. Which makes sense. Unless there are guidelines that forbid such polarizing content from being posted, it will be present. And the issue isn't spreading awareness about the hot subject; it's that people in those threads went too far into the hate anyone from a certain nation, aka acting xenophbic. And after the topics were closed and they were told their behavior was not okay, they acted confused. So, from what I can gather, the main reason the topics were closed is because people lack the power to spread awareness without spreading hate towards one another. And SG isn't a place to spread hate towards any group of random people you don't even know because of a certain trait they have (in this case, their nationality). And what's stopping these people to stick to only xenophobia? They can go for the hat-trick and act sexist and homophobic toward people from Russia. And as we all know, random people seeing others hate them for simply existing never backfires.
Also, since these topics had plenty of gore (it is war after all), I understand why mods didn't want to moderate those links anymore. They didn't sign up for that, as this is primarily a gaming-rented website. So, nowhere in the job description does it say you need to stomach gore content to be a mod here. It's sad to see so many people didn't even care about that, and were selfishly complaining about the new guidelines, as if cg and the staff are planning to ban anything non-gaming related from being discussed. The only things they banned and will ban are topics (and hopefully people) that only contribute to spreading hate towards others.
Now, why is that controversial and a reason for one of the website's biggest givers to leave? It's a mystery to me, but I guess when you have polarizing topics like the current war, it's impossible for people to look at things objectively. And objectively speaking, that Ukro vs. Russian discussion awarness thread stopped spreading awarness and instead heavily promoted hate towards anyone from Russia, demonizing and dehuminizing them with the constant use of the word orc. They aren't people; they are trash, so their lives are worthless. That's what was happening in that thread. No civil discussions, because they are almost impossible on online forums when polarizing topics like this are at play. And I mean, we had a whole post about how SG should "sanction" Russia by banning all Russian users from it. Why? Well, they are Russian, so that's why.
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For someone who is against polarizing you don't really seem to be doing a very good job...
Hypocrite much?
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Uh-huh... Guess you didn't even read my message or are playing some weird angle, as I didn't say I'm against polarizing topics be posted on SteamGifts. I don't really mind them. However, I am against the xenophobia shown in those threads towards random people of X nationality these users don't even know. I think 4chan, Twitter and Reddit are far better places to find echo-chambers where you can do that than SteamGifts.
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Hypocrite much?
Medice, cura te ipsum
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Yeh, and I also clearly said I was attacking him on purpose on a personal level. I knew what I was doing. Nothing hypocrite about it. If someone is pure evil and If he fits the stereotype shoe it it perfect for a personal attack. Been suspended for it already..
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Yeh, and I also clearly said I was attacking him on purpose on a personal level. I knew what I was doing. Nothing hypocrite about it.
If he fits the stereotype shoe it it perfect for a personal attack.
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Do you make a habit out of quoting things you only read but leave the things out you don't want to read? As you did it twice in a row.
I am not interested in your foot fetish, that's gross.
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you mean quoting someone's insults to entire races and religions showing their true colors? why not, especially when they go around calling other people hypocrites
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No. I mean you went trough great lengths to make me the bad guy. You only posted posts of me, but not of whom I replied to
You just quoted me, but you deliberately left out the part that I know he is true evil. Which i said for a very good reason. But they aren't visible on your screenshot as they are conveniently left out,
CRAZY is more see trough then the winner of a wet t-shirt contest. You can also side with terrorism all you want. They even have a rule for it now. The crazy terrorist guideline. But I will never side with "bullies" am not sorry for what I said to certain people.
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I simply show your words where you insult whole nations and faiths, applaud desecrating holy books, and somehow you still justify it as ok, because "evil"??
yet now you play the victim card depicting me as a bully siding with terrorism who's out to make you look bad? you're certainly doing a good of that on your own.
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No, I insult certain people of nations and faith because of their reactions not because of their believes. Yes, I do use personal insults to evil people. I don't applaud burning of certain books. Books are meant to be read. Of course it isn't nice and it is meant to be provoking. I am against it. But the reaction is worse and gave the perpetrators exactly what they wanted..
If a burning of some book whatever it may be causes trouble at embassies and "protests" out of anger. Yeh, then I feel free to ridicule it.
I am not playing the victim of anything. I live free in the Netherlands. But I do feel the need to at least verbally protect the actual victims where others celebrate terrorism.
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Is it really judgemental to point out what is obvious?
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You are welcome.
Luckily it isn't only me.
You actually managed to get a guideline about terrorism. I call it "the crazy terrorism guideline". as it kinda crazy its needed to be pointed out terrorism is bad.
It is impressive,. not in a positive way, but still impressive as you got what you wanted.
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Thanks for this complete answer, it's more than i could even have hoped for ! :D
I agree that the awareness is tolerable, as long as it brings something to steamgifts (LGBTQ+ without polarization but with giveaways, Ramadan / Christmas without proselytism but with giveaways)
But not the hate including versus Russians (and even less the gore obviously poor mods !!)
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It feels like cg should be suspended for posting topic about sensitive subject.
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It's not possible to suspend yourself, or someone with higher rank. Only people below in your "peck order".
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If you read the guidelines, it's:
up for the mod team to decide
"If we [they] identify a sensitive subject or event that is causing such a problem, we will first try to use our existing guidelines to keep the conversation civil. " which they try
There is no mention of suspension added regarding to the new additions.
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you did the right thing but unfortunately this became another spam thread now full of politics.
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And that will happen again and again until the most obvious trolls are banned. A rule is worth nothing if breaking it has no consequences or those consequences are so minimal that they don't work as a deterrent.
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I'm disappointed with the new guidelines and concerned about censorship here.
Once you start with it, the road is downhill.
I won't go to Reddit because I feel steamgifts as my community.
I know my opinion it's a drop into the ocean but I wanted to express it, at least for now that I can.
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Much time and energy spent to voice their opinion by a lot of people in a discussion with no tangible outcome in sight. After the dust has settled all will be same old, same old.
Positive from the perspective of cg: it deflects from pressing matters like taking action against autojoiners which could be implemented without putting more strain on moderation.
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In fact that would lighten the load on the moderators.
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To be honest ALL politics should be banned here: while it might have viable to discuss it in a civilized way before, but ever since a few years ago , mostly from around 2015 (might have started from the early 2010s), the state of politics in general just went from "bad, but won't cause anything too heinous" to "absolutely awful".
The majority (BUT not all) of political discussions nowadays consist of the following:
- Literal bots, LLMs arguing with each other, mostly looking to stir crap up/serve as engagement bait.
- Blind fanatics who treat their party as their favorite sports team who can do no wrong with the potential to become very violent.
- Opportunistic trolls with (mostly) no allegiance who have the same goals as the first group. Sometimes get paid to do so, but plenty of volunteers too.
Doesn't seem like a very healthy recipe for productive discussion. To be honest, I really don't see any upsides to allowing these groups to fester on a site that is dedicated to giving away Steam games for free. If you want to discuss politics, go to your local discussion forum (in real life, just to make sure) or try to enjoy the cesspits of Twitter and Reddit.
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Decision that easiest for mods was chosen. Who could have guessed it? I am shocked, shocked that it was preferred to case by case moderation. That troll that started Palestinian thread didn't even get suspension. Lmao, and i seen mods suspended people and driven them from this site, people that just created GAs. Bravo! Eh, who cares, we at the beginning of WW3 anyway.
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Eh, who cares, we at the beginning of WW3 anyway.
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Well, he did actually get suspended for shitposting initially. Didn't help, unfortunately. So its not like staff didn't try doing something. I mean staff did great job moderating and suspending trolls in the Ukraine thread. But it wasn't that bloated with extremism though.
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It's quite sad to see you - who obviously have strong feelings about the war in Ukraine, but managed to remain civil even when answering to trolls - leave the site, while those who fling insults at each other (and not just about Ukraine or Russia) seem to continue to do so unchecked :/
For all it's worth I also believe that despite all the insults and ad hominems, closing that thread wasn't the right solution. And people getting "tired" of the war news like it was some kind of show that went out of season really need an empathy check.
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closing that thread wasn't the right solution.
I have to agree and the conclusion is #SGdoesntstandwithUkraineanymore
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I really hate to see you go but I understand and respect your decision. Your mental and emotional well-being should always come first. I'm sorry that the actions of some trolls and the callous, lazy attitude of the site's management has left you feeling not welcome to discuss a topic that's so close to your heart and is causing you such pain.
I wish you and the people of Ukraine all the best.
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So sad that good people are leaving SG.
Thank you for making Ukraine Awarness thread.
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This is not "politics", this is life condition for many.
"World War."
The term began to be used after the end of World War I and World War II.
After all, people put signs on "everyday life" and "living conditions" after the fact.
Nothing happens in their place. World peace and everyday life continues. There is a "normality bias" that keeps us thinking so.
Maybe what happened here will go down in history when things come to a head.🤔
I won't name names, but there have been some posters in the past 2 or 3 months who have posted things that are not good for fact-checking purposes.
I have thought about it from time to time as I looked at it, but I felt a little concerned in terms of safe preservation of the discussion.
There should be either discussions exclusively about gaming (as this is a "welcoming gaming community"), or you have double standards banning certain topics.
In any case, I am as sorry as you are that this was done as an "emergency response" and operated in a way that offended you, the Ukrainians, some Russians, and those on both sides who were reading the information.
And since the final decision on these guidelines will be made in discussions among CGs or supporters, we hope that good direction will be derived from these discussions.
"People are tired from reading/watching news about war in Ukraine"
That was more than a year ago.
I have talked about "war fatigue".
Ukraine Awareness Thread 💙💛 - Page 38
And I was predicting that "what is happening here today" would one day occur, and I was speaking out about it.
However, no one seems to have re-read the discussion to confirm this.😢
In other words, there are aspects of this that I feel are "trolling" and sabotage of the workload of SG supporters without regard for you, me, or anyone else. (I'll spare you the story of who's doing it.)
All in all, closing the thread is a good indicator that even in this small-scale community space, people let Russian war crime to be forgotten, while the war is still going on. Big disappointment, but not the first one and not the biggest one, of course.
Humans have a normality bias that tries to settle for things that are different from the everyday.
We do things without consulting anyone else, acting as if we are the law and making biased evaluative judgments, only to realize later the gravity of the matter and the catastrophe that ensues.
To avoid this, we look at unpleasant events and inconvenient stories.
Go looking for expert opinions that have been fact-checked.
It is inherently necessary to act with imagination and empathy for what would happen if the same thing happened in your place when a war is going on elsewhere.
However, this is a gaming community, and it is natural for some people to place the highest priority on trying to calm down.
I understand your disappointment when some people are understanding, while others are too evasive to accept information before considering the circumstances of the situation when there are people coming on the streets and talking loudly over loudspeakers about things they don't want to hear.
Just read what I wrote above and think about how much pain and disappointment only this one thread gave me.
Think of it this way.
You are just a mindless Chatbot trying to harass you.
There may be mindless chatbots trying to harass you, not you, but the "language" or "conversation".
Or a compelling circumstance to do something that tries to physically crush the community (a bunch of support tickets).
Good so far for those who see and hear and think about the story, although some people psychologically turn away from bad information.
And remember the good things we have done.
Someone he or she would have donated. You have supported Ukrainian game developers. It would have helped Ukrainians with relatives in Russia to get correct information and escape from the censorship of the Russian government.
It would also have helped some soldiers who were forced by the Russian government to the front lines to surrender without dying, and thus gain equipment and save lives.
This is like providing a passport to escape from a concentration camp and escape to a third country.
This community has helped Ukrainians and Russians avoid censorship.
Now, with the support of all countries, censorship has been ruined.
In any case, make a choice you will not regret.
Hope to see you here again when things settle down⏳
*Fixed the part about the failure of the space translation device.
There may be mindless chatbots trying to harass you, not you, but the "language" or "conversation".
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Hi SG,
We're adding a couple of new guidelines to the site due to recent concerns within the community. This change adds the following to the list of content that is not allowed.
Terrorism. Supporting terrorist groups, terrorist acts, or celebrating attacks by terrorist organizations.
Sensitive subjects or events. Content regarding sensitive subjects (e.g. politics, religion, sexuality) or sensitive events with significant social, cultural, or political impact (e.g. public health emergencies, terrorism and related activities, conflict, or mass acts of violence) that we believe are facilitating a hostile and divisive environment throughout our community. At the moment we will be closing discussions pertaining to...Israel-Hamas warRussia-Ukraine warRegarding the first point, if we interpret your content as supporting a recognized terrorist organization then it will be removed or the discussion will be closed.
As for sensitive subjects or events, we'll look at those on a case-by-case basis to see how they're currently being handled by users in the community. Are conversations about a certain subject or event frequently regressing into hostility between the participants? Is the content the source of an unusual amount of conflict throughout the site? If we identify a sensitive subject or event that is causing such a problem, we will first try to use our existing guidelines to keep the conversation civil. In exceptional cases where this proves to be ineffective or infeasible, we will consider adding the subject to the list above. We will moderate items on the list by closing existing discussions along with new ones that attempt to bring the subject back into the spotlight. We may also need to remove comments if a user is trying to shift the focus of an existing discussion to these subjects.
We want SG to continue being a welcoming place to both new and existing users and I think the new additions above are important in helping us maintain that atmosphere.
Edit: The sensitive subjects or events guideline mentioned above has been revised based on community feedback. Please read more about the changes.
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